Christianity & Christmas

[tim-from-pa]

Just could not resist.... I love to watch "Horrible Histories" videos.

 

[TOG]

Question: "Should we have a Christmas Tree? Does the Christmas Tree have its origin in ancient pagan rituals?"

Answer:The modern custom of a Christmas tree does not come from any form of paganism. There is no evidence of any pagan religion decorating a special holiday tree for their mid-winter festivals, although the Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a festival called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. The first Christmas tree was decorated by Protestant Christians in 16th-century Germany. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early German traditions, and the custom most likely came to the United States with Hessian troops during the American Revolution, or with German immigrants to Pennsylvania and Ohio.

There is nothing in the Bible that either commands or prohibits Christmas trees. It has been falsely claimed by some thatJeremiah 10:1-16prohibits the cutting down and decorating of trees in the same manner as we do at Christmas. However, even a cursory reading of the text makes it clear that the passage is one in which Jeremiah sets forth the prohibition against idols made of wood, plated with silver and gold, and worshipped. A similar idea appears inIsaiah 44, where Isaiah speaks of the silliness of the idol-worshippers who cut down a tree, burn part of it in the fire to warm themselves, and use the other part to fashion an idol, which they then bow down to. So unless we bow down before our Christmas tree, carve it into an idol, and pray to it, these passages cannot be applied to Christmas trees.

There is no spiritual significance to having or not having a Christmas tree. Whatever choice we make, the motive behind a believer’s decision about this, as in all matters of conscience, must be to please the Lord.Romans 14:5-6asets out the principle in a passage about liberty: “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.” The Lord is grieved when Christians look down upon one another for either celebrating or not celebrating Christmas in a particular way. This is spiritual pride. When we feel that somehow we have achieved a higher plain of spirituality by doing or not doing something about which the Bible is silent, we misuse our freedom in Christ, create divisions within His body, and thereby dishonor the Lord. “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31).

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-tree.html#ixzz3LfTIM2tr

Here's and excerpt from the Wikipedia article on Christmas trees (emphasis mine)

While it is clear that the modern Christmas tree originated during the Renaissance of early modern Germany, there are a number of speculative theories as to its ultimate origin. Its 16th-century origins are sometimes associated with Protestant Christian reformer Martin Luther who is said to have first added lighted candles to an evergreen tree.

It is frequently traced to the symbolism of trees in pre-Christian winter rites, in particular through the story of Donar's Oak and the popularized story of Saint Boniface and the conversion of the German pagans, in which Saint Boniface cuts down an oak tree that the German pagans worshipped, and replaces it with an evergreen tree, telling them about how its triangular shape reminds humanity of the Trinity and how it points to heaven.
According to the Encyclopædia Britannica, "The use of evergreen trees, wreaths, and garlands to symbolize eternal life was a custom of the ancient Egyptians, Chinese, and Hebrews. Tree worship was common among the pagan Europeans and survived their conversion to Christianity in the Scandinavian customs of decorating the house and barn with evergreens at the New Year to scare away the devil and of setting up a tree for the birds during Christmastime.
​

The Christmas tree the way we know it today seems to have first started around 500 years ago, but that doesn't mean it wasn't at least partly based on something that existed before that time.

The TOG​

 

[Count Duckula]

I know a couple hundred years ago, in England and America, the Christmas celebration we have today was outlawed as Pagan. People just loved it so much it was eventually allowed.

 

[jasonc]

I know a couple hundred years ago, in England and America, the Christmas celebration we have today was outlawed as Pagan. People just loved it so much it was eventually allowed.

the puritans outlawed it.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I remember reading that the Pilgrims did.

 

[jasonc]

I remember reading that the Pilgrims did.

the pilgrims were puritans.

 

[tobewell]

There is scientific reason (planetary laws of motion used by NASA today and originally hand calculated by Kepler in 1609) that the Magi were led to Bethlehem because the star "stopped" and that date can be calculated.

Many people don't realize that the motion of stars and planets are so regular / constant that their orbits can be "wound" both forward and backward in time.

Kepler, in 1609, was attempting to find the Bethlehem Star when he hand calculated out the paths of light bearing stars or planets that would have been exceptionally bright to lead the Magi to Bethlehem.

There is scientific evidence to suggest that a conjunction of two planets occurred over Bethlehem around the time of Christ's birth and that this conjunction went into retrograde motion "causing the light to appear stopped" over Bethlehem.

