Christ was formed in the beginning of creation by Yahwah.

[Free]

I quoted scriptures, and gave some Papal history, and for that you accused me of blasphemy.

Not for quoting scripture nor the Papal history, but for this: “Even Yahwah our Heavenly Father had a beginning.”

Even atheists can quote scripture, but it doesn’t mean that they have understood it. You haven’t understood the verse you posted and so blaspheme God by what you think it is saying.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
Isa 43:12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God. (NIV)

In context, not that it is even needed, God is comparing himself to the man-made gods of the foreign nations. In no way whatsoever is he saying that he was formed or came into being at some point. That is blasphemous.

Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. (ESV)

Psa 93:2 Your throne is established from of old; you are from everlasting. (ESV)

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (ESV)

Rom 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith— (ESV)

1Ti 1:17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (ESV)

1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. (ESV)

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. (ESV)

Rev 10:5 And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven
Rev 10:6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, (ESV)

 

[CherubRam]

Not for quoting scripture nor the Papal history, but for this: “Even Yahwah our Heavenly Father had a beginning.”

Even atheists can quote scripture, but it doesn’t mean that they have understood it. You haven’t understood the verse you posted and so blaspheme God by what you think it is saying.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
Isa 43:12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God. (NIV)

In context, not that it is even needed, God is comparing himself to the man-made gods of the foreign nations. In no way whatsoever is he saying that he was formed or came into being at some point. That is blasphemous.

Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. (ESV)

Psa 93:2 Your throne is established from of old; you are from everlasting. (ESV)

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (ESV)

Rom 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith— (ESV)

1Ti 1:17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (ESV)

1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. (ESV)

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. (ESV)

Rev 10:5 And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven
Rev 10:6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, (ESV)

So why is there scriptures that make Yahshua equal to Yahwah?


Pope is God on Earth

April 30, 1922, Pope Pius XI said, “You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on Earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am god on Earth.” Revelation Four Views, A Parallel Commentary. pg 288

“God Himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of His priest, and either not to pardon or to pardon according as they refuse or give absolution.---The sentence of the priest precedes, and God subscribes to it.” Dignities and Duties of the Priest, Vol 12, pg 27.


“The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.” Decretal De Translot Espiscop Cap


Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National, July 1895

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894

 

[Free]

So why is there scriptures that make Yahshua equal to Yahwah?


Pope is God on Earth

April 30, 1922, Pope Pius XI said, “You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on Earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am god on Earth.” Revelation Four Views, A Parallel Commentary. pg 288

“God Himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of His priest, and either not to pardon or to pardon according as they refuse or give absolution.---The sentence of the priest precedes, and God subscribes to it.” Dignities and Duties of the Priest, Vol 12, pg 27.


“The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.” Decretal De Translot Espiscop Cap


Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National, July 1895

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894

How does this address my post?

 

[CherubRam]

Not for quoting scripture nor the Papal history, but for this: “Even Yahwah our Heavenly Father had a beginning.”

Even atheists can quote scripture, but it doesn’t mean that they have understood it. You haven’t understood the verse you posted and so blaspheme God by what you think it is saying.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
Isa 43:12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God. (NIV)

In context, not that it is even needed, God is comparing himself to the man-made gods of the foreign nations. In no way whatsoever is he saying that he was formed or came into being at some point. That is blasphemous.

Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. (ESV)

Psa 93:2 Your throne is established from of old; you are from everlasting. (ESV)

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (ESV)

Rom 16:26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith— (ESV)

1Ti 1:17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (ESV)

1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. (ESV)

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. (ESV)

Rev 10:5 And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven
Rev 10:6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, (ESV)

Blasphemy is generally defined as the act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things, synonymous with irreverence and disrespect of God or Christ. According to Merriam-Webster, blasphemy is defined as “the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God.

 

[CherubRam]

How does this address my post?

You will have to put your think cap on for that.

 

[Free]

Blasphemy is generally defined as the act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things, synonymous with irreverence and disrespect of God or Christ. According to Merriam-Webster, blasphemy is defined as “the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God.

Exactly. Making God out to be less than he is is insulting.

You will have to put your think cap on for that.

I did and I was right; it didn’t address my post at all.

 

[CherubRam]

Exactly. Making God out to be less than he is is insulting.


I did and I was right; it didn’t address my post at all.

I repeated what God said about Himself. That means that you are making up your own truth.

 

[Free]

I repeated what God said about Himself. That means that you are making up your own truth.

