Christians? Using self-defense and Guns?

[petester]

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[CenturionForChrist]

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[LovethroughDove]

Matthew 16:23-28 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but he things of men." Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

We take up our cross, just as Jesus did. He didn't go out with guns blazing. He is not afraid of death. He is not afraid of the sinner, cause he showed up for them. "US"

We are as Christians to walk in the footsteps of Christ, if you have been born again.

 

[Jesse]

It is not a sin to uphold justice. Again your taking the Bible out of context. Notice how that verse is rooted in the Old Testament? Abraham and trained warriors fought and rescued Lot from his captures in Genesis 14. David killed Goliath. Joshua led an army to Jericho and conquered it, the list goes on and on. Your also talking about revenge, an eye for an eye, which is never meant for the individual in the first place. Jesus corrected the Pharisee and their false oral doctrine by saying "You have heard it was said". Self defense in the moment of its occurrence is not revenge.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ Matthew 5:38

This was mentioned earlier in this thread, but it is really easy to sit behind a computer screen and yell/sream at those who support self defense, but humans have a great will to survive. If LtD were ever attacked, she's not going to stand there and let them do whatever they want. She'd be like the rest of us, use any means possible to stop them. God gave us survival instincts for a reason.

I honestly believe it's a sin to have a means to stop a rapist/killer and not do it.

A sin is knowing what to do and then not doing it, too.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This was mentioned earlier in this thread, but it is really easy to sit behind a computer screen and yell/sream at those who support self defense, but humans have a great will to survive. If LtD were ever attacked, she's not going to stand there and let them do whatever they want. She'd be like the rest of us, use any means possible to stop them. God gave us survival instincts for a reason.

I don't think it's necessary to present those who support peace as "yelling" or "screaming," this characterization can lead to the other party becoming enflamed and thus escalating the exchange.

I also don't think that the existence of survival instincts necessarily proves the right to retaliate with violence for the Christian. We have many natural and instinctual inclinations that we are told to not act in from Scripture. Hence, arguing that God gave us these things for a reason, (Scripture?) I think just begs the question.

 

[Jesse]

I don't think it's necessary to present those who support peace as "yelling" or "screaming," this characterization can lead to the other party becoming enflamed and thus escalating the exchange.

I also don't think that the existence of survival instincts necessarily proves the right to retaliate with violence for the Christian. We have many natural and instinctual inclinations that we are told to not act in from Scripture. Hence, arguing that God gave us these things for a reason, (Scripture?) I think just begs the question.

It's not retaliation, it's self defense - not the same thing.

You obviously have never been in a life threatening situation.

 

[CenturionForChrist]

I don't think it's necessary to present those who support peace as "yelling" or "screaming," this characterization can lead to the other party becoming enflamed and thus escalating the exchange.

I also don't think that the existence of survival instincts necessarily proves the right to retaliate with violence for the Christian. We have many natural and instinctual inclinations that we are told to not act in from Scripture. Hence, arguing that God gave us these things for a reason, (Scripture?) I think just begs the question.

Pure God given instincts are there for a reason. I like to compare using self-defense like sex. Sex can be a sin when done improperly, out of wedlock. Sex can also be a gift and righteous when done properly (in marriage). We are made in the image of God. God is justice.

Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness... Genesis 1:26
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48

 

[LovethroughDove]

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[Doulos Iesou]

It's not retaliation, it's self defense - not the same thing.

You obviously have never been in a life threatening situation.

We're talking about responding to physical force with physical force.

re·tal·i·ate
rəˈtalēˌāt/
verb

1. make an attack or assault in return for a similar attack.

One is not obligated to respond with violence when assaulted.

But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:39 (ESV)

In what context in your world does this text have actual application? Does this text not apply to instances of self-defense?

Also, I would avoid making personal statements such as: "You obviously have never been in a life threatening situation." Such statements are against the ToS that we both agreed to. I hope in the future that we can reasonably discuss the issues, rather than make personal responses. If not, then I will not be able to continue our dialogue.

Best Regards,
DI

 

[CenturionForChrist]

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[Doulos Iesou]

Pure God given instincts are there for a reason. I like to compare using self-defense like sex. Sex can be a sin when done improperly, out of wedlock. Sex can also be a gift and righteous when done properly (in marriage). We are made in the image of God. God is justice.

Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness... Genesis 1:26
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48

Where is it stated that the proclivity to respond to violence with violence is "God given?" When Jesus was struck, how did he respond?

When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 1 Peter 2:23 (ESV)

We aren't the judges, we entrust ourselves to him who judges justly, namely God.

I'm personally on the fence about this whole issue, and my reasoning is simply that I can't see self-defense or really any violence supported for the Christian from the perspective of Jesus' example during his earthly ministry.

 

[LovethroughDove]

He fought the physical war of our flesh. That is why we can overcome our flesh now. We are being changed into his likeness.

2 Corinthians 3:18

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Jesus came to pay the price for our sins he knew that, that was not his mission at the time to fight a physical war, it was written that it had to be done this way to atone for our sins.
"Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” Matthew 26:53-54.

Don't forget he will return with a sword and he with use physical force!

From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." Revelation 19:15-16

Jesus will come as the Just Judge to exact justice on the evil within the world. Does that example then give us the model for how we should react, are we commanded to follow that example, or the example of Jesus in the gospels?

Jesus didn't just refuse violence to make a prophesy happen, he resisted evil with non-violence as an example to us.

 

[Jesse]

We're talking about responding to physical force with physical force.

re·tal·i·ate
rəˈtalēˌāt/
verb

1. make an attack or assault in return for a similar attack.

One is not obligated to respond with violence when assaulted.

But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:39 (ESV)

In what context in your world does this text have actual application? Does this text not apply to instances of self-defense?

Also, I would avoid making personal statements such as: "You obviously have never been in a life threatening situation." Such statements are against the ToS that we both agreed to. I hope in the future that we can reasonably discuss the issues, rather than make personal responses. If not, then I will not be able to continue our dialogue.

Best Regards,
DI

This is the topic of the thread:
Self-defense
Self-defense or self-defence (see spelling differences) is a countermeasure that involves defending oneself, one's property, or the well-being of another from harm. The use of the right of self-defense as a legal justification for the use of force in times of danger is available in many jurisdictions, but the interpretation varies widely.

A person, who has defended their life, knows another one who has had their life threatened <is that better>.

 

[CenturionForChrist]

Where is it stated that the proclivity to respond to violence with violence is "God given?" When Jesus was struck, how did he respond?

When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 1 Peter 2:23 (ESV)

We aren't the judges, we entrust ourselves to him who judges justly, namely God.

I'm personally on the fence about this whole issue, and my reasoning is simply that I can't see self-defense or really any violence supported for the Christian from the perspective of Jesus' example during his earthly ministry.

Your on the fence because deep down in your heart you know what the right thing to do is. It is never right to stand idle while a child is raped or a innocent person is beaten to death.

"So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin." James 4:17

"Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause." Isaiah 1:17

 

[LovethroughDove]

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[WIP]

There have been a good percentage of posts that are unsupported and therefore, personal opinion. Per our Forum Guidelines, posts in opposition to another view must include scriptural support. ​

 

[CenturionForChrist]

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[LovethroughDove]

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[CenturionForChrist]

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