iLOVE
Member
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Christ didn't die for all
- Thread starter Classik
- Start date
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.
Davies
Member
I'm sorry, Agape, you feel that way. If I were to say I was wrong, and that God only loved those who believe in Him, I think this would make God small in my eyes. What's amazing about God is that He loved His enemies which makes the rejection of His grace all the more deserving of eternal punishment. Don't you think that God has loved the world? That's what John 3:16 says. Here's another thing that is amazing: Because God has so loved the world, it's amazing that the world has rejected Him. I would hope you would have grace for those who think God has offerred salvation to everyone.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
...God our Savior, <SUP class=versenum>4 </SUP>who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
- Davies
Agape
Member
Can you please show me where I said that God LOVED only those who believed in Him.
Thanks.
What you say here is true, but you miss the point.
Jesus died for everyone but we have to choose to accept that to receive it.
Pizzaguy
Member
He died for all, and left it up to the individual to accept His gift of salvation.
The old and new testaments, as well as His own words make that very clear.
Agape
Member
Agreed! So does that mean that Christ's atonement was limited or unlimited?
Davies
Member
Hi Agape,
In post #14, you stated, "Only those who believe in Christ and confess Him as Lord have their sins atoned for." This is a cap to what appears to be your disagreement with Classik. You first ask Classik for affirmation from Scripture to support his point of view. Then you say, "All above scriptures are AGAINST what's being stated in OP in that they prove that "there is a condition", unless I misunderstood your point in OP classik!" So, what I naturally understand is that you disagree with what Calssik has stated, that, "HE died for all..." If this isn't the case, then I ask you, do you think that Christ died for all?
Now you didn't say that God loved only those who believe in Him, but we all know in John 3:16 where it says that God gave His Son to mean that Jesus came to the earth, lived a sinless life, and offered Himself a sacrifice...for the world, that whoever believes shall not perish, but have everlasting life. God showed His love for all by dieing on the cross and providing the means for being redeemed. We wouldn't blame God if a person isn't redeemed. If you hold to God loved everyone, then you have to acknowledge that God died for everyone, and that's how God so loved the world.
- Davies
Davies
Member
Edward,
That's agape!
This made me think of the song, That's Amore. But I know we're talking about something a bit more meaningful than, "When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie."
- Davies
Last edited by a moderator:
Agape
Member
No, I don't
Because if Christ died for all, all should go to heaven. You and I know that is not what the Scriptures teach. In order to resolve this paradox, we have to take into account all that the Bible teaches on this topic.
Now, on a different thread, you made a comment that surprised me!
Amen!
Now, if you believe that "the work was completed on the cross" and that "not all" go to heaven, how can you say that Christ died for all? Let us think about it for a minute. If you believe that our Lord secured my salvation and your salvation, and the salvation of all our sisters and brothers in Christ, in that His atonement was full and complete (John 19:30), then you believe that His atonement was limited to those who would believe. On the other hand, if Christ died for all but not all go to heaven, in that we must sort of "activate" that atonement by our faith, then His atonement was "incomplete" or "unfinished" or potential" and we are actually the ones who save ourselves.
Explain to me why "I have to" acknowledge incorrect hermeneutics leading to an incorrect conclusion. John 3:16 says that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son! That's how deep God's love is. So deep that He gave His only begotten son. Then, let us look at the rest of this scripture: "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life". There is a condition!
As I said above, we need to take into consideration all that the Bible teaches on a given topic, let us consider the following scriptures.
--According to Matthew 1:21, Jesus died to save whom from their sins? His people or the world?
--Did Jesus lay down His life for His sheep or the world according to John 10:15?
--In Ephesians 5:25, husbands are exhorted to love their wives, as Christ loved and gave Himself up for whom? The world or His church?
There are many more scriptures that substantiate this truth, that Christ's atonement was limited to those would believe. I don't want to start a debate on limited atonement vs. unlimited atonement but thought I should explain why I believe in the doctrine of limited atonement.
