Christianity taken by force

[CherubRam]

Christianity taken by force



Matthew 3:8
They were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins. When he saw that many of the Pharisees and Sadducees were stepping forward for this bath, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who told you to flee from the wrath to come? Give some evidence that you mean to reform. Do not pride yourselves on the claim, 'Abraham is our father.' I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these very stones."

Luke 16:16 The Law.
"The law and the prophets were in force until John. From his time on, the good news of God's kingdom has been proclaimed, and people of every sort are forcing their way in. It is easier for the heavens and the earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a letter of the law to pass.

Matthew 11:11
"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least born into the Kingdom of God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer's time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force."

Matthew 21:37
"Finally he sent his son to them, thinking, "They will respect my son.' When they saw the son, the tenants said to one another, 'Here is the one who will inherit everything. Let us kill him and then we shall have his inheritance!" With that they seized him, dragged him outside the vineyard, and killed him."

Matthew 12:14
When the Pharisees were outside they began to plot against him to find a way to destroy him.

2 Peter 2:1
"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them....

2 Peter 2:2
And many shall follow their destructive ways, and because of them evil shall be spoken of the way to the truth

 

[CherubRam]

Jude 1:4 commentary

Jude 1:4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation...

Jude 1:4.
πάλαι pálai, pal'-ahee; palai denotes "long ago, of old," Heb 1:1, RV, "of old time" (AV, "in time past"); in Jude 1:4,
Long time, Old time, Ancient order.

Jeremiah 11:9
Then the Lord said to me, “There is a conspiracy among the people of Judah and those who live in Jerusalem.

Acts 6:9
Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia—who began to argue with Stephen.

According to the Acts of the Apostles, the Synagogue of the Libertines (e.g. KJV, Wycliffe Bible) or Synagogue of the Freedmen (e.g. NKJV, NRSV) were a group of Hellenistic Jews who disputed with Saint Stephen (Acts 6:9).

The Freedmen were a secret society of Hellenistic Jews.

The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Book of Enoch imply that Michael is a man born here on earth, which does not agree with verse 9 of the Book of Jude.

 

[CherubRam]

The Book of Jude verse 9.
Yet Michael the Arch Angel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebukes thee.
Catholics refer to this verse and claim that it is quoting a non-canonical scripture called the Assumption of Moses, in an attempt to approve the principle of Sola Scriptura (The Bible only for doctrine).
The logic for this I assume to be the following: If the Bible quotes from a non-canonical book, then the Bible is validating the authenticity of that book, as inspired by God to the same level as the Bible itself. Consequently, any doctrinal teaching in that book not taught by the Bible itself, must in any case be just as inspired as the Bible, thus validating the authority of Catholic Tradition.
By this logic, Sola Scriptura is proposed, and the extra-biblical book is then assumed to be the "inspired word of God," on the same level with the authority of Scripture. So what of this logic, and what proof is there that the Jude 9 quotes this non-canonical book? Well, it was claimed by early church writers- Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Didymus that Jude 9 is a quotation from the book, The Assumption of Moses, yet interestingly enough, there is apparently no surviving portion of that "pseudepigraphical" book, containing the passage that exists today, from which to validate or even investigate that claim.

Most Christians are not aware that the bible validates the Book of Enoch as scripture. It's my opinion that because verse 9 of Jude contradicts the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Book of Enoch and the other parts of the bible, it must have been inserted into the book of Jude.

 

[CherubRam]

Jude foot notes.

Book of Jude: Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Footnotes:
Jude 1:1 Other mss read sanctified
Jude 1:5 Other mss read Jesus/Joshua, God, or God Christ
Jude 1:5 Other mss place first after remind you
Jude 1:7 Lit and went after other flesh
Jude 1:12 Or like spots
Jude 1:14 Or came
Jude 1:15 Lit convict all
Jude 1:19 Or natural
Jude 1:25 Other mss omit through Jesus Christ our Lord
Jude 1:25 Other mss omit before all time


Book of Jude: New International Version (NIV)
Footnotes:

Jude 1:1 Or by; or in
Jude 1:4 Or individuals who were marked out for condemnation
Jude 1:5 Some early manuscripts Jesus
Jude 1:9 Jude is alluding to the Jewish Testament of Moses (approximately the first century AD.).
Jude 1:15 From the Jewish First Book of Enoch (approximately the first century b.c.)
Jude 1:23 The Greek manuscripts of these verses vary at several points.


In regards to verse nine in the Book of Jude:
Chrysostom and Jerome mention Jude's quoting from a non-canonical sources as the reason it being disputed by some as canonical.

 

[CherubRam]

It is believed by some that Moses did not die, but was also taken into Heaven.