It is not I who is making up his own truth. You quoted scripture but don’t understand what you quoted. Even atheists can do that. Once again, I can guarantee that you will not find a legitimate scholar or theologian who will agree with your interpretation. It is telling that you didn’t even address the context or the texts I provided.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. (ESV)

God is comparing himself to the man-made (formed) gods of the foreign nations. He is saying that he has always existed and they have not, which contradicts your interpretation of the passage. Other passages show that God has always existed:

Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. (ESV)

Psa 93:2 Your throne is established from of old; you are from everlasting. (ESV)

God has always existed. That is the only Christian position. A god who at one time didn't exist or who somehow is (irrationally) thought to have formed himself, is not the God of the Bible.

 

[CherubRam]

It is not I who is making up his own truth. You quoted scripture but don’t understand what you quoted. Even atheists can do that. Once again, I can guarantee that you will not find a legitimate scholar or theologian who will agree with your interpretation. It is telling that you didn’t even address the context or the texts I provided.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. (ESV)

God is comparing himself to the man-made (formed) gods of the foreign nations. He is saying that he has always existed and they have not, which contradicts your interpretation of the passage. Other passages show that God has always existed:

Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. (ESV)

Psa 93:2 Your throne is established from of old; you are from everlasting. (ESV)

God has always existed. That is the only Christian position. A god who at one time didn't exist or who somehow is (irrationally) thought to have formed himself, is not the God of the Bible.

In order to be "First," you have to have a start.
Isaiah 44:6
“This is what the Lord says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions​

1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
a. ancient time, long time (of past)
b. (of future)
1. for ever, always
2. continuous existence, perpetual
3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future

KJV Usage: always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).


You are still making up your own truth.

 

[Free]

In order to be "First," you have to have a start.
Isaiah 44:6
“This is what the Lord says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

You are simply once again not understanding what is being said. It--"I am the first and I am the last"--is a title denoting God's eternal self-existence before creation (that he is from eternity to eternity), showing that he created all things, is sovereign over all human history, and that there are no other gods.

In addition to those two verses is:

Isa 41:4 Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. (ESV)

God repeats this title of himself in Rev, with different terminology:

Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (ESV)

Rev 21:6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. (ESV)

Interestingly, Jesus used all three titles of himself:

Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, (ESV)

Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. (ESV)

Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (ESV)

The inescapable conclusion is that Jesus is also the one God, from eternity to eternity; he's just not the Father. The Son cannot have been created.

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions​

1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
a. ancient time, long time (of past)
b. (of future)
1. for ever, always
2. continuous existence, perpetual
3. everlasting, indefinite or unending future

KJV Usage: always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

What word are these the definitions for?

You are still making up your own truth.

You've done that in almost every post. There are numerous claims you have made that you never provided evidence for, even though you were asked, even more than once for some of them. So, it is not I making up my own truth. And, you still aren't addressing the previous verses and arguments I gave.

 

[CherubRam]

You are simply once again not understanding what is being said. It--"I am the first and I am the last"--is a title denoting God's eternal self-existence before creation (that he is from eternity to eternity), showing that he created all things, is sovereign over all human history, and that there are no other gods.

In addition to those two verses is:

Isa 41:4 Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. (ESV)

God repeats this title of himself in Rev, with different terminology:

Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (ESV)

Rev 21:6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. (ESV)

Interestingly, Jesus used all three titles of himself:

Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, (ESV)

Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. (ESV)

Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (ESV)

The inescapable conclusion is that Jesus is also the one God, from eternity to eternity; he's just not the Father. The Son cannot have been created.


What word are these the definitions for?


You've done that in almost every post. There are numerous claims you have made that you never provided evidence for, even though you were asked, even more than once for some of them. So, it is not I making up my own truth. And, you still aren't addressing the previous verses and arguments I gave.

You ignore what I say and come back again with promoting your trinity doctrine, a doctrine of the Catholic Papacy. Are you a Catholic?

 

[Free]

You ignore what I say and come back again with promoting your trinity doctrine, a doctrine of the Catholic Papacy. Are you a Catholic?

It’s the other way around. Anyone who looks at the last few posts would easily see that I have addressed your posts while you have not addressed mine. It seems to be the case that whenever you are asked for evidence or given proof to the contrary, that you avoid addressing those things. Why is that?

 

[CherubRam]

It’s the other way around. Anyone who looks at the last few posts would easily see that I have addressed your posts while you have not addressed mine. It seems to be the case that whenever you are asked for evidence or given proof to the contrary, that you avoid addressing those things. Why is that?

Here is the answer to your questions. THE CATHOLIC PAPACY TAMPERED WITH THE SCRIPTURES.

 

[Free]

Here is the answer to your questions. THE CATHOLIC PAPACY TAMPERED WITH THE SCRIPTURES.

First, that doesn't address anything in my posts. Second, where were the scriptures supposedly tampered with by "the Catholic Papacy"? Third, where is legitimate evidence of this tampering?

