Christian rockers: ministry, vocation, or both? plus poll

[vocalyocal]

vocalyocal: I'm not necessarily advocating at all the details you describe, but in terms of styles I do think that there is bound to be some variety between one local church and another as to what their expectations are, and the mere fact of the existence of such variety should not be deemed to be a matter of doctrinal unsoundness, one way or another.

right but with everything there will always be people pushing the envelope, I even could imagine the Lords supper someday being pizza and beer, It may sound far fetched to you but as much as the church has changed in the past 40 yrs, I imagine it will be quite a different thing in 40 more and then you will be the one posting like I am.....lol

 

[farouk]

right but with everything there will always be people pushing the envelope, I even could imagine the Lords supper someday being pizza and beer, It may sound far fetched to you but as much as the church has changed in the past 40 yrs, I imagine it will be quite a different thing in 40 more and then you will be the one posting like I am.....lol

vocalyocal:

Apples and oranges.

What you say is no argument. It doesn't make logical sense for anyone to say: "Hey guys, Nikki can't sing tonight in case some guy in 40 years' time drinks beer."

 

[vocalyocal]

vocalyocal:

Apples and oranges.

What you say is no argument. It doesn't make logical sense for anyone to say: "Hey guys, Nikki can't sing tonight in case some guy in 40 years' time drinks beer."

so I take it your OK with the Lords supper as a sacrament being changed to pizza and beer night, just as long as Nikki sings........is Nikki a good singer or does she just Rap the proverbs

 

[farouk]

so I take it your OK with the Lords supper as a sacrament being changed to pizza and beer night, just as long as Nikki sings........is Nikki a good singer or does she just Rap the proverbs

vocalyocal: Again, you are pushing illogicality. You don't get the point that there is no linkage in the first place and it should be clear that I'm not arguing for the suggestions you introduce.

 

[farouk]

...my opinion began gradually changing.

questdriven:

...helped along, no doubt, too, by an increasing recognition of the good quality of some Christian rock and its witness value?

Blessings.

 

[Obadiah]

vocalyocal: Again, you are pushing illogicality. You don't get the point that there is no linkage in the first place and it should be clear that I'm not arguing for the suggestions you introduce.

So what would be wrong with lasers and flash pots in an of themselves if they were used in some Christian concert somewhere? I keep hearing about "40 years ago", well around that time there was a Christian band called Servant that indeed did use these kind of things in their concerts. Can you imagine how "cutting edge" it seemed way back then? Why shouldn't Christians be allowed to use the best of the best they can find around them for worshiping and praising God? Doesn't God deserve AT LEAST as much as the devil?

This is actually a discussion we've had at my church a few times recently. Can anyone show me scripture that actually dictates which things we aren't allowed to use for worship? I don't mean vague references taken out of context and massaged until they fit someone's personal tastes and preferences. I mean actual scripture clearly stating something like "thou shalt not worship with guitar music" or "thou hast to sing songs written in the 15th century"? Ok, yeah I'm being a little facetious with those quotes, but I think you all get my point. Is there ANYTHING in scripture specifically condemning any of the things actual Christian bands are doing in churches these days? Is there ANYTHING dictating how our services ARE to look, beyond just saying thing should be done in order? Does it say the pastor has to preach a sermon? Or that there needs to be creeds recited? Or what kind of clothing should be worn? Etc, Etc. Keep in mind, I'm asking about the NT church, not ancient Jewish traditions, and I'm not being contentious. If there is such scripture (not just personal opinion) I would love to take it back to my pastor for more discussion.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I don't think the Bible tells us to avoid something simply because it's popular. If I went by that, I wouldn't have the internet and many of the other things I have.
If something becomes an addiction or extreme obsession, or if it's actually sinful, then we have a problem. But with an addiction, that's a problem for a particular individual, not everyone. Also, pretty much anything can become an addiction. When something becomes an addiction, it steals your mind, makes you want it constantly, and you don't end up spending any, or little, time with God. In fact, it may make you resent God because you know you shouldn't feel that way, but you don't want to stop. (I've had a little personal experience with this, over a TV show.)

I think the verse in John is about puting God first in our lives more than anything.

