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Church confusion....

AMEN!!!!
My point in starting this post is that their are many individuals and organizations (each churches in Christ) that are suppose to be striving in Christ yet have either missed the boat completely, regressed, or have not grown in Him.

Why? ....(Please note: The personal examples I give does not necessarily mean I believe they represent the church sect that has portrayed them).

Could be that they rely on others to have a relationship with God instead of themselves to lead them. Church organizations can do this too... I went to a inter nondenominational church one time and the pastor was deathly ill. The rest of the church became in shambles beyond the expected grief. Faith in God for God to lead them and their pastor was rare to find. The church became in chaos, corruption with false teaching entered.
Also, I went to another church (Wesleyan)... Oh where do I begin!!!???!!! The Sunday school adult class was set up to where "the most knowledgeable" were setting in the front (all men). The rest of us were allowed to listen to their study. The lay pastor made the comment that Moses was not allowed in the promise land because "he was a murderer"... Now, because I was not an elder and probably because I am a woman, I was not suppose to respond... (at that time I was newly brought to Christ and I should have responded, but I didn't - learned a lesson. I contributed to the mis teaching by being quiet). Can't this contribute to being astray?

Could be they have doctrinal superiority over what God really wants. Example: If God has forgiven someone for their divorce (was that a Baptist Church?), etc. and is calling him OR her to do something, what right has someone else or the church to keep them from doing it? If God forgives, why can't the church? Are they relaying that divorce is an unforgivable sin in doing this?
What about women? God does call them... If it wasn't for Abigail her family would have died. If it wasn't for Deborah and Jael Israel would have been defeated....

I can't tell you how many churches I went to that from the pulpit condemnation came out of the mouth concerning other denominations... "lock your car doors because many thefts have taken place. It's probably the Baptist church down the street (made by the priest of the Catholic church) ..." or "Catholics are the Antichrist" ( made by a pastor from a nondenominational church)...

Then I went to a Lutheran church where it was Holy damnation coming from the pulpit. Coming from abuse, this caused so much anxiety... did not even want to return to find out about them... I needed love, not fear.

I did not give the Episcopalian church much chance because of an outside incident. A friend of mine was adopted by an Episcopalian pastor and his wife. She was sexually abused by her brother, their son. They covered it up because of their position within the church... You can not imagine the further trauma this caused her. She did go to drugs and have all the issues from that. They condemned her and sent her away. She had a child from another man, unmarried. They, to my knowledge, did not try to help her with her problem. They just wanted to cover it up. When she later married a man that was nice to her and her son, they tried to take away her son because he came from a family that was Jehovah Witness. Her being an unfit mother because of the drugs and they looking to be so righteous was easy to prove. The court took her son away and put him in the hands of her brother who molested her (he is also bisexual). She committed suicide. That didn't appear to be enough for them... They took her husband to court for her ashes because they wanted them within the walls of the church...so she could be "saved".

This is what motivates me... This is what I see and it saddens me... How dangerous it is to not have faith, not to have a personal relationship with God (knowing Him for He is Love, righteousness, The Way to Truth), and to have unrighteousness that guides you.....

We need to unite and pray for the churches (individuals and organizations)....

Beezer
 
Amen, my brother.

But it took GENERATIONS upon GENERATIONS for the 'churches' to COME to the PLACE that they ARE. Do you REACON that it's EVEN POSSIBLE for them to 'go back'?

For we KNOW that there MUST be a 'falling away'. That BEFORE Christ RETURNS, this planet's inhabitants NEED become SO FAR 'off the mark' that God cannot STAND IT any longer. That there must BE 'so much' apostacy that He DARE NOT let it continue lest EVEN the VERY ELECT be 'taken away' into an UNNATURAL worship of that which is NOT God.

I believe that what we are witnessing is JUST such occasion. That the 'end is near'. That WE have become SO COMPLACENT that we have 'lost our way' and it's ONLY going to 'wax worse'.

