Christ’s words vs. Paul’s words?

[AVBunyan]

Several passages: Example John Ch 5, Ch 10 Jesus preached that He had come to give life.

OK then - what did Jesus say one had to do or believe in order to get that life?

God bless

 

[mutzrein]

Several passages: Example John Ch 5, Ch 10 Jesus preached that He had come to give life.

OK then - what did Jesus say one had to do or believe in order to get that life?

God bless

Come to Him

Ditto

 

[xicali]

Although we have our doctrinal differences, I'm pretty much with you on this one AV.

The gospel that Paul preached is the gospel of Jesus Christ since he did indeed meet Christ and received revelation from Him.

Thanks Mutz - OK a challenge (friendly challenge)
Show me from scripture Christ's message to the Jews regarding himself while on earth.

There is reasoing to my madness :-D

God bless

Several passages: Example John Ch 5, Ch 10 Jesus preached that He had come to give life.

Hello AV and Mutz...

Is this a trick question AV? Heheheheh... well here are a couple of them:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not." John 1:11

and...

42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders [The Jew] rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our [Gentile] eyes?

43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you [The Jew], and given to a nation [The Gentile] bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44. And whosoever [Jew or Gentile] shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall [Not a pretty sight], it will grind him to powder. Matthew 21:42-44

 

[mutzrein]

Although we have our doctrinal differences, I'm pretty much with you on this one AV.

The gospel that Paul preached is the gospel of Jesus Christ since he did indeed meet Christ and received revelation from Him.

Thanks Mutz - OK a challenge (friendly challenge)
Show me from scripture Christ's message to the Jews regarding himself while on earth.

There is reasoing to my madness :-D

God bless

Several passages: Example John Ch 5, Ch 10 Jesus preached that He had come to give life.

Hello AV and Mutz...

Is this a trick question AV? Heheheheh... well here are a couple of them:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not." John 1:11

and...

42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders [The Jew] rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our [Gentile] eyes?

43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you [The Jew], and given to a nation [The Gentile] bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44. And whosoever [Jew or Gentile] shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall [Not a pretty sight], it will grind him to powder. Matthew 21:42-44

Tricky question or not - it doesn't matter. We're both walking along a path and at some stage there will be a gate. :wink:

 

[Georges]

I've been reading your PDF. I've only read the first 5 Chapters or so, but for the most part I find its arguments pretty weak. I still have a lot to read but I feel pretty confident that after all 430 pages of it I'll still be standing where I am now. Only with a greater understanding of the scripture I believe.

Uh huh....weak....which part?

As far as contradictions... One of your arguments is Paul preaches you dont have to do works, yet James says you do.

Paul...goes back and forth....he doesn't even know....Paul does say works....and then he says faith....playing both sides of the arguement....It is hard to accuse Paul he always leave an out.....He claims faith only...but....he did mention works once.... his butt is covered...

I think I covered this in another post but perhaps not. I don't see it as a contradiction.

Contradictrion....is when you say something, or promote something contrary to yourself, or others.... The most glaring...Paul say's it's ok (per se) to eath meat sacrificed to Idols....Jesus and James say it is not ok....was that one of the weak arguments you were stating?

Paul is saying your works aren't what save you, you can't win your way into heaven by being a good person because not one of us is good.

That's right....Jesus says opposite....check out the parable of the Sheep and Goats....that gives the idea of what works do....but then again, it is Jesus' words not Paul's...

He's not saying run a muck, do what ever you want because Grace has your back.

Uh...yes he is.....but then again he doesn't....he's smoke and mirrors....but the Ephesians figured him out....you'll see in further chapters.

James isn't saying works is part of what save you. He's telling us that our actions are a display of our true heart.

Wrong...James is saying works as in obeying Torah is what saves you....in effect you are coping (or trying to) Jesus's own actions..James is saying by your works you have faith that God will fulfill his promise to those who righteously try and keep his commandments.

It's the same with my wife, my actions show my true heart attitude, not that fact that I say I love you.

Uh huh....you may be the only one....any other wife would like to hear it...

She wouldn't believe me when I said it if I never did anything to display it. The two messages work together not against each other.

Nah...the pdf teaches that Paul taught anomia, or negating the Torah...Jesus warned against the man who would teach it....Paul taught it....Did or did Paul in his letters teach Torah abrogation....?

You can pick out a few versus through out the Bible to almost back up anything you want to profess to believe. You have to look at all of them on a subject in context to get the real message.

I do that exclusively.....

Keep reading.....I'd be interested in what you disagree with (specifics)......there can't be really anything unless you believe that Paul supercedes Jesus' own words....

 

[Georges]

1. Compared to Paul, Marcion considered the Gospels and other Epistles inferior and uninspired....right up your alley AV....

2. You were the one who said Paul's words over Christ's...right? If I'm wrong about the quote please correct me...

1. They are not inferior or uninspired - you misrepresent but actually I believe you misunderstand me.

2. In doctrinal matters yes because Christ himself told Paul to give out the latest instructions.

So says Paul....witnesses? not........Paul's own word...

Question Georges - do you still sacrifice lambs?

You've asked me that before....and I'll tell you once again....and probably again in the future....No...not required of Gentile Christians....and there is no Temple, just yet....

Still in the bible you know?