The date this occurred, (again applying our Julian dating system to this event) was on December 25.

 

[tobewell]

P.S. "Santa Claus" or "Jolly Old St. Nicholas" was born in the the late 200's and prior to his death he was ordained Bishop of the Greek city of Myra which is now a city in Turkey.

Christianity was not yet legal in the Roman Empire at the time of his ordination and the canon of the Bible hadn't yet been determined. Nicholas became so well known due to his generosity to people in need by giving away his inheritance.

The St. Nicholas Center website has his reconstructed face from his relics which are entombed at Bari Italy. Prior to his death his nose had been broken and healed. The Center website states "...more likely, however, that his nose was broken when imprisoned and tortured during the persecution of Christians under Roman Emperor Diocletian."

 

[TOG]

There is scientific reason (planetary laws of motion used by NASA today and originally hand calculated by Kepler in 1609) that the Magi were led to Bethlehem because the star "stopped" and that date can be calculated.

Many people don't realize that the motion of stars and planets are so regular / constant that their orbits can be "wound" both forward and backward in time.

Kepler, in 1609, was attempting to find the Bethlehem Star when he hand calculated out the paths of light bearing stars or planets that would have been exceptionally bright to lead the Magi to Bethlehem.

There is scientific evidence to suggest that a conjunction of two planets occurred over Bethlehem around the time of Christ's birth and that this conjunction went into retrograde motion "causing the light to appear stopped" over Bethlehem.

The date this occurred, (again applying our Julian dating system to this event) was on December 25.

I see two big problems with that. First of all, Jesus was not born in December. The Bible tells us that shepherds were watching their flocks in the field at night. That doesn't happen in December. Secondly, the magi didn't come when Jesus was born, but some time later. When they came, they didn't find Jesus lying in a manger, but in a house.

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

Why wouldn't shepards protect their flocks in December? Passover is four months later when hundreds of thousands of unblemished one year old lambs would be sacrificed. Why would shepard's and sheep not be in the fields in December.

Please retread my post.

December 25 is the day the Magi were led to Bethlehem, where the Bethlehem Star "stopped".

 

[tobewell]

In Scripture, while in Bethlehem, Joseph was told to rise and leave to Egypt until Herod the Great died.


The Pilgrimage of the Magi

…7Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared.

8And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him."

9After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was.…

10When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.

…11After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

12And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.

13Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him."

 

[TOG]

Why wouldn't shepards protect their flocks in December?

You missed the point. Why would the flocks be out in the field in December? There would have been no grass for them to eat. They protected their flocks, not by staying out in the cold with them where there was nothing for the sheep to eat, but by keeping them inside.

Passover is four months later when hundreds of thousands of unblemished one year old lambs would be sacrificed. Why would shepard's and sheep not be in the fields in December.

Like I said, there was no reason for them to be outside. They would have kept the animals inside.

Please retread my post.

December 25 is the day the Magi were led to Bethlehem, where the Bethlehem Star "stopped".

Reading it again won't make it true. It doesn't fit with the biblical account.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

In Scripture, while in Bethlehem, Joseph was told to rise and leave to Egypt until Herod the Great died.


The Pilgrimage of the Magi

…7Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared.

8And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him."

9After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was.…

10When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.

…11After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

12And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.

13Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him."

And?...

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

You missed the point. Why would the flocks be out in the field in December? There would have been no grass for them to eat. They protected their flocks, not by staying out in the cold with them where there was nothing for the sheep to eat, but by keeping them inside.



Like I said, there was no reason for them to be outside. They would have kept the animals inside.



Reading it again won't make it true. It doesn't fit with the biblical account.

The TOG​

Do you think shepards kept hundreds of thousands of sacrificial lambs and eves inside?

"

1. The historian Josephus asserts in The Jewish War that in the year 66 AD there were 256,500 lambs sacrificed at Passover. Even if we consider this to be an inflated figure, only one-tenth that number is scarcely imaginable."

Have you Google searched average temperatures in Jersusalem, Israel in December?

It infrequently snows in Jerusalem and the weather this week (at night) is in the 50s.


P.S. Google search the historical record of the exact placement of "shepard's field" in Israel. It was a sanctified place where sacrificial lambs were raised for Paschal worship observance.

 

[tobewell]

And?...