 

[farouk]

I don't think the Bible tells us to avoid something simply because it's popular. If I went by that, I wouldn't have the internet and many of the other things I have.
If something becomes an addiction or extreme obsession, or if it's actually sinful, then we have a problem. But with an addiction, that's a problem for a particular individual, not everyone. Also, pretty much anything can become an addiction. When something becomes an addiction, it steals your mind, makes you want it constantly, and you don't end up spending any, or little, time with God. In fact, it may make you resent God because you know you shouldn't feel that way, but you don't want to stop. (I've had a little personal experience with this, over a TV show.)

I think the verse in John is about puting God first in our lives more than anything.

questdriven:

Yes, the key is the mind, and this is why the lyrics are so important, I reckon.

I love Philippians 4.8. 'Think on these things'!

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

I did used to be anti-rock, a few years back. ...

PS: questdriven:

Well, you certainly aren't now, by the sound of it, anyway. You've talked about your brother, too; sounds like he doesn't think like you maybe did at his age, anyway.

My thing is lyrics, really; that they should be God honoring, whatever the style.

Blessings.

 

[Speculative]

These threads inspired me to check out some of this music. I've currently got Skillet's disc "Comatose" from the Library. I have some others on order. I like the sound of the music. I find the lyrics very subtle as far as a Christian witness is concerned...not overly gospel like some of the stuff I used to listen to in the 90's. Still it's pretty good stuff.

 

[farouk]

These threads inspired me to check out some of this music. I've currently got Skillet's disc "Comatose" from the Library. I have some others on order. I like the sound of the music. I find the lyrics very subtle as far as a Christian witness is concerned...not overly gospel like some of the stuff I used to listen to in the 90's. Still it's pretty good stuff.

S:

Ty; I've have to check it out.

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

These threads inspired me to check out some of this music. I've currently got Skillet's disc "Comatose" from the Library. I have some others on order. I like the sound of the music. I find the lyrics very subtle as far as a Christian witness is concerned...not overly gospel like some of the stuff I used to listen to in the 90's. Still it's pretty good stuff.

I'm going to have to get that album sometime. Right now I just have "Awake".

 

[vocalyocal]

So what would be wrong with lasers and flash pots in an of themselves if they were used in some Christian concert somewhere? I keep hearing about "40 years ago", well around that time there was a Christian band called Servant that indeed did use these kind of things in their concerts. Can you imagine how "cutting edge" it seemed way back then? Why shouldn't Christians be allowed to use the best of the best they can find around them for worshiping and praising God? Doesn't God deserve AT LEAST as much as the devil?

This is actually a discussion we've had at my church a few times recently. Can anyone show me scripture that actually dictates which things we aren't allowed to use for worship? I don't mean vague references taken out of context and massaged until they fit someone's personal tastes and preferences. I mean actual scripture clearly stating something like "thou shalt not worship with guitar music" or "thou hast to sing songs written in the 15th century"? Ok, yeah I'm being a little facetious with those quotes, but I think you all get my point. Is there ANYTHING in scripture specifically condemning any of the things actual Christian bands are doing in churches these days? Is there ANYTHING dictating how our services ARE to look, beyond just saying thing should be done in order? Does it say the pastor has to preach a sermon? Or that there needs to be creeds recited? Or what kind of clothing should be worn? Etc, Etc. Keep in mind, I'm asking about the NT church, not ancient Jewish traditions, and I'm not being contentious. If there is such scripture (not just personal opinion) I would love to take it back to my pastor for more discussion.

be not conformed to the world, today we conform EVERYTHING to the way the world is doing things......is the world doing lazer shows and flash pods at their rock concerts.....we need to do lazer shows and flash pods

look around you friend, the church is so conformed to the world, its practically hard to tell one from the other

 

[evenifigoalone]

I don't mean to butt into someone elses' conversation, but where does the Bible say that we can't use technology just because the world uses it? There's a big difference between a church using modern technology and music, and preaching a different gospel.

A friend of mine told me about a church that believes that God's grace gives us a license to sin--because He'll forgive you anyway, right? Now that's worldly, because that's the kind of message the world wants to hear: that it's okay to do exactly as we please. That's apostate. That's the kind of church to avoid.

The Bible study I attend is more like a church than a Bible study. They have a praise band, modern music, and, yes, lights. But the message they preach is a Biblical one. I feel the Spirit there. Furthermore, I can tell you that anyone who walks in there can tell right off the bat that it's a Christian establishment.
More so than at the church I attend (for now) on Sundays and Wednesday, which shares your belief that the church shouldn't use modern music. And that's fine. They have the right to that belief, and I wouldn't say it's a bad church. But all they preach on half the time is how churches using modern music makes them too worldly--how is one supposed to learn anything from that? You don't develop a relationship with God by simply avoiding modern music.