Yep...and guess what AV, sacrifices will resume again in the future....guess what AV...Messiah the prince in Eze 40-46 will do the sacrificing in the future Messianic Millennial Kingdom....

AV.........

 

[Lewis]

At any rate, I agree that the entire Scriptures are inspired by God and that God does not contradict Himself. Regards

But there are contradictions...yet...both are right.

Allow me to clarify if I may.

One example - I used it before but folks seem to miss it.

Repeat of earlier post above...

c. Gospels - before Christ died - Matt 6:14-15 You don't forgive - the Father will not forgive you
Paul - we have forgivenss now (Eph. 1:7) and it is not based upon our forgiving others (Eph. 4:32)

They both contradict - yet both are right - giving forgiveness in order to get forgivness is right under the Gospels prior to Calvary.

Today we don't get forgiveness by forgiving others - we have forgiveness because of Calvary -

Both different - both are right

There are many other examples also.

God bless

Yup AV, that is why you are supposed to caompare Scripture with Scrpture, and it always clears it self up/

 

[francisdesales]

At any rate, I agree that the entire Scriptures are inspired by God and that God does not contradict Himself. Regards

But there are contradictions...yet...both are right.

Yup AV, that is why you are supposed to caompare Scripture with Scrpture, and it always clears it self up/

Scripture does NOT always "clear itself up". Otherwise, we wouldn't have thousands of denominations, all claiming to be "bible-believing", but cannot agree on many basic issues. There are many concepts fundamental to Christianity that are not CLEARLY defined by Scripture alone, such as the Trinity.

Regards

 

[Bruchko]

Georges,

Have no fear, I'll get back to you about my thoughts in detail when I'm finished with the PDF. As far as my wife, she does like to hear me tell her that I lover her. I wasn't saying she didn't. I was saying if I only told her that I loved her, but never did anything to show it she wouldn't believe me.

I'm just curious, out of the people who believe along the same lines as you do. How many healings, raising of the dead, casting out of demons and various other miracles and wonders are you aware of?

 

[Georges]

Georges,

Have no fear, I'll get back to you about my thoughts in detail when I'm finished with the PDF.

Glad to hear it....However, the Mods will not allow it in the public forum (wish they would). I was adviced not to open a public discussion on the pdf...Still, when you do respond....do it PM and in short bits....As I found out when J pmed me with several paragraphs, my responses were as long and for some reason the computer kicks me off line. The result, I lost at least 2 hrs worth of typing in response....that was aggravating...

In short...keep it short....For example your thoughts on each chapter and not the whole book as each chapter has it's own subject...


As far as my wife, she does like to hear me tell her that I lover her. I wasn't saying she didn't. I was saying if I only told her that I loved her, but never did anything to show it she wouldn't believe me.

I'm just curious, out of the people who believe along the same lines as you do.

I don't know anybody (personally) that has the same viewpoint as I...All of my friends and family are strict Paulinist Trinitarians....

How many healings, raising of the dead, casting out of demons and various other miracles and wonders are you aware of?

Not sure what you are getting at....but I'll answer...James, Peter, John, Jude...the list goes on....

Looking forward to your responses concerning the pdf....hopefully, they will be chapter oriented...

 

[Lewis]

At any rate, I agree that the entire Scriptures are inspired by God and that God does not contradict Himself. Regards

But there are contradictions...yet...both are right.

Yup AV, that is why you are supposed to caompare Scripture with Scrpture, and it always clears it self up/

Scripture does NOT always "clear itself up". Otherwise, we wouldn't have thousands of denominations, all claiming to be "bible-believing", but cannot agree on many basic issues. There are many concepts fundamental to Christianity that are not CLEARLY defined by Scripture alone, such as the Trinity.

Regards

Who told you that ? Because that is wrong.

 

[francisdesales]

Scripture does NOT always "clear itself up". Otherwise, we wouldn't have thousands of denominations, all claiming to be "bible-believing", but cannot agree on many basic issues. There are many concepts fundamental to Christianity that are not CLEARLY defined by Scripture alone, such as the Trinity.

Who told you that ? Because that is wrong.

What is wrong? That there are NOT numerous Protestants who cannot agree on even the fundamentals of what IS a Christian??? If the Trinity was so "clear" from Scripture, why did it take hundreds of years and many different heretical viewpoints to determine what God actually revealed about His inner life, what we call "Trinity"? On this very website, we have "Christians" of good will who are Unitarian. They claim to be "bible-believing". Apparently, people have different interpretations of the same Scriptures, meaning that Scriptures do NOT "clear themselves up".

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

Apparently, people have different interpretations of the same Scriptures, meaning that Scriptures do NOT "clear themselves up".
Regards

This is great... :-D

This is so because....

1. Many professing "Christians" are still unregenerate...
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
So therefore...they can't understand the fundementals of justification, deity, sanctification, etc. They like the law.

2. They (saved and lost) have multiple, conflicting authorities...
a. At least a 100 multiple conflicting "bibles" to choose from
b. At 50 multiple, conflicting texts/manuscripts/lexicons to choose from
c. On top of that they have their church fathers, tradition, colleges, seminaries, professors, etc. all who have no final authority

So...you mix unregenrate folks and saved folks with conflicting and corrupted "bibles" and you get...

CHAOS and CONFUSION!!!!

God bless 8-)

 

[mutzrein]

Mmmm - yes there is truth in that alright!