Jude

1. Jude, a servant of Yahshua the Messiah, and brother of Jacob, and to them that are sanctified by Yahwah the Father, also called and saved by Yahshua the Messiah.
2. May mercy, peace, and devotion, be multiplied to you.
3. Loved, I was eager to write to you about the salvation we share, it was necessary for me to write to you, and encourage you to earnestly contend for the faith that was given to the saints.
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation, these ungodly men turn the grace of our God into immorality, and deny that the only God is Yahwah, or that our lord Yahshua is the Messiah.
5. I will remind you although you once knew this, how Yahwah, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that did not believe.
6. Those messengers did not keep their first estate, and they were removed from their place, and He has reserved for them everlasting chains of darkness for that great day of judgment.
7. Just like Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in the same manner, they gave themselves over to fornication, and strange flesh.
8. And they will suffer the vengeance of eternal fire, as a set example; as also along with these filthy dreamers who also defile their flesh.
9. They say evil things about dignitaries and despise their dominion; they say evil things about what they know nothing about.
10. But what they do know naturally like brute beasts; in those things they have corrupted themselves.

 

[CherubRam]

Again
It is believed by some that Moses did not die, but was also taken into Heaven.

Matthew 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Mark 9:4
And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

Luke 9:30
Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus.

 

[for_his_glory]

I have no idea what you mean by Christianity taken by force. Just posting a bunch of scriptures does not make a dialog for discussion when the OP gives us nothing to discuss.

It would do you well to get your nose out of these commentaries of man and seek truth that is only taught through the Holy Spirit.

 

[CherubRam]

I have no idea what you mean by Christianity taken by force. Just posting a bunch of scriptures does not make a dialog for discussion when the OP gives us nothing to discuss.

It would do you well to get your nose out of these commentaries of man and seek truth that is only taught through the Holy Spirit.

? Are you OK? I have no idea why you can not see the bold print or commentary.

 

[donadams]

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

 

[donadams]

There are many references in the Nt to the deuterocanonical books.
References in New Testament
They are available for every book

Matthew
Matthew 4:4 Wisdom 16:26
Matthew 4:15 1 Maccabees 5:15
Matthew 5:18 Baruch 4:1
Matthew 5:28 Sirach 9:8
Matthew 5:2ss Sirach 25:7-12
Matthew 5:4 Sirach 48:24
Matthew 6:7 Sirach 7:14
Matthew 6:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
Matthew 6:10 1 Maccabees 3:60
Matthew 6:12 Sirach 28:2
Matthew 6:13 Sirach 33:1
Matthew 6:20 Sirach 29:10s
Matthew 6:23 Sirach 14:10
Matthew 6:33 Wisdom 7:11
Matthew 7:12 Tobit 4:15
Matthew 7:12 Sirach 31:15
Matthew 7:16 Sirach 27:6
Matthew 8:11 Baruch 4:37
Matthew 8:21 Tobit 4:3
Matthew 9:36 Judith 11:19
Matthew 9:38 1 Maccabees 12:17
Matthew 10:16 Sirach 13:17
Matthew 11:14 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 11:22 Judith 16:17
Matthew 11:25 Tobit 7:17
Matthew 11:25 Sirach 51:1
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 24:19
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 51:23
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:24s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:28s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 51:26s
Matthew 12:4 2 Maccabees 10:3
Matthew 12:5 Sirach 40:15
Matthew 13:44 Sirach 20:30s
Matthew 16:18 Wisdom 16:13
Matthew 16:22 1 Maccabees 2:21
Matthew 16:27 Sirach 35:22
Matthew 17:11 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 18:10 Tobit 12:15
Matthew 20:2 Tobit 5:15
Matthew 22:13 Wisdom 17:2
Matthew 23:38 Tobit 14:4
Matthew 24:15 1 Maccabees 1:54
Matthew 24:15 2 Maccabees 8:17
Matthew 24:16 1 Maccabees 2:28
Matthew 25:35 Tobit 4:17
Matthew 25:36 Sirach 7:32-35
Matthew 26:38 Sirach 37:2
Matthew 27:24 Daniel 13:46
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:13
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:18-20


Mark
Mark 1:15 Tobit 14:5
Mark 4:5 Sirach 40:15
Mark 4:11 Wisdom 2:22
Mark 5:34 Judith 8:35
Mark 6:49 Wisdom 17:15
Mark 8:37 Sirach 26:14
Mark 9:31 Sirach 2:18
Mark 9:48 Judith 16:17
Mark 10:18 Sirach 4:1
Mark 14:34 Sirach 37:2
Mark 15:29 Wisdom 2:17s


