Church confusion....

[Laudate Dominum]

There's a difference between a perfect church and a doctrinally perfect Church. A person can preach all the right things but not put them into practice. The completely perfect church is in Heaven.

Then read my post right before that and you'll see I tried to clarify this (because I figured that's what you were thinking): that I was talking about as humanly instituted, not The Church. Because of course The Church is the Lord's own work.

That's why I'm not a member of a man-made church :wink: At least, as far as I know :-?

 

[cyberjosh]

That's why I'm not a member of a man-made church At least, as far as I know

I assume you attend one however. I do and most Chirstians do anyway. That was the whole focus of the OP, about human institued Churches, and a bit of the mess some of them have become. I for one though attend a good local Church that loves God.

Did you see my P.S. above?

 

[Laudate Dominum]

That's why I'm not a member of a man-made church At least, as far as I know

I assume you attend one however. I do and most Chirstians do anyway. That was the whole focus of the OP, about human institued Churches, and a bit of the mess some of them have become. I for one though attend a good local Church that loves God.

Did you see my P.S. above?

Now, when you assume, you make an a** out of you and me :wink:

Matthew 16:18 is commonly cited by Catholics as support for the papacy, but I'd lie to focus on the ending, that the "gates of Hell shall not prevail against it". I take this to mean that Jesus will guide His Church and keep it out of the power of the devil. This doesn't exclude the possibility of scandal- after all, Judas betrayed Jesus, it can't get much worse than that- and as long as we are on Earth the Church will be imperfect. That doesn't mean that a church will be doctrinally imperfect for its lack of perfect practice of those teachings. Do you understand?

PS: You can call me Tim

 

[cyberjosh]

Now, when you assume, you make an a** out of you and me

So you are saying that you don't attend one? If so I would point out that in Hebrews it urges Christians not to forsake the "gathering of yourselves together", in an ekklesia (literally "congregation").

That doesn't mean that a church will be doctrinally imperfect for its lack of perfect practice of those teachings. Do you understand?

I understand what you are trying to say, but let me ask you this: what do you think doctrine is? Doctrines are words and ideas used to explain spiritual truths to humans. I say that it is the conveyance of the spiritual truths themselves, and not the doctrines, that are necessarily untainted and perfect, for men can fail to adequately convey a doctrine properly in ther teachings. Do you see what I'm getting at?

At anyrate, we have had this discussion so far in a rather pleasant way, so would not like it to degenerate into a debate. If necessary I can take your points as they may fall and leave it at that.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Laudate Dominum]

Now, when you assume, you make an a** out of you and me

So you are saying that you don't attend one? If so I would point out that in Hebrews it urges Christians not to forsake the "gathering of yourselves together", in an ekklesia (literally "congregation").

My contention is that my Church is Christ-made, not that I don't attend church :-D

[quote:c1684]That doesn't mean that a church will be doctrinally imperfect for its lack of perfect practice of those teachings. Do you understand?

I understand what you are trying to say, but let me ask you this: what do you think doctrine is? Doctrines are words and ideas used to explain spiritual truths to humans. I say that it is the conveyance of the spiritual truths themselves, and not the doctrines, that are necessarily untainted and perfect, for men can fail to adequately convey a doctrine properly in ther teachings.[/quote:c1684]

Human words in many ways fail to express theoligcal truths, but certainly there are doctrines which can be explained in human terms, even if they can't be fully comprehended. It is the human mind that falls short, not the human language, in most cases.

 

[cyberjosh]

Oh also you may have missed it, but I had a question for you in one of my P.S.'s above:

P.S. There's like, totally got to be a shortening of your screen name I can use, because it's a pain to try to type that each time. Can " like call you "laud" or better yet, what's your real name?

Throw me a bone? :D

 

[Laudate Dominum]

Oh also you may have missed it, but I had a question for you in one of my P.S.'s above:

P.S. There's like, totally got to be a shortening of your screen name I can use, because it's a pain to try to type that each time. Can " like call you "laud" or better yet, what's your real name?

Throw me a bone? :D

I did! Didn't you see it? :-? Anyway, you can call me Tim.

 

[cyberjosh]

Human words in many ways fail to express theoligcal truths, but certainly there are doctrines which can be explained in human terms, even if they can't be fully comprehended. It is the human mind that falls short, not the human language, in most cases.

This is an incredible discussion we have been having, because we are both right but are coming at it from different angles. Very interesting.

 

[cyberjosh]

Oh also you may have missed it, but I had a question for you in one of my P.S.'s above:

P.S. There's like, totally got to be a shortening of your screen name I can use, because it's a pain to try to type that each time. Can " like call you "laud" or better yet, what's your real name?

Throw me a bone? :D

I did! Didn't you see it? :-? Anyway, you can call me Tim.