Some would offer that 'religion' is BIGGER than EVER. I would be FORCED to agree. The PROBLEM is that it's JUST THAT: Religion. Nothing 'Holy or pure', just simply BELIEF. Belief in that which is of 'one's OWN' rather than what has been offered through Word and Spirit. People FLOCKING for ENTERTAINMENTS sake and 'practicing CHURCHOLOGY' rather than even ATTEMPTING to FOLLOW in 'righteousness'. Devoted MORE to the 'organization' and those in attendance than God or His Son.

But confusion is the NATURE of this world. Inserting it's OWN wisdom in those places reserved for TRUE wisdom. Attempting to be It's OWN god for the sake of self. And intentionally BLINDING itself to ANY form of 'purity' for the sake of the FLESH. Personal DESIRES being the 'name of the game' and 'self gratification' the means to it's OWN END.

MEC
 
No, I have not "started a church". I do not feel that I am called to do so. I am however, taking classes at college on the new testament this summer to understand the history and location of the letters written. This is helping me with my studies.

I have mentioned that I come from dysfunction. I am in the process of trying to help guide my niece as best as I can to and in Christ. Her family split her and her sister up when they were young. She lived with her father while her sister lived with their mother. At this time I was not within her or her sister's life.
We refused to have anything to do with their lifestyle. Their mother is an alcoholic and moved away with the youngest. My nieces' father would leave her all by herself beginning when she was in 5th grade. When I found out I called social services who claimed that their was not enough info to investigate. I also spoke to teachers and the principle of the school which she later left. We could do nothing. Her father deals drugs and is addicted himself. He is verbally and physically abusive and one of his friends was sexually abusive to her. She is now 26, unmarried, with a 4 year old son and still lives with him. She has had trouble herself with drugs and is trying to overcome. I have taken her to the womens shelter but she is not ready to stay. She still continues to go back and forth (batter womens syndrome) to him. I took her sister in recently and she overstepped her boundaries and destroyed things within our home. I had to kick her out. I know now that I cannot take on the burden of others if they refuse to help themselves. I can only help them while they carry their own burden, support them and guide them.

What does this have to do with anything?

I have so much to learn, yet I can teach Christ through example and what I know.

I am considering starting a Bible study with her... SHE ASKED ME! I have not been lead yet as to where to start or how to go about it. I feel that we need to go to the Gospel of John first and then precept upon precept from Gen. to Rev.

Please pray....

Definitely...the end is near and lets sing " the song of Moses" for the truth to be revealed to all!!!

Beezer
 
Forgive me but I am a bit computer illiterate. Not sure how to make a simple quote...

Yes, avoid those that say they are the only organization to God!

I went to a church that I will not mention the organization because there are many like them. Anyway, they were having their form of communion. I was not allowed to participate because I was not a member.

I had been baptized in Christ.... a complete change within my life... and there is only one baptism unto God.

They were like the story of the prodigal son. When I returned to my fathers house after leaving for so long, my brethren did not want me there so easily. They wanted me to have endured everything they had to endure. I know my Heavenly Father was thrilled that I came back to Him and He wanted me to participate with a feast...a celebration... but my brethren, well, they did not! They were now the lost ones...

Beezer
 
If you find the perfect church, don't join it. It won't be perfect anymore.
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That's one of my favorites. Jesus didn't come to establish an organization...
 
This is a great topic, Beezer.

I'm no Biblical scholar, but I CAN read, and I do consider myself a student of the Bible.

I came to Christ late (I just thank God that it wasn't too late), in my mid-fifties.

Not long after becoming a Christian, as I diligently studied the scriptures, I came to see that we (my congregation, as well as the church as a whole) were not scripturally obedient in our practice of the Lord's Supper. The leadership rejected my pleas to follow the Biblical examples and commands exactly, and finally kicked me out.

As far as I can tell, no mainstream church in America is obediently practicing the Lord's Supper. And this is with the scriptures themselves telling us all that partaking of the communion in an unworthy manner is to bring damnation to ourselves.

I'm now having to temper my belief that obedient Christians can be found in every congregation of every church/denomination throughout the world, with the concerns of how can one truly be an obedient Christian if they are participating/supporting a congregation that is following a flawed interpretation of the scriptures.