Certainly, music and looks and how awesome the lights look shouldn't be a factor in choosing a church. I'm not saying that, and I'd agree that that's wrong. What I am saying is I don't think that it should automatically make a church out of the question, either. Most important is to listen to the message, and compare it to the Scripture. IMO, concentrating on whether they "look modern" or not--for whatever reason, whether for or against, is losing sight of the purpose of the church.

 

[farouk]

I don't mean to butt into someone elses' conversation, but where does the Bible say that we can't use technology just because the world uses it? There's a big difference between a church using modern technology and music, and preaching a different gospel.

A friend of mine told me about a church that believes that God's grace gives us a license to sin--because He'll forgive you anyway, right? Now that's worldly, because that's the kind of message the world wants to hear: that it's okay to do exactly as we please. That's apostate. That's the kind of church to avoid.

...

questdriven:

This is a wise way of putting it.

Such criticism as you refer to would tend to mistake the medium for the message.

It's the difference - an essential one - between style and substance.

Blessings.

 

[Obadiah]

be not conformed to the world, today we conform EVERYTHING to the way the world is doing things......is the world doing lazer shows and flash pods at their rock concerts.....we need to do lazer shows and flash pods

look around you friend, the church is so conformed to the world, its practically hard to tell one from the other

I don't mean to butt into someone elses' conversation, but where does the Bible say that we can't use technology just because the world uses it? There's a big difference between a church using modern technology and music, and preaching a different gospel.

A friend of mine told me about a church that believes that God's grace gives us a license to sin--because He'll forgive you anyway, right? Now that's worldly, because that's the kind of message the world wants to hear: that it's okay to do exactly as we please. That's apostate. That's the kind of church to avoid.

The Bible study I attend is more like a church than a Bible study. They have a praise band, modern music, and, yes, lights. But the message they preach is a Biblical one. I feel the Spirit there. Furthermore, I can tell you that anyone who walks in there can tell right off the bat that it's a Christian establishment.
More so than at the church I attend (for now) on Sundays and Wednesday, which shares your belief that the church shouldn't use modern music. And that's fine. They have the right to that belief, and I wouldn't say it's a bad church. But all they preach on half the time is how churches using modern music makes them too worldly--how is one supposed to learn anything from that? You don't develop a relationship with God by simply avoiding modern music.

Certainly, music and looks and how awesome the lights look shouldn't be a factor in choosing a church. I'm not saying that, and I'd agree that that's wrong. What I am saying is I don't think that it should automatically make a church out of the question, either. Most important is to listen to the message, and compare it to the Scripture. IMO, concentrating on whether they "look modern" or not--for whatever reason, whether for or against, is losing sight of the purpose of the church.

Questdriven's response is absolutely correct. If "be not conformed to the world" means we can't use one single thing in a church service that is used anywhere else in the world, then I challenge to you name one thing that CAN be done or used in church. Does someone play a piano in your church? Those are used by the world all the time, so you would have to stop that. How about an organ? Same thing! Organs were banned from the church at one time because they were "too worldly". So you have to stop that too. Does someone stand up and speak to the congregation? Well, public speaking is used by the world, so stop it. Does the pastor use a microphone? So do worldly rock bands, so stop that too. How do people know your church exists? Are they possibly listed in the phone book or advertised in the local newspaper? Those are the same places that worldly things are advertised too (even prostitutes and strip clubs advertise there!!!), so stop promoting your church through worldly methods. The list can go on and on until there is nothing left that you CAN do in church. The people will disappear and the church will close it's doors. Oh, wait a minute. Almost forgot. I've been told by some fundamentalists that having a building is "worldly" too. So I suppose there would be no building to close the doors on.

The scripture "be not conformed to the world" does NOT mean we can't use things that the world uses. It means we are not to hold those things to a higher level of importance than we hold God. There is nothing wrong with using the things that are available to us in the world to God's glory. Until we are taken out of this world, we literally have NO other choice! There is nothing wrong with a person choosing which church they attend based on their personal tastes and preferences for the style of worship in that church. But short of a church outright teaching false doctrine, I don't think it's right to condemn their preferences as violating "be not conformed to the world" just because they don't fit with your own personal tastes and preferences.