Classik
Member
Ok. Who and who didn't Christ die for??? Two criminals flanked Christ on the cross. What do you think about this account??? One said: Lord receive me and the other didn't bother about this - he didn't care at all. If this man had also said: save me Lord - he would have been saved too. He died for the two; however only one recieved him. How? Choice
Davies
Member
Hi Agape,
You have called me out on something I have struggled with more this year than any time as a Christian. What you are referring to speaks to choice as Classik has pointed out. I use to have a stronger view of man's choice even though I knew God is sovereign in all things. Why does God save some and not others? The Bible does tell us that God desires for all men to come to repentance, so why doesn't all men come to repentance then? Some would say, 'Because a person has the ability to choose or not choose to put his faith in Jesus.' I have come to reject this. I know that faith is a gift, and I understand that we do nothing to merit salvation. When we believe and put our faith and trust in Jesus, we do it because God has granted it to us. So, this begs the question, why does God grant to some and not to others? My conclusion: I don't know. When I witness to someone, I tell them that God has provided the means for pardon and eternal life. I believe the invitation is to go out to everyone. What's amazing is the invitation goes out to the worst of us. It is a mystery why people would reject the Gospel because God's arm is not so weak as to not be able to reach the lowest person on Earth. I do understand that many people will not repent and put their faith in Jesus. These people stand in their sins and are not forgiven. Because Jesus teaches us to love our enemies, I don't believe God created anyone just to damn him/her. God's council is His own, and He makes His decision without us, and we have to be content to leave it that way, or else we might be found contending with God.
I wouldn't mind going over Scripture to try and understand God's criteria for saving a person, but at the moment, I can't I completely understand it. I can say I understand why you think the atonement was limited, but if there is any limitation to God's atonement, it's because of His holiness, and not because we are more powerful than God.
- Davies
Mike
Member
Davies, please get out of my head. I know your struggle, because I battle with it every day. I cannot bring myself to believe either extremes of free will or predestination. I read the same verses that lead those in both of these camps to opposing conclusions. Thank you for expressing so eloquently the paradox of us "tweeners".
Deborah13
Member
John 16:8-15
King James Version (KJV)
<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Of sin, because they believe not on me;
If we do not believe on Him we are still in our sin, with the sinful nature of man. We are not regenerated as new creatures in Christ and not indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Not one with Christ. Therefore, we cannot have eternal life with Him.
I personally believe it is the only sin that will keep us from eternal life with Him. Rejection of the Savior.
I believe it is by His gift of faith that we can believe but that doesn't mean we will use the faith He has given us. I think one can still reject Him. Can we actually say that we always use the measure of faith that each believer is given? Jesus said that a mustard size faith can move a mountain.
King James Version (KJV)
<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Of sin, because they believe not on me;
If we do not believe on Him we are still in our sin, with the sinful nature of man. We are not regenerated as new creatures in Christ and not indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Not one with Christ. Therefore, we cannot have eternal life with Him.
I personally believe it is the only sin that will keep us from eternal life with Him. Rejection of the Savior.
I believe it is by His gift of faith that we can believe but that doesn't mean we will use the faith He has given us. I think one can still reject Him. Can we actually say that we always use the measure of faith that each believer is given? Jesus said that a mustard size faith can move a mountain.
Davies
Member
Hi Deborah,
Even though we fail often and sin, just as Peter denied Jesus three times, Jesus intercedes for us so that our faith may not fail. We really don't have the ability in and of ourselves to remain faithful. Why am I faithful at all? Because of the grace of God and His patience, so unlike myself. I think the more we realize how vulnerable we are, and how little we know, the more we will trust Jesus who we know is perfect in all His ways. The unbeliever strives to be a better person, not realizing the standard he's setting is way too low. The believer has given up trying to justify himself by what he does, rather he gazes upon the wondrous kindness of God, and then he does things out of gratitude.
1 John 2:2
New King James Version (NKJV)
<sup class="versenum">2 </sup>And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
- Davies
Even though we fail often and sin, just as Peter denied Jesus three times, Jesus intercedes for us so that our faith may not fail. We really don't have the ability in and of ourselves to remain faithful. Why am I faithful at all? Because of the grace of God and His patience, so unlike myself. I think the more we realize how vulnerable we are, and how little we know, the more we will trust Jesus who we know is perfect in all His ways. The unbeliever strives to be a better person, not realizing the standard he's setting is way too low. The believer has given up trying to justify himself by what he does, rather he gazes upon the wondrous kindness of God, and then he does things out of gratitude.
1 John 2:2
New King James Version (NKJV)
<sup class="versenum">2 </sup>And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
- Davies
1Ti_4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
To me this means that God's salvation is offered to all men, especially to those who believe. Those who resist the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives will hardern their hearts. But as we pray, God will not give up on them and make every effort to knock down the walls of their resistance.
To me this means that God's salvation is offered to all men, especially to those who believe. Those who resist the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives will hardern their hearts. But as we pray, God will not give up on them and make every effort to knock down the walls of their resistance.