I know that even the best Christian falls way short of the teachings found in the scriptures. I'm just hopeful that there are entire congregations/churches where the undiluted truth is being taught. And, I wish that there was one in my neighborhood, and yours, too!

I am about to decide that heaven will be populated only by small groups of Christians which meet in homes (...where two or three are gathered, Christ will be there...), rather than in grand church buildings.

Just by my study of 1 Corinthians 11, have I experienced all of this turmoil and strife.

What is my study of the rest of the scriptures going to bring?

God bless us all,

Pogo
 
It's impossible to find the perfect church when they're made of imperfect people. No church can be perfect, but people can contribute to each community to make it better.
 
It's impossible to find the perfect church when they're made of imperfect people. No church can be perfect, but people can contribute to each community to make it better.
Click to expand...

It took a while but I finally realized that a perfect church did not exist. That's when I decided to stop searching for a perfect church and instead search for the true Church. You might have to do some research to find it, but once you start looking with an open heart, you will most likely find it.
 
A-Christian -

There is much that I don't know.

But, I do know that America, as we know it today, would be a much different place, if it had not been for those seeking a place to worship our God free from the corruption of the Catholic church.

They have killed more Christians than all the pagans cults combined!

I wish that I could thank you for your efforts here, but I can't. There is much truth here in these threads, but there is much error, also.

May you come to know the truth while you vist this site.

God bless us all,

Pogo
 
Pogo said:
A-Christian -

There is much that I don't know.

But, I do know that America, as it is today, would be a much different place, if it had not been for those seeking a place to worship our God free from the corruption of the Catholic church.

They have killed more Christians than all the pagans cults combined!
Click to expand...

Well, now you have proven you don't know your history, either...

Most Americans seeking religious freedom were running from PROTESTANT persecutions, especially Calvinists in England.

As to "killing Christians", do you mean Protestants killing other Protestants during wars? Or Protestants burning Protestant heretics? Or Protestants burning women "witches"? Seems like Christians do have a bad history on that account, not just Catholics.

Regards
 
fran,

You are indeed a 'slickster' with words.

while what you offer is 'a partial truth' in that the Church of England IS considered to BE a Protestant denomination BY the CC, it is by NO means that which differed in theology OVER the CC itself. the ONLY basic 'difference' was that it simply REFUSED to accept that the POPE had ANY authority over the Church of England. But in PRINCIPLE, the theology was BASICALLY the SAME as that of the CC.

Those that became pilgrims were indeed persecuted by those of what the Catholic Chuch would CONSIDER to BE 'Protestants'. But ONLY in that they SEPARATED themselves from Papal authority. For even today we see that MOST of the theology of the Church of England is STILL that which was introduced by The Roman Catholic Church. Differences? MINUTE. the most OBVIOUS difference IS the separation of Papal authority.

So, you choose to 'mince words' rather than accept WHAT was offered as being BASICALLY THE TRUTH. For those in England were STILL worshiping with ritual and pagentry that was TAUGHT to them BY the Catholic Church. While the CATHOLICS certainly DID consider them to BE Protestants, the Pilgrims were rebelling against the THEOLOGY and persecution FROM those that followed a 'certain theology' that was UNMISTAKABLY Roman Catholic in NATURE. OTHER THAN the refusal to BOW to the POPE, their 'religion' was barely able to be distinguished as DIFFERENT from that of the CC.

What was BROUGHT to America was a 'serarating' from that ORGANIZED religion of both the RCC and The Church of ENGLAND which was practically indistinguishable from the each other EXCEPT for Papal authority being DENIED by the Church of England.

So, while you would choose to take the TRUTH out of the argument by claiming a separateness of the CC from the Church of England, in TRUTH what they chose to SEPARATE themselves from was the AUTHORITY that had been taught BY the CC and was nothing other than a 'carry over' INTO the Church of England.