 

[CherubRam]

First, that doesn't address anything in my posts. Second, where were the scriptures supposedly tampered with by "the Catholic Papacy"? Third, where is legitimate evidence of this tampering?

Because KJV Rev 1:11 was found to be a corruption it is not included into other bibles.

KJV
Revelation 1:11. Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

NIV
Revelation 1:11
11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”​

 

[CherubRam]

1 Timothy 3:16 Holman bible foot note. Other mss read God
1 Timothy 3:16 NIV foot note. Some manuscripts God

1 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He(a) appeared in a body,(b)
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

Footnotes:
a. 1 Timothy 3:16 Some manuscripts God
b. 1 Timothy 3:16 Or in the flesh

 

[CherubRam]

NIV 1 John 5
6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[See a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

NIV Footnotes:
a.1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

KJV
1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. 7And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

1 John 5:7 implicitly states that all THREE are ONE.

This is the only verse in the Bible that explicitly states that all three persons are one.
Unfortunately, it was added to that verse.
No earlier version includes that last phrase about them being one.

The first 2 additions of Erasmus' master Greek text did not have this.
Stunica (a Catholic authority) demanded that he include the phrase.
Erasmus told Stunica that if he could provide one Greek manuscript with that phrase, he would include it.
But no Greek manuscripts up to that time had it.
Only Latin manuscripts had it. So Stunica had a Greek manuscript made up from the Latin and forced Erasmus to include it.

In 1514, before Erasmus had even begun to edit his text, but its publication was delayed until 1522, until permission of Pope Leo X had finally been obtained for it.

"The supreme Pontiff Leo X, Our Most Holy Father in Christ and Lord, desiring to favour this undertaking, sent from the apostolic library."

This claim seems to have been accepted by all at that time.
In view of its inclusion in the Clementine edition of the Latin Vulgate (1592), in 1897 the Holy Office in Rome, a high ecclesiastical congregation, made an authoritative pronouncement, approved and confirmed by Pope Leo XIII, that it is not safe to deny that this verse is an authentic part of St. John's Epistle."

 

[CherubRam]

The list of Trinity corruptions goes on and on.

 

[Free]

Because KJV Rev 1:11 was found to be a corruption it is not included into other bibles.​

​

KJV ​

Revelation 1:11. Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:​

​

NIV​

Revelation 1:11​

11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”​

1 Timothy 3:16 Holman bible foot note. Other mss read God
1 Timothy 3:16 NIV foot note. Some manuscripts God

1 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He(a) appeared in a body,(b)
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

Footnotes:
a. 1 Timothy 3:16 Some manuscripts God
b. 1 Timothy 3:16 Or in the flesh

Yes, different manuscripts can say slightly different things. That is why many versions put notes in about these things. It does not follow that they were purposely corrupted or are even in any sense "corruptions." It would also be fallacious to use these to conclude that the Trinity is not taught in the Bible. This is can be clearly seen in that what is stated in the KJV in Rev 1:11, is stated elsewhere by Jesus, in every version, as I have given.

NIV 1 John 5
6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[See a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

NIV Footnotes:
a.1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

KJV
1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. 7And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

1 John 5:7 implicitly states that all THREE are ONE.

This is the only verse in the Bible that explicitly states that all three persons are one.
Unfortunately, it was added to that verse.
No earlier version includes that last phrase about them being one.

The first 2 additions of Erasmus' master Greek text did not have this.
Stunica (a Catholic authority) demanded that he include the phrase.
Erasmus told Stunica that if he could provide one Greek manuscript with that phrase, he would include it.
But no Greek manuscripts up to that time had it.
Only Latin manuscripts had it. So Stunica had a Greek manuscript made up from the Latin and forced Erasmus to include it.

In 1514, before Erasmus had even begun to edit his text, but its publication was delayed until 1522, until permission of Pope Leo X had finally been obtained for it.

"The supreme Pontiff Leo X, Our Most Holy Father in Christ and Lord, desiring to favour this undertaking, sent from the apostolic library."

This claim seems to have been accepted by all at that time.
In view of its inclusion in the Clementine edition of the Latin Vulgate (1592), in 1897 the Holy Office in Rome, a high ecclesiastical congregation, made an authoritative pronouncement, approved and confirmed by Pope Leo XIII, that it is not safe to deny that this verse is an authentic part of St. John's Epistle."

We've dealt with this one previously. Most versions do not contain this verse, which may or may not have been purposely added. While I believe it is a later addition, it still agrees with the total witness of Scripture.

The list of Trinity corruptions goes on and on.

Yet, you've only shown one potential verse. You're still avoiding addressing the verses and arguments I gave.