Christianity & Christmas

[TOG]

I refer to year old sacrificial sheep as lambs because Christ is called the Paschal Lamb.

And because Scripture (Exodus and Numbers) refers to these sacrificial sheep as lambs.

One year old woolen coated sheep cited for slaughter at Passover would have no problem handled 30 to 50 degree weather in December without being penned inside.

Lambs in Iceland are born in March / April and are slaughtered in September. At 5-6 months old, a single lamb can weigh around 18 kg (39.6 lb), after the skin and wool, head and innards and hooves have been removed. A single kg of meat can feed 3-4 people for a normal meal. People usually eat more at festival meals, so let's say that each person ate 0.5 kg (weight including bones). That means that a single lamb that age would be enough for 36 people. There are not many families that big, yet each family was to offer a lamb and finish eating it before morning. How did they do that? Simple. The lambs weren't a year old, but "in the first year", which means less than a year old. They were, in fact, only a month or so old. Maybe less.

But now we're getting into another time of year all together. We were talking about Christmas. However old the lambs were that were eaten at Passover, the fact is that the sheep were not kept out in the fields at night in December.

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

I'll go by what Scripture writes was required, not by your explanation of what you believe was allowable. A one year old male lamb up to weight and size feeds the greatest number of people.

The weather in December in Israel hovers around 55 degrees day and night. It rarely snows there, but it does occasionally rain.

King Agrippa took a census of the men and women attending Passover at the Second Temple - 1,200,000 inside Jerusalem.

https://www.templeinstitute.org/passover.htm

Sheep herders raising large quantities of sheep lived in the fields, protecting the sheep as Christ Himself made reference to.

They didn't build enourmous roofed barns to keep the lambs inside.

 

[TOG]

The weather in December in Israel hovers around 55 degrees day and night. It rarely snows there, but it does occasionally rain.

That may be true for some parts of Israel, but the climate varies a great deal. The Dead Sea does not have the same type of climate as Jerusalem. The average low in December in Bethlehem is 45F. But that's irrelevant, since the temperature isn't the main reason they weren't out in the field (although it was part of it). The main reason is the lack of food. But if you insist on maintaining that animals were kept outside in the fields day and night all year round, then what was the stable for where Jesus was born and why did Jesus refer to sheep from other folds (John 10:16), if people were totally unfamiliar with their use?

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

That may be true for some parts of Israel, but the climate varies a great deal. The Dead Sea does not have the same type of climate as Jerusalem. The average low in December in Bethlehem is 45F. But that's irrelevant, since the temperature isn't the main reason they weren't out in the field (although it was part of it). The main reason is the lack of food. But if you insist on maintaining that animals were kept outside in the fields day and night all year round, then what was the stable for where Jesus was born and why did Jesus refer to sheep from other folds (John 10:16), if people were totally unfamiliar with their use?

The TOG​

That belonged to the innkeeper. He wasn't a mass producer of yearling male sheep to be sold to tens or hundreds of thousands of families arriving from all over Jerusalem and other countries for Passover.

Not sure why you believe that grass stops growing at 50 degrees with 3 inches of rainfall in December in the Mediterranean.

Prairie grass grows fast in moderate temperatures with 3 inches of monthly rainfall.

 

[TOG]

That belonged to the innkeeper. He wasn't a mass producer of yearling male sheep to be sold to tens or hundreds of thousands of families arriving from all over Jerusalem and other countries for Passover.

Not sure why you believe that grass stops growing at 50 degrees with 3 inches of rainfall in December in the Mediterranean.

Prairie grass grows fast in moderate temperatures with 3 inches of monthly rainfall.

You seem to think Bethlehem has a tropical climate and everything is green all year. It doesn't. I just talked to a friend of mine a few minutes ago on the phone. He's been living in Jerusalem for the past 3 months, and just got back a few days ago. I told him about this thread, and he confirmed what I already knew. The grass withers over the winter, just like the grass in your yard and mine. There is nothing outside for sheep or any other animal to eat.

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

You seem to think Bethlehem has a tropical climate and everything is green all year. It doesn't. I just talked to a friend of mine a few minutes ago on the phone. He's been living in Jerusalem for the past 3 months, and just got back a few days ago. I told him about this thread, and he confirmed what I already knew. The grass withers over the winter, just like the grass in your yard and mine. There is nothing outside for sheep or any other animal to eat.

The TOG​

My sister's mother in law lives in Jerusalem, near the Temple Mount.

What you want me to believe is that tens of thousands of sheep (destined for slaughter in March) starve to death in December because grass turns brown?

I live in the Midwest United States, herds of cattle survive on dry prairie grass eating it throughout the winter in freezing cold weather for four months.

 

[TOG]

My sister's mother in law lives in Jerusalem, near the Temple Mount.

What you want me to believe is that tens of thousands of sheep (destined for slaughter in March) starve to death in December because grass turns brown?

What I would like to believe is that you are capable of listening to what I actually say and respond to it in a reasonable way, without twisting it. You're making it harder for me to believe that with every post. If you're going to respond to me, respond to what I have said. If you can't do that, don't bother responding at all.

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

I responded directly to your specific assertion.