To the TRUE Protestants, there was NO DIFFERENCE in theology. And it was the RULERSHIP and theology GIVEN the Church of England that those that called themselves Pilgrims were LEAVING BEHIND in search of a 'better way'. Did they FIND IT? Who know? But they CERTAINLY established it and from all appearances God Blessed them for QUITE some time for they FLOURISHED in their worship of God WITHOUT the CC or the Church of England to BE 'their Church'. Without EITHER there to TELL them HOW they were to worship THEIR God. Without EITHER able to murder or perscute for the simple purpose of separation of 'beliefs'. Strong men with strong wills and a devotion to God and His Son that has been UNRIVALED since.

And YES, these too were the product of CENTURIES of 'brainwashing' and it took MUCH time for them to TRULY 'start over'. Most have YET to come t o a complete NEWNESS of Faith to this day.

Blessings,

MEC
 
Imagican said:
while what you offer is 'a partial truth' in that the Church of England IS considered to BE a Protestant denomination BY the CC, it is by NO means that which differed in theology OVER the CC itself. the ONLY basic 'difference' was that it simply REFUSED to accept that the POPE had ANY authority over the Church of England. But in PRINCIPLE, the theology was BASICALLY the SAME as that of the CC.
Click to expand...

That is not really an accurate statement. Episcopalians believe in sola scriptura, for example. With the exception of High Church Anglicans, (called "anglo-catholic" by many) you are incorrect regarding the theology that is "basically the same". And of course, I don't see what the point is, since it was Anglicans following their king, rather than Rome, who found it necessary to persecute Catholics and other Christians. Thus, the Puritans left England...

Imagican said:
Those that became pilgrims were indeed persecuted by those of what the Catholic Chuch would CONSIDER to BE 'Protestants'. But ONLY in that they SEPARATED themselves from Papal authority.
Click to expand...

They are Protestant in every definition of the word. ALL Protestants believe in Catholic doctrines, such as Jesus died on the cross for mankind. What is your point? That all persecution comes from Catholic or Catholic-like doctrines???? That is assinine.

Imagican said:
What was BROUGHT to America was a 'serarating' from that ORGANIZED religion of both the RCC and The Church of ENGLAND which was practically indistinguishable from the each other EXCEPT for Papal authority being DENIED by the Church of England.
Click to expand...

Who was persecuting the Pilgrims? Catholics? YOU are the word-smith here, bud...

Regards
 
fran,

What I am offering is that the CC introduced the CONCEPT of a 'state religion' into CHRISTIANITY. Modeled MUCH like the Jewish faith PREVIOUS to Christianity in that ALL those that would profess a BELIEF would be GUIDED by those considered to BE inspired. The Jews had the family line that were the designated PRIESTS and the Catholic Church instituted a similar leadership as well.

Yet there is LITTLE if ANY reference to such a POLITICAL struction through the offerings of Christ OR the apostles. Bishops, ABSOLUTELY. Deacons, these are mentioned TOO. But the STRUCTURE that was introduced by the CC was NEVER offered in scripture. The BEST that is ABLE to be offered is that it was ORAL tradition rather than scriptural. And it seems suspect at this for there IS mention by Paul as to the STRUCTURE of the Church. But NO WHERE have I found any resemblance to that which was introduced by those in Rome.

For the Church existed PREVIOUS to the introduction of Christ to those in OTHER parts of the world. The Church STARTED in Israel. If the Holy Spirit fell upon those in Jeruslem FIRST, then most assuredly The Church was STARTED at that moment. We have NO evidence that there were ANY such 'political structure' as we SEE in the RCC offered either in scripture or even in the traditions of those IN Jerusalem.

But we CAN see that there WERE religions PREVIOUS to Christianity IN Rome and Italy that MORE closely resemble the ritual and pagentry that was INTRODUCED into Christianity BY these people. Such a ULTIMATE representatives, (priests) and such. The apostles from their writtings SHUNED such practices. Offering to those that would bow at their feet that they were NOT to treat them in ANY such manner. And that the apostles THROUGH example, did their OWN work and offered their OWN support. Yes, it is offered that those that serve are worthy of the congregations support, but what PAUL offered is that HE was the example that ALL should follow. And he PLAINLY offers that he often times used his OWN money in the support of The Church. And all the while SUPPORTING HIMSELF as well.