Luke
Luke 1:17 Sirach 48:10
Luke 1:19 Tobit 12:15
Luke 1:42 Judith 13:18
Luke 1:52 Sirach 10:14
Luke 2:29 Tobit 11:9
Luke 2:37 Judith 8:6
Luke 6:35 Wisdom 15:1
Luke 7:22 Sirach 48:5
Luke 9:8 Sirach 48:10
Luke 10:17 Tobit 7:17
Luke 10:19 Sirach 11:19
Luke 10:21 Sirach 51:1
Luke 12:19 Tobit 7:10
Luke 12:20 Wisdom 15:8
Luke 13:25 Tobit 14:4
Luke 13:27 1 Maccabees 3:6
Luke 13:29 Baruch 4:37
Luke 14:13 Tobit 2:2
Luke 15:12 1 Maccabees 10:29 [30]
Luke 15:12 Tobit 3:17
Luke 18:7 Sirach 35:22
Luke 19:44 Wisdom 3:7
Luke 21:24 Tobit 14:5
Luke 21:24 Sirach 28:18
Luke 21:25 Wisdom 5:22
Luke 24:4 2 Maccabees 3:26
Luke 24:31 2 Maccabees 3:34
Luke 24:50 Sirach 50:20s
Luke 24:53 Sirach 50:22


John
John 1:3 Wisdom 9:1
John 3:8 Sirach 16:21
John 3:12 Wisdom 9:16
John 3:12 Wisdom 18:15s
John 3:13 Baruch 3:29
John 3:28 1 Maccabees 9:39
John 3:32 Tobit 4:6
John 4:9 Sirach 50:25s
John 4:48 Wisdom 8:8
John 5:18 Wisdom 2:16
John 6:35 Sirach 24:21
John 7:38 Sirach 24:40, 43[30s]
John 8:44 Wisdom 2:24
John 8:53 Sirach 44:19
John 10:20 Wisdom 5:4
John 10:22 1 Maccabees 4:59
John 14:15 Wisdom 6:18
John 15:9s Wisdom 3:9
John 17:3 Wisdom 15:3
John 20:22 Wisdom 15:11

 

[Free]

? Are you OK? I have no idea why you can not see the bold print or commentary.

If someone is wondering why you posted what you did, then provide a respectful and full answer. These types of comments will not be tolerated.

And, for the record, I too have no idea how any of what you posted refers to Christianity taken by force.

 

[Free]

There are many references in the Nt to the deuterocanonical books.
References in New Testament
They are available for every book

Matthew
Matthew 4:4 Wisdom 16:26

From the first one alone, I'm quite certain that your assertion simply isn't true but is Catholic dogma.

Mat 4:4 But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” (ESV)

Deu 8:3 And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD. (ESV)

Matthew 4:15 1 Maccabees 5:15

Mat 4:15 "Land of Zebulun, land of Naphtali, on the road by the sea, across the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles— (NRSVA)

1Ma 5:15 they said that the people of Ptolemais and Tyre and Sidon, and all Galilee of the Gentiles, had gathered together against them "to annihilate us." (NRSVA)

Nope. The issue here is that the reference to Matt 4:15 ignores the context:

Mat 4:14 so that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
Mat 4:15 “The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles—
Mat 4:16 the people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned.” (ESV)

Isa 9:1 But there will be no gloom for her who was in anguish. In the former time he brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time he has made glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations.
Isa 9:2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shone. (ESV)

That's 0 for 2.

Matthew 5:18 Baruch 4:1

Mat 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. (NRSVA)

Bar 4:1 She is the book of the commandments of God, the law that endures forever. All who hold her fast will live, and those who forsake her will die. (NRSVA)

To say that Matt 5:18 is a reference to Baruch 4:1 is a huge stretch, to say the least. If Matt 5:18 is a reference to anything, it is much closer to these than Baruch 4:1:

Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. (ESV)

Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. (ESV)

0 for 3.

Matthew 5:28 Sirach 9:8

Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (NRSVA)

Sir 9:8 Turn away your eyes from a shapely woman, and do not gaze at beauty belonging to another; many have been seduced by a woman's beauty, and by it passion is kindled like a fire. (NRSVA)

Again, that is a huge stretch.

Exo 20:14 “You shall not commit adultery. (ESV)

Pro 5:20 Why should you be intoxicated, my son, with a forbidden woman and embrace the bosom of an adulteress? (ESV)

Pro 6:27 Can a man carry fire next to his chest and his clothes not be burned?
Pro 6:28 Or can one walk on hot coals and his feet not be scorched?
Pro 6:29 So is he who goes in to his neighbor's wife; none who touches her will go unpunished. (ESV)

That's 0 for 4, so I see no need to continue.

 

[for_his_glory]

? Are you OK? I have no idea why you can not see the bold print or commentary.