LOL. I missed YOUR P.S. :D

Thanks Tim.

 

[Laudate Dominum]

Human words in many ways fail to express theoligcal truths, but certainly there are doctrines which can be explained in human terms, even if they can't be fully comprehended. It is the human mind that falls short, not the human language, in most cases.

This is an incredible discussion we have been having, because we are both right but are coming at it from different angles. Very interesting.

The Trinity, for example, can be expressed in the human language, but the mind cannot comprehend how it is so. Some can be fully comprehended and expressed. Nothing comes to mind that we would agree on, though :wink:

 

[cyberjosh]

[quote="Laudate Dominum":49029]Human words in many ways fail to express theoligcal truths, but certainly there are doctrines which can be explained in human terms, even if they can't be fully comprehended. It is the human mind that falls short, not the human language, in most cases.

This is an incredible discussion we have been having, because we are both right but are coming at it from different angles. Very interesting.

The Trinity, for example, can be expressed in the human language, but the mind cannot comprehend how it is so. Some can be fully comprehended and expressed. Nothing comes to mind that we would agree on, though :wink:[/quote:49029]


Well I think if you'll look back though through this discussion staring out with the "Church" discussion you'll see we never disagreed in the first place, just perhaps misunderstood along the way. There is no perfect institutional Church, but there is a perfect Church in Christ (as you said). And spiritual truths can indeed be conveyed in human terms, but no Church has the perfect "list" of doctrines, unless they just quote Scripture without commenting on it. ;)

 

[cyberjosh]

I'm headed to bed. G'night. God Bless.

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

My contention is that my Church is Christ-made, not that I don't attend church

I'm headed to bed. G'night. God Bless.
~Josh

:D Josh must have been tired. I was thinking you meant the Catholic church wasn't man-made. 8-)

 

[Laudate Dominum]

My contention is that my Church is Christ-made, not that I don't attend church

[quote:d8e2d]I'm headed to bed. G'night. God Bless.
~Josh

:D Josh must have been tired. I was thinking you meant the Catholic church wasn't man-made. 8-)[/quote:d8e2d]

Interpret that statement how you will- I will neither confirm nor deny it :wink:

 

[Vic C.]

OK, I'll just fix my quotes instead. ;-)

 

[Beezer]

Sorry for the delay. I am unable to get on this site on a daily basis. I too am in college... but with a 50 year old brain that may have some wisdom, yet works much slower.
Thank you all for your personal enlightenments and comments.

I believe that it is important to research the past (whether it is personal or world-church history) so that we will be able to understand where we have come from (what has molded us). This in turn will help tell us where we are today (to evaluate what is truth and what is not), so that we can make the decision for our future.
God is the same yesterday, today, and always. He never changes. People, on the other hand, do not change their behavior unless they decide in some way to make a change. Many are sleepwalking within life. Many are in a "stupor". Many appear to be spiritually dead while others pretend that they are so full of life. But God is Life and without Him they are just pretenders... and all these kind are within the church...

A quick look...
In looking within the 7 churches in the Book of Rev., Christ is speaking to us...
Ephesus: They leave their first love - Christ. Have traditions of men become more important than the Truth?
Smyrna: They have those within that "claim to be Jews" (Christians) that cause chaos within.
Pergamum: Teachings of Balaam and Balak (hire out for their sake and not for the love of righteousness and the Truth). Nicolaitans (unsure - is this no decipline, anything goes?).
Thyatira: Jezebel: The one who wanted to do what she wanted and she killed the prophets because of it.
Sardis: Garments are soiled (the clothing we wear are the righteous deeds that we do Rev.19:8). They have little to no righteous deeds.
Philadelphia: Again "those that claim to be Jews (Christians)and are not continue to cause chaos.
Laodicea: I see pride here with no good deeds (clothing)...

This is the early church and the churches today. I only see 2 churches that are completely functional within the ways of God and they have struggles to contend with. The others are dysfunctional (have some form of unrighteousness and truth)...
I know that God keeps a remnant... I know that He is in control. I believe He will bring me to where I am suppose to be. In the meantime He is keeping me busy to make sure I, being a church, do not fall within what he warns us about. I am surrounded by many who do not know Him and need Him. I have come from a very dysfunctional (not of God) family. Abuse, in its many forms took place. Unrighteousness and untruth surrounds all and therefore much pain. I have lived it. I feel I am being put in a position to help guide those (lost) either back to their Shepherd or to their Savior to come to know Him...my family and friends. This is a heavy load at times and I feel so unworthy.
Enough of that! This is a debate....tell me what you know and/or what you think!
Beezer

 

[Imagican]

Josh, I'm sure you've heard this before:

If you find the perfect church, don't join it. It won't be perfect anymore.

:-D

But!!! Be YE Holy AS Christ IS Holy.