All I am offering is that the CC introduced the CONCEPT of the 'governmental or church body' as we see it today. And we have NO evidence that this is ANYTHING but THEIR 'creation'. that what evidence we have as offered BY the apostles is that NO SUCH governmental body EXISTED durring THEIR Time.

You would argue against this, but the scriptures BEAR out what I am offering.

Now, as concerns the Church of England verses the CC, compared to the FORM of worship and government offered up by the Pilgrims or puritans, BOTH the COE AND THE CC are VERY Close in structure in comparison. They even wear similar costumes and practice similar RITUAL such as communion and such.

What I was attempting to clarify is that YOU were attempting to offer your argument over a technicality of words. For ABOUT the ONLY difference between the Church of England four hundred years ago and the RCC was that the COE had REFUSED Papal authority. They STOPED allowing the CHURCH to BE the HEAD of the GOVERNMENT. The King of England STOPED allowing religion to dictate and took the power BACK into his OWN hands. OTHER than that, the TWO religions were PRACTICALLY IDENTICAL.

The pomp and pagentry was PRACTICALY identical for it was TAUGHT to those in England BY those in ROME. We can see much more clearly defined differences NOW than those that existed FOUR hundred years ago.

The CC certainly considered the COE to BE protestant in nature. But ONLY in that the COE had DENIED the Papal authority that the RCC still abides by.

To ME, there is NO difference in the two so far as dogma and doctrine OTHER THAN the denial of Papal authority. But they STILL continue to have their OWN form of Pope in replacement of that in ROME. So basically, they just took the POWER out of the hands of the POPE and placed it BACK in the hands of the KING. And even then instituted ALMOST the same religeous GOVERNMENT patterned AFTER that in ROME. Just with LESS power at times.

We could go on and on with this subject but suffice is to say that the comment made about the puritans WAS legitimate. They certainly DID start OVER with a different form of religious government. Separating themselves from BOTH the COE and the RCC, they BEGAN a NEW sort of 'belief system'. But even then they carried MUCH of their previous affiliation with BOTH into their NEW form of 'religion'.

We can SEE that the East and the West STILL have their differences to this DAY concerning the governing of the church. So even after all this time they STILL cannot come to a 'complete agreement' so far as logistics. and the MAIN reason is that it's MOSTLY 'guesswork' as relates to HOW the church IS to be governed. But if what I offer is truth then there is NO NEED for arguments or disagreement. Those that are Led BY THE Spirit need NO 'guidance of men'' that would hold PHYSICAL authority OVER them. They would simply follow in Spirit with Christ AS the Head of HIS Church. Putting away the rudiments of men in favor of that which is offered in Spirit.

Blessings,

MEC
 
Imagican said:
fran,

What I am offering is that the CC introduced the CONCEPT of a 'state religion' into CHRISTIANITY.....
Click to expand...

horse apples
 
well, let's see.The Jews didn't accept Christianity as a STATE religion, so THEY certainly didn't introduce such into Christianity. That ONLY leaves ONE group to DO so. If NOT the CC, then WHO introduced 'their' religious order into Christianity?

Now, I really DON'T want to MAKE this a 'Catholic debate' arena. REALLY DON'T.

But, since we DO discuss the issue of 'the churches', it shouldn't really BE considered tabu to consider the CC a 'part' of this topic. IF one insists upon offering that SUCH leadership was MEANT to BE, then WE should certainly be ABLE to ASK for the PROOF of such offering.

Now, I am MORE than willing to offer scripture or history to back up my claims. But IF those that would submit offerings are UNABLE to do so, then that speaks volumes so far as their THEOLOGY is concerned.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
well, let's see.The Jews didn't accept Christianity as a STATE religion, so THEY certainly didn't introduce such into Christianity. That ONLY leaves ONE group to DO so. If NOT the CC, then WHO introduced 'their' religious order into Christianity?
Click to expand...

If a state wants to make a particular religion the state religion, thats on them. If Bush wants to make Methodism our official religion, who are you going to blame, the Methodists?
 
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