 

[TOG]

I responded directly to your specific assertion.

No. Straw men and misrepresentations of what I said do not count as a direct response. Go back and read my previous posts and try again.

The TOG​

 

[WIP]

I don't know about you all but for me a star or even a comet in the night sky appears to be motionless to the naked eye unless one takes time lapse photos. If the position in the sky of any star, planet, or even comet did in fact stop I wouldn't know it for hours. I can travel a pretty good distance even on foot in a few hours. Besides, can anyone determine precisely where a star is relative to a small building on the surface of the earth? If I look at the sky from my front lawn and then jump in my car, drive 30 miles away, and look at the sky again the same star appears to still be over me in the same relative location.

In order for the story of the Bethlehem star to make any sense at all I believe it (some kind of orb) appeared much, much closer to the earth than any normal nighttime celestial object.

 

[tobewell]

When a star appears to stop the effect is called retrograde motion.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrograde_motion

NASA computers calculate (wind forward) the orbits of planets when they Send unmanned spacecraft into deep space.

The computer program also can be wound backward in time to see what star was over Bethlhem around the time of Christ's birth.

 

[tobewell]

No. Straw men and misrepresentations of what I said do not count as a direct response. Go back and read my previous posts and try again.

The TOG​

I actually have no idea why you brought up the impossibility of sheep being in fields in Bethlehem in December and shepard's being there to watch them.

 

[TOG]

I actually have no idea why you brought up the impossibility of sheep being in fields in Bethlehem in December and shepard's being there to watch them.

Because the Bible tells us that there were shepherds watching their flocks in the fields the night after Jesus was born. If there are no shepherds watching their flocks in the fields at night in December, then Jesus couldn't have been born in December.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

When a star appears to stop the effect is called retrograde motion.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrograde_motion

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrograde_motion

According to that link, retrograde motion is when an object orbits a body in the opposite direction to other objects orbiting the same body. What you are most likely referring to is apparent retrograde motions, which is explained in this Wikipedia article. Apparent retrograde motion happens when two objects are orbiting the same central body, and one seems to reverse direction as seen from the other. But it's not something you see while looking at the sky for just a few minutes. It takes days of observation to notice it.

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

Show me again where you believe I presented a "strawman" response to what you asserted.

 

[tobewell]

According to that link, retrograde motion is when an object orbits a body in the opposite direction to other objects orbiting the same body. What you are most likely referring to is apparent retrograde motions, which is explained in this Wikipedia article. Apparent retrograde motion happens when two objects are orbiting the same central body, and one seems to reverse direction as seen from the other. But it's not something you see while looking at the sky for just a few minutes. It takes days of observation to notice it.

The TOG​

It occurs at the zenith of travel and the Magi had been observing this star as they traveled from the East.

The star is traveling in orbit but from Earth it appears to stop.

Kepler in the 1600's understood this optical phenomena / illusion and he attempted to locate the star.

 

[TOG]

Show me again where you believe I presented a "strawman" response to what you asserted.

Do you not know what a straw man is? According to Wikipedia...

"A straw man is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument. To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.​

The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition."
​

A straw man is when a person first claims his opponent said something other than what he actually said, and then commences to refute that, instead of refuting what his opponent actually said. This is what you have done in nearly every reply you've made to me. If you want an example, I claimed that the Passover lambs were slaughtered within weeks of their being born, and that there were no sheep in the fields in December. You replied by claiming that I had said that the lambs that were still waiting to be slaughtered next Passover were starving in the fields and show that to be stupid, instead of replying to what I actually said. That's a straw man.

​

Please reply to what I actually said, and not something you made up.

The TOG​

 

[tobewell]

Your argument seems to have been that all sheep in December in Israel were kept inside under roofed barns and that there was no food for them even if they were to go outside.

I refuted both of your assertions with facts showing the opposite was true.

 

[tobewell]

According to that link, retrograde motion is when an object orbits a body in the opposite direction to other objects orbiting the same body. What you are most likely referring to is apparent retrograde motions, which is explained in this Wikipedia article. Apparent retrograde motion happens when two objects are orbiting the same central body, and one seems to reverse direction as seen from the other. But it's not something you see while looking at the sky for just a few minutes. It takes days of observation to notice it.

The TOG​

This link is better at explaining planetary motion and retrograde motion:

http://www.unm.edu/~astro1/101lab/lab3/lab3_D.html

The first "Click Here" will show a planet displaying retrograde motion. It appears to stop on the curve.

http://www.scienceu.com/observatory/articles/retro/retro.html

 

[TOG]

This link is better at explaining planetary motion and retrograde motion:

http://www.unm.edu/~astro1/101lab/lab3/lab3_D.html

The first "Click Here" will show a planet displaying retrograde motion. It appears to stop on the curve.

http://www.scienceu.com/observatory/articles/retro/retro.html

As you can see from that animation, nothing stops. Apparent retrograde motion is when an object appears to reverse direction. And even if you consider it to appear to stop for a short time while changing apparent directions, that is in relation to the background of stars, not in relation to a house on the earth. The start the magi followed stopped above a house. Retrograde motion doesn't explain that.

The TOG​