The TOG​

There was a star that caused the Magi to travel to Jerusalem and they followed that star until it stopped. That star stopped over Bethlehem, where Jesus was born and where the holy family received the Magi and where one night God called Joseph out of his sleep and told him to escape to Egypt.

 

[TOG]

Do you think shepards kept hundreds of thousands of sacrificial lambs and eves inside?

There are no lambs in December. The lambs are born in late February to early march. By December they are 10 months old. Ewes are mature after about 6-8 months, and rams even earlier. Despite how some Bibles translate it, there is no such thing as a year old lamb. As for keeping hundreds of thousands of sheep inside, or at leas in a pen, where they could be fed and cared for, I don't see any problem with that.

1. The historian Josephus asserts in The Jewish War that in the year 66 AD there were 256,500 lambs sacrificed at Passover. Even if we consider this to be an inflated figure, only one-tenth that number is scarcely imaginable."

Notice when they were slaughtered - at Passover. Of the lambs that were slaughtered at Passover, how many were left to be kept inside the following December? That's right. None. What was left in December mainly the adult ewes and rams. But even if it were twice the number you give above, there still wouldn't be a problem. They weren't all, as some seem to think, kept in Jerusalem, but were kept at farms throughout Israel.

Have you Google searched average temperatures in Jersusalem, Israel in December?

It infrequently snows in Jerusalem and the weather this week (at night) is in the 50s.

The average low in December in Bethlehem is 7C (44.6F). That's not the coldest it gets. That's the average. That means that it can get considerably colder or warmer. It can and does go below freezing at night and it does snow (on average 1 day each December). But neither snow nor frost is the main issue. The sheep weren't kept outside at that time of year because there was nothing for them to eat. All the grass had withered. They were kept either in pens or barns (most likely the former) where it was easier for the farmer to feed and take care of them.

P.S. Google search the historical record of the exact placement of "shepard's field" in Israel. It was a sanctified place where sacrificial lambs were raised for Paschal worship observance.

Not everyone in Israel was a farmer, and not all who were farmers raised sheep. Everyone, however, was required to offer a Passover lamb, so some people had to buy them. That's what those raised near Jerusalem were used for, as well as for the daily sacrifices. Not all sheep in the country were raised there. Farmers brought their own lambs. As long as they fulfilled the requirement of being male and without spot or blemish, there was no requirement for them to have been raised in a sanctified area.

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

I refer to year old sacrificial sheep as lambs because Christ is called the Paschal Lamb.

And because Scripture (Exodus and Numbers) refers to these sacrificial sheep as lambs.

One year old woolen coated sheep cited for slaughter at Passover would have no problem handled 30 to 50 degree weather in December without being penned inside.

 

[tobewell]

http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Jerusalem/climate-profile.aspx

Climate history of Jerusalem Israel in December. 3 inches of rainfall, no snow. Lowest temperature hit 30. High in the 80s.

 

[The Poly Grip Kid]

two very informative web articles concerning the origin how December 25 became Christmas: http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...w-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/ https://matthew2262.wordpress.com/tag/christmas/

Christmas on December 25th all started with Cesar Constantine
the The Holy Spirit has put in my heart that the birth of the Lord Jesus was on the Hebrew holiday of Yom Kippur the day of atonement which is the holiest Day of the year and when the Hebrew people are closest to God
Resurrection day (Easter) also replaced the pagan holiday ishtar which was in celebration of the pagan firtility god, the egg and the rabbit came right out of that pagan holiday. both Christmas and Easter are mingled with Pagan tradition's like it or not. that is just a cold hard historical fact
Christ died the evening before the Passover Sabbath. Yeshua became the Passover Lamb The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world
the dates are not right but what is important is that we observe a day that we give thanks to the Lord Jesus for putting on a flesh body that he came save us from our sins and to conquer not the roman government which at that time perio of the Lord Jesus the Christ generation had His people in bondage but to conquer death, hell and the grave which was the result of sin that has the whole world in bondage that we may be freed from sin and give us a spiritual rebirth that we may some day live forever in eternity with Him in Heaven.
BTW the early followers of Christ worshiped on the Sabbath.Cesar Constantine also changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday
..Guess what sunday was the day that pagans worshiped their pagan polytheistic Deity's as well

 

[tobewell]

The Church was alive and well spreading the Gospel throughout the Mediterranian for 325 years prior to Constantine legalizing Christianity as a religion.

By comparison, the United States isn't even 250 years old.