Church = Israel?

[liafailrock]

I can find scholars that believe all kinds of theories. Please remember that the scholars of Jesus' era, the scribes, dismissed Jesus as the Messiah because He didn't fit their interpretation. At best, this issue is debatable. I need for you to show me that this is not, "...every wind of doctrine..." (Ephesians 4:14). Sorry, but this is all I'm seeing in your messages on your web site; your interpretation of prophecy verses someone elses. You even state yourself that, "...neither side will be convinced at the others' argument."

I'm not sure the point you're making here. If anything, my scholars are in the minority, but enough of them to take a serious look. In Jesus' time, those opposing scholars would have been in the majority (the likes of which question my stance). So if anything, if you are going with what's accepted by the mainline, then by your argument one should actually lean towards the minority view like mine (as Jesus was also and still is in the minority view).

As for "wind of doctrine", then what can you suggest to explain what I am explaining about the tribes of Israel? If I ever hear a more plausible theory, then I am all ears--- remember, it must conform to scripture as well. The truth is, nobody has a better explanation--- the teaching is scoffed at, but the serious questions are not dealt with and instead swept under the rug. That does not sound like scholarship to me. The lack of convincing one of an argument does not equate the argument with falsehood.

Explain to me, please, how this agrees with 2 Corinthians 1:20, which tells me that I am entitled to all of God's promises through Jesus. This is what I mean when I say, "how does this point people toward Jesus". Jesus is all that anyone needs to receive God's promises. It's all about Jesus, not about if you're this or if you're that.

Romans 8:14 tells me that if I am led by the Spirit of God I am considered a son, and 15 says that I am adopted into the family of God. So, I'm covered by Jesus and by the Holy Spirit, as I've received them both.

What are the promises in Christ? One has a heavenly inheritance, one has a better priest, they are priesthood of believers, the believer becomes a king with Christ, etc. etc. Whatever is promised to the Christian is "yea" in Christ. That's what this means. Don't confuse this, however, with the physical promises to Israel. The nation of people may be numerous, they become many nations, they have Kings they are powerful and blessed, etc. but that does not mean that such a person is saved (spiritually). This is an earthly counterpart to the heavenly all woven together to fit God's purpose.

Romans 9:6, "Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to the Jews? No, for not everyone born into a Jewish family is truly a Jew!" Your statement seems to contradict this, or am I misunderstanding you?

Yes, you are misunderstanding me. Let me correct that corrupt translation:

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

It does not say Jews. Jews are Israelites, not all Isrealites are Jews. I also have a KJV bible to download. Maybe you should read from that translation instead otherwise additional confusion will result.

 

[kwag_myers]

I'm not sure the point you're making here.

Actually, Jesus was anything but mainline. That's what got Him crucified. The point that I'm trying to make is that having scholars in your camp is not enough for me. I may read the book latter on, I just can't right now with all my current commitments. And I'm putting it low on my list because I have all that I need in Christ. What more could I possibly need?

Don't confuse this, however, with the physical promises to Israel.

Sorry, but 2 Corinthians 1:20 says "...all the promises...". No distinction between physical or otherwise.

It does not say Jews. Jews are Israelites, not all Isrealites are Jews. I also have a KJV bible to download. Maybe you should read from that translation instead otherwise additional confusion will result.

Wasn't the King James Bible translated from a collection of Latin Bibles? Or was it German? Either way, it was not translated from the original Hebrew/Greek. Speaking of Greek, did you know that there is no punctuation in the original text? Kind of explains Paul's tendency for run-on sentences. Anyway, back to the KJV, one version is as good as another if you research the Word thoroughly. I prefer the New Living or Amplified, but I try to exegesis like I was taught in seminary.

The point that I am making is that your statement...

Besides, Israel was to be God's light-bearer to the fallen world. If "Gentiles" now took that role, then God failed His promises.

...doesn't seem to agree with Romans 9:6.

 

[liafailrock]

I may read the book latter on, I just can't right now with all my current commitments. And I'm putting it low on my list because I have all that I need in Christ. What more could I possibly need?

Well for starters, maybe look into what the Bible really says.

Sorry, but 2 Corinthians 1:20 says "...all the promises...". No distinction between physical or otherwise.

I used to believe that, too. No, there is a difference.

Besides, Israel was to be God's light-bearer to the fallen world. If "Gentiles" now took that role, then God failed His promises

...doesn't seem to agree with Romans 9:6.

Actually it does, I explained Romans 9-11 in light of what I'm saying. The children of the promise are counted for the seed. This passage (that you appear to be quoting to say that not all Jews are truly Jews as in receiving promises) is saying that a flesh and blood child is not necessarily the lineage that the promises were meant to go. For example, I could have a daughter and a son. Only the son carries my name. But the children of my daughter are my seed, but not my name.

Most Christians are excessively involved in genealogical studies and family trees and ought to know this. The Jews were not the children of promise (birthright) but the children of the tribe of Joseph received the birthright. Paul was explaining this and extrapolating this spiritually and showing how this related to spiritual things.

This is further demonstrated when Jesus picked 12 disciples and one was a traitor. Judas represented the Jews (of the tribe of Judah) who rejected the Lord. The other 11 represented the 11 tribes of Israel, 10 lost and the tribe of Benjamin accepting the gospel. Notice that is the tribe Paul was from. Then Paul's addition represented the remaining Gentiles accepting the gospel. Only Paul made that bold pronouncement that he was the apostle to the Gentiles (non-Israelites). The other apostles went to the lost sheep of the house of Israel scattered about.