1Cor.5
[1] It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
[2] And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
[3] For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[4] In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[6] Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
[7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
[8] Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
[9] I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
[10] Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
[11] But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
[12] For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
[13] But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Hmmmmm...............It would SEEM that 'something' has CHANGED. That SOMEHOW the 'Church' to which Paul refers SEEMS to have BECOME non-existant. For when we TEACH that there is NO SUCH THING as a 'perfect Chruch', we DEFY Christ and we dishonor God Himself. For there MAY NOT be 'perfect MAN-MADE churches', but THE Church IS to BE HOLY. Those that ARE 'followers of Christ in DEED as WELL AS WORD, THESE ARE The Church of Christ. And those that would TEACH that 'we're NOT perfect' and that 'we CAN'T overcome sin, these would lead us to a liberalism that was NEVER taught by the apostles. NEVER offered in Word by Christ and SURELY must grieve God in MUCH measure.

Now, that WE are UNABLE to form and organize a 'building of worship' that IS perfect does NOT negate that there ARE members of Christ's Church that ARE HOLY. Those that DO conform to that which has been PROMISED.

And guys, THIS is the REASON that the 'end is near'. For IF God does NOT shorten the days, EVEN the VERY elect WILL BE LOST. And 'the churches' are the MAIN culprit of spreading that which would lead to DEATH rather than LIFE. Teaching that ALL it takes to to SAY that Jesus is God. Teaching that it is THEY that we should worship and their BUILDING that we should LOVE. And THEM that we should support in a grand manner so that THEY will PRAY FOR US. Teaching to 'give up' responsibility and place one's FAITH in 'their church'. To GIVE TO THEM so that God will Bless YOU. Us and THEM mentality. And ALL the while making merchandise of those that are WILLING to follow THEM.

Good Luck..

MEC

 

[stranger]

Beezer wrote:

. . . I only see 2 churches that are completely functional within the ways of God and they have struggles to contend with. The others are dysfunctional (have some form of unrighteousness and truth)...
I know that God keeps a remnant... I know that He is in control. I believe He will bring me to where I am suppose to be. In the meantime He is keeping me busy to make sure I, being a church, do not fall within what he warns us about. I am surrounded by many who do not know Him and need Him.

Does 'being a church' mean you have started a church or fellowship of some description? I think that the end of the age will have an affect upon the church worldview for the better. The state of the church in the western world should not be considered as representative of the state of the church worldwide.

 

[stranger]

Imagican wrote:

But!!! Be YE Holy AS Christ IS Holy.

Hmmmmm...............It would SEEM that 'something' has CHANGED. That SOMEHOW the 'Church' to which Paul refers SEEMS to have BECOME non-existant. For when we TEACH that there is NO SUCH THING as a 'perfect Chruch', we DEFY Christ and we dishonor God Himself. For there MAY NOT be 'perfect MAN-MADE churches', but THE Church IS to BE HOLY. Those that ARE 'followers of Christ in DEED as WELL AS WORD, THESE ARE The Church of Christ. And those that would TEACH that 'we're NOT perfect' and that 'we CAN'T overcome sin, these would lead us to a liberalism that was NEVER taught by the apostles. NEVER offered in Word by Christ and SURELY must grieve God in MUCH measure.

Now, that WE are UNABLE to form and organize a 'building of worship' that IS perfect does NOT negate that there ARE members of Christ's Church that ARE HOLY. Those that DO conform to that which has been PROMISED.

Hi MEC,

I agree that the church should be holy. But what is the way forward?

 

[Imagican]

The MEMBERS of the Body are to BE Holy JUST as Christ was/IS Holy. To GO forward we MUST 'put AWAY' the 'old man' and become NEW.

Many would TEACH that this is IMPOSSIBLE. For MANY would teach that we are UNABLE to 'overcome' sin. What this teaches is only PARTIAL TRUTH. For, while we will NEVER be 'sinless' in the flesh, we ARE able to overcome sin through The Spirit, through Christ.

HOW? We COME TO CHRIST FIRST. We LEARN of and grow IN Christ. And we FOLLOW His commandments. We grow OUT OF THIS WORLD and INTO Christ.

This IS accomplished through the means that we have been offered. We are ABLE to learn through The Word, and be strengthened through The Spirit. We STAND UP and take responsibility for our actions. We ARE repentant of our sins and we ASK for the strength to OVERCOME. We fast, we pray and we OFFER our love at EVERY opportunity. We PUT ASIDE self and become devoted to 'something GREATER than ourselves'. We PUT ON the WHOLE armour of God and wear it EVERY second of our daily lives.