OK, what is your point about Moses other than just posting scriptures with his name in them.

The OP of a thread needs to have a clear subject in what the member wants to bring across to others and have a healthy discussion. When you only post scriptures and give it a title as such this one then it leads nowhere. Every thread needs a prologue or it will not be received and leaves others wondering what it's all about.

 

[CherubRam]

If someone is wondering why you posted what you did, then provide a respectful and full answer. These types of comments will not be tolerated.

And, for the record, I too have no idea how any of what you posted refers to Christianity taken by force.

You replies are peculiar.

 

[CherubRam]

OK, what is your point about Moses other than just posting scriptures with his name in them.

The OP of a thread needs to have a clear subject in what the member wants to bring across to others and have a healthy discussion. When you only post scriptures and give it a title as such this one then it leads nowhere. Every thread needs a prologue or it will not be received and leaves others wondering what it's all about.

Moses did not die, he was taken into heaven.

Matthew 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Mark 9:4
And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

Luke 9:30
Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus.

 

[eddif]

I have no idea what you mean by Christianity taken by force. Just posting a bunch of scriptures does not make a dialog for discussion when the OP gives us nothing to discuss.

It would do you well to get your nose out of these commentaries of man and seek truth that is only taught through the Holy Spirit.

The religious community at the time of Jesus:
The Jewish religious leaders were trying to forcefully take/maintain control of (their religion).

John 12:42 kjv
42. Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43. For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Acts 19:40 kjv
40. For we are in danger to be called in question for this day's uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give an account of this concourse.

The Jewish leadership tried to use Roman force to maintain their position.

The Jewish religious leaders were actually trying to use Roman force to stay in power. ( repeated statement to bring out the point). The Pharisees wanted to not be accused of the violence that was in their heart. IMHO.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[CherubRam]

The people who wanted to destroy or change Christianity were the Jews, Pagans, Gnostic's, Mystics; and also the Catholics and Hellenist.

2 Corinthians 4
7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay (scriptures) to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8 We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed.

 

[donadams]

From the first one alone, I'm quite certain that your assertion simply isn't true but is Catholic dogma.

Mat 4:4 But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” (ESV)

Deu 8:3 And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD. (ESV)



Mat 4:15 "Land of Zebulun, land of Naphtali, on the road by the sea, across the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles— (NRSVA)

1Ma 5:15 they said that the people of Ptolemais and Tyre and Sidon, and all Galilee of the Gentiles, had gathered together against them "to annihilate us." (NRSVA)

Nope. The issue here is that the reference to Matt 4:15 ignores the context:

Mat 4:14 so that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
Mat 4:15 “The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles—
Mat 4:16 the people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned.” (ESV)

Isa 9:1 But there will be no gloom for her who was in anguish. In the former time he brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time he has made glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations.
Isa 9:2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shone. (ESV)

That's 0 for 2.


Mat 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. (NRSVA)

Bar 4:1 She is the book of the commandments of God, the law that endures forever. All who hold her fast will live, and those who forsake her will die. (NRSVA)

To say that Matt 5:18 is a reference to Baruch 4:1 is a huge stretch, to say the least. If Matt 5:18 is a reference to anything, it is much closer to these than Baruch 4:1:

Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. (ESV)

Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. (ESV)

0 for 3.


Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (NRSVA)

Sir 9:8 Turn away your eyes from a shapely woman, and do not gaze at beauty belonging to another; many have been seduced by a woman's beauty, and by it passion is kindled like a fire. (NRSVA)

Again, that is a huge stretch.

Exo 20:14 “You shall not commit adultery. (ESV)

Pro 5:20 Why should you be intoxicated, my son, with a forbidden woman and embrace the bosom of an adulteress? (ESV)

Pro 6:27 Can a man carry fire next to his chest and his clothes not be burned?
Pro 6:28 Or can one walk on hot coals and his feet not be scorched?
Pro 6:29 So is he who goes in to his neighbor's wife; none who touches her will go unpunished. (ESV)

That's 0 for 4, so I see no need to continue.

The early church used the Septuagint

 

[eddif]

The people who wanted to destroy or change Christianity were the Jews, Pagans, Gnostic's, Mystics; and also the Catholics and Hellenist.

2 Corinthians 4
7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay (scriptures) to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8 We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed.

We are the jar of clay.

We are made of dust on the image of God .

Hebrews 10:16 kjv
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17. PAnd their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Revelation 3:20

The destruction of a Christian is to put them back under the law of Moses.

Hebrews 6:6 kjv
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now there is
A list of accomplishments is in Hebrews 6

eddif

 

[Free]

The early church used the Septuagint

Okay, but unless you show that the Septuagint says anything different, the points still stand.