Oh, and by the way, I'm pretty sure I know what is on some people's minds: "You're just trying to justify what you do in your church". No, my church doesn't have a Christian rock band or use flashpots and lasers during their worship services. But yes, I do justify using anything that is available to us that can be used to worship God and to spread the gospel.

 

[farouk]

..I'm pretty sure I know what is on some people's minds: "You're just trying to justify what you do in your church". No, my church doesn't have a Christian rock band or use flashpots and lasers during their worship services. But yes, I do justify using anything that is available to us that can be used to worship God and to spread the gospel.

Obadiah:

In the end, as the Lord Jesus said in John 4, worship is 'in spirit and in truth'.

It's not about style.

There are various styles, but truth worship is inward and spiritual and in truth and the Lord sees the heart.

 

[vocalyocal]

Questdriven's response is absolutely correct. If "be not conformed to the world" means we can't use one single thing in a church service that is used anywhere else in the world, then I challenge to you name one thing that CAN be done or used in church. Does someone play a piano in your church? Those are used by the world all the time, so you would have to stop that. How about an organ? Same thing! Organs were banned from the church at one time because they were "too worldly". So you have to stop that too. Does someone stand up and speak to the congregation? Well, public speaking is used by the world, so stop it. Does the pastor use a microphone? So do worldly rock bands, so stop that too. How do people know your church exists? Are they possibly listed in the phone book or advertised in the local newspaper? Those are the same places that worldly things are advertised too (even prostitutes and strip clubs advertise there!!!), so stop promoting your church through worldly methods. The list can go on and on until there is nothing left that you CAN do in church. The people will disappear and the church will close it's doors. Oh, wait a minute. Almost forgot. I've been told by some fundamentalists that having a building is "worldly" too. So I suppose there would be no building to close the doors on.

The scripture "be not conformed to the world" does NOT mean we can't use things that the world uses. It means we are not to hold those things to a higher level of importance than we hold God. There is nothing wrong with using the things that are available to us in the world to God's glory. Until we are taken out of this world, we literally have NO other choice! There is nothing wrong with a person choosing which church they attend based on their personal tastes and preferences for the style of worship in that church. But short of a church outright teaching false doctrine, I don't think it's right to condemn their preferences as violating "be not conformed to the world" just because they don't fit with your own personal tastes and preferences.

Oh, and by the way, I'm pretty sure I know what is on some people's minds: "You're just trying to justify what you do in your church". No, my church doesn't have a Christian rock band or use flashpots and lasers during their worship services. But yes, I do justify using anything that is available to us that can be used to worship God and to spread the gospel.

I guess I think the bible is a trust worthy guide and in its pages it describes how the church will act, and how leadership will be chosen, and what will happen in the service, those lines are the ones I tend to follow..........besides church isn't about my needs and wants, its about what God wants and desires

 

[farouk]

I guess I think the bible is a trust worthy guide and in its pages it describes how the church will act, and how leadership will be chosen, and what will happen in the service, those lines are the ones I tend to follow..........besides church isn't about my needs and wants, its about what God wants and desires

vocalyocal:

Well, by God's grace I love the Word of God, too, as do many of us.

But do you really think that the New Testament, particularly, lays down 'correct' music styles?

 

[Obadiah]

I guess I think the bible is a trust worthy guide and in its pages it describes how the church will act, and how leadership will be chosen, and what will happen in the service, those lines are the ones I tend to follow..........besides church isn't about my needs and wants, its about what God wants and desires

Well, your response seems to imply that anyone who disagrees with you must not trust the Bible. Had you answered any of my questions about where the Bible says any of the things discussed in this thread are condemned (with an actual chapter and verse reference to scripture in it’s proper context), I could understand that. But you clearly failed to do that, probably because no such clear scripture exists supporting the specifics you claim are inappropriate. So at this point unless you can show where God actually tells us these specific things you have said are wrong are actually condemned in God’s word, there’s really no point in continuing. I’ll just politely agree to disagree with you.

To be honest, I've never been to a church worship service where the flashpots and lasers you mentioned were used. Christian concerts, yes. But those are much more geared to entertainment than worship. (And there's nothing wrong with entertainment. God never said we have to be sad or bored all the time!) But just like using modern music, if they are used somewhere I see no problem for those who worship this way. In fact, I'd like to go to a service like that sometime to see what it's like!