And stranger, IF we are UNWILLING to DO these things, we are UNWORTHY to bear the title of 'God's sons'. We are simply fooling ourselves into a false sense of security. We BECOME those of the church of Laodecia. Those that will step to Christ and point out 'all the wonderous things that we've done in HIS NAME'. Only to be left with the words, "Go away from me, for I DO NOT EVEN KNOW YOU".

We were NEVER told that it would be without trials and hardship. We WERE told that we would NEVER be given MORE than we could bear. But SO MANY have chosen the 'easy way out'. To live for and love THEMSELVES above all else. Chosing to break promises to God and our neighbors for the sake of PERSONAL PLEASURE.

We MUST come to an understanding that WE and this world are IMMATERIAL. That the Spiritual is MORE than than the material. That our COMFORT is NOT the MOST important aspect of our lives and that to follow that which IS WILL consist of discomfort at times, (most of the time for we LIVE in a world that is waning WORSE AND WORSE). For we cannot BE LOVE without witnessing all the HATE that exists in this world. WE WILL SUFFER in this world.

We were TOLD to follow Christ. How can we BELIEVE that we DO if we are unwilling to suffer what is placed before us? How could we POSSIBLY believe that we can 'make it through this life' WITHOUT suffering?

Christ DID offer the ULTIMATE sacrifice, but WE TOO are required to 'sacrifice'. We are to sacrifice ourSELVES. That which we would OPT to do in order to appease the FLESH MUST BE ABANDCONED. And the ONLY WAY is to sacrifice the FLESH through DENIAL of it's desire.

Can you IMAGINE soldiers being sent to battle WITHOUT 'training'? How about an olypic runner with NO experience? Would you want a surgeon PRACTICING on YOU without 6 years of school and a dozen IN EXPERIENCE?

So too are WE to LEARN and become EXPERIENCED. So too are we to WORK at it. For we have been told to RUN THE RACE as if we MEAN TO WIN IT. We ARE told to 'fight the good fight'. We are told that it's BETTER to LOOSE an eye than to allow it to condemn us to death. We ARE TOLD that it's UP TO US to offer ourselves as HUMAN SACRIFICE in the sense that we ARE to 'put away the flesh', DIE to the FLESH and become 'born again' in Spirit.

If we continually place our FAITH in 'others' to LEAD US that have NO CLUE to BEGIN with, then we are doomed to suffer the SAME fate as these. ONLY when we are ABLE to 'stand on our OWN TWO FEET' will we EVER be ABLE to DO that which we have been commanded to DO.

Let me ask you this: What FEELINGS do you suppose would be invoked in one who was there to TEACH YOU only for them to RECOGNIZE that they were UNABLE to DO SO for YOU were gifted with knowledge that went WELL beyond theirs to START WITH. How would the 'teacher FEEL' about such. MOST would do whatever they could to discredit you. To attempt to 'turn others away from you'. WHY. Self preservation. In order to SLEEP with themselves at night, their NATURE would BE to convince themselves that YOU were the ONE that was ignorant. That YOU were the one that was 'hard-headed'. That YOU were UNABLE to learn for you inability to accept that THEY were the TEACHERS.

We can plainly see this SAME mentality throughout history. The Jewish religious system became so powerful that ANYONE, (the prophets), that came along and disputed their teachings they IMMEDIATELY took offense and belittled those that WERE entrusted with the TRUTH. The CC has done the EXACT same thing. And NOT ONLY the CC but MOST of the denoms that I am familiar with have done the SAME THING. If one comes along that HAS TRUTH to offer and a message of 'getting back on the PATH', they will simply attempt to discredit this individual for the SAKE OF THEMSELVES OR THEIR DENOMINATIONAL church.

So, beware of those that would become complacent and teach YOU that this is OK. For we are NOT to BE passive BELIEVERS. We ARE TO BE PASSIONATE BELIEVERS that are willing to FIGHT AND DIE for The TRUTH.

How many aloholic START OUT 'drinking alone'? How many become DRUG ADDICTS ALONE? They may END up alone when their drinking or drugging become SO BAD that no one will PUT UP WITH THEM, but they ALL start out with their FELLOW abusers. And what is the FIRST reaction to one who decides to CEASE their alcohol use or drug abuse? Those that are STILL partaking will inevitably separate themselves from their PREVIOUS BROTHER OR SISTER in 'abuse'.

Keep these things in mind when you are confronted by those that will TELL YOU that you MUST do it THEIR WAY or you are NOT a 'part of the scene'. ANY church that would INSIST that YOU MUST be a 'part of their church' in order to PLEASE God or follow truth is to be avoided at all costs. For these are LOST. For IF they were truly SAVED, they would KNOW that God does NOT require ANYONE to be a part of ANY church except THE CHURCH. And THE CHURCH is a 'temple within' the hearts and minds of those that ARE followers of Christ.

And herein LIES the 'confusion of the churches'........................

MEC

MEC