 

[kwag_myers]

I may read the book latter on, I just can't right now with all my current commitments. And I'm putting it low on my list because I have all that I need in Christ. What more could I possibly need?

Well for starters, maybe look into what the Bible really says.

Philippians 4:19

Sorry, but 2 Corinthians 1:20 says "...all the promises...". No distinction between physical or otherwise.

I used to believe that, too. No, there is a difference.

And what does the Bible say that difference is?

Only Paul made that bold pronouncement that he was the apostle to the Gentiles (non-Israelites). The other apostles went to the lost sheep of the house of Israel scattered about.

Paul was commissioned by God in Acts 9:15 for this purpose. But what about Peter? Acts 10.

This whole thing about blood lines, and birthrights also seems to go against Revelation 1:6 and 5:10 where John tells us that Jesus has made us kings and priests. That is to rule over the earth as a king and to minister to God as a priest.

 

[liafailrock]

Paul was commissioned by God in Acts 9:15 for this purpose. But what about Peter? Acts 10.

You forgot about Galatians 2:7 regarding Peter's calling.

This whole thing about blood lines, and birthrights also seems to go against Revelation 1:6 and 5:10 where John tells us that Jesus has made us kings and priests. That is to rule over the earth as a king and to minister to God as a priest.

No, it does not. Actually, the Abrahamic promises foretold descendents as the dust of the Earth AND as stars of heaven. There were provisions for both earthly and spiritual in other words. The fulfillment of a promise spiritually does not mean that all is fulfilled. The earthly was the means in which the spirtual purpose would be carried out. The Bible is replete with genealogies and inheritances.

In addition, God went to great lengths to promise to Abraham things such as a great nation, MANY nations, a specific land of inheritance, a great name, blessings to him, to become a blessing to all the families of the earth, the controlling of the gates of his enemies, etc. And after all that, you use two verses to undo everything God promised as if it was not important. The birthright is not important?

Hebrews 12:16

 

[Johannes]

The Church is the Elect -- God's Chosen People, or Israel. (Same thing.)

 

[Darrell dunn]

No the church has not replaced Israel, We have been adopted into this family, Praise God for that.

Rom11:24 some were cut out of the olive tree, and we were grafted in.

The olive tree was not cut down. v26 And so all Israel will be saved.

The church is a continuation of Gods plan of salvation, which started with Abraham, threw the jews to the gentile church, back to the jews to finish, Rev.7:1-9

___________________

THERE IS ONLY ONE ABSOLUTE TRUTH and all else is a lie!!!!!!

 

[John the Baptist]

The Church IS the Israel of God.
Believing Jews received Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah and followed Him. Christianity sprang from her roots which is Israel. It is an ongoing continuity.

The promises of the OT made to the Jews are being fulfilled in us, ergo, we are the Jews.

********
Hi, you best watch it :roll:!! You will be called some 2 Corinthian 4:2 name for believing that Everlasting Gospel!OH' and the guy lost it? Even the scripture it seems? Whatever. But you are right, that was the plan at least. Then came Revelation 17:1-5, who are these ones??
See Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15.

---John

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Do you believe the Church is the continuation of Israel, or do you see them as separate and distinct groups of people? Why?

Replacement theology is trash and of the enemy. God made covenants with Israel and that is who they will be carried through with. We should feel blessed and dang lucky to have been grafted in and not try and steal the rightful place of God's covenant people.

Those who bless Isreal will be blessed but those who curse her will be cursed.

 

[John the Baptist]

Do you believe the Church is the continuation of Israel, or do you see them as separate and distinct groups of people? Why?

Replacement theology is trash and of the enemy. God made covenants with Israel and that is who they will be carried through with. We should feel blessed and dang lucky to have been grafted in and not try and steal the rightful place of God's covenant people.

Those who bless Isreal will be blessed but those who curse her will be cursed.

***
OK: Lets fight!! :wink:
So what your post is saying is that Psalms 77:13 is for the Jew? And our (?) High Priest Jesus is also for the Jew? For He is the Lamb of the Everlasting Gospel Revelation 14: 6 & that Everlasting Covenant that is inside the Ark of the Heavenly Most Holy Place in heaven itself! Jewish heaven?? Hebrews 13:20

The Temple or True Heavenly Sanctuary of Revelation 11:19. You know, on the other side of that Jewish Vail that went rent from the top to the bottom by an un seen hand, when the JEWISH (?) Master died!

You must believe that satan is Jewish also, because he was one of the two covering cherubs over this 'heavenly' Ark, where the ten commandment Eternal Covenant still is! See Ezekiel 28:14-17. :fadein:

 

[JM]

The question has to be asked, how can a people reject God and remain his chosen people?

If dispensationalism is true, why did Paul lament in Romans 9?

 

[John the Baptist]

The question has to be asked, how can a people reject God and remain his chosen people?

If dispensationalism is true, why did Paul lament in Romans 9?

John here: Romans 9. has 33 verses! What exactly is the question? Over in Exodus 32:30-33 finds that it is possible for one to have his name removed from 'the book'! (kind of like Rev.'s last few verses)
And Moses words show his true Agape re/created love by offering his eternal life for his brethren, if it was possible. And God said that it was not!

And Paul in Romans 9 starts off with this Recreated Love in open view! (quite a change from the carnal old Saul, huh?) Anyway, Paul truly LOVED his kin/folk! (as a whole) kind of makes me, at least, wonder in amazement at the great sorrow of both, the Godhead at the finished loss of Lucifer, & and even Adam and Eve's sorrow at loosing Cain.

I 'personally' believe that Saul was a member of the Sanhedrin trained under Gamaliel. (perhaps that is why some had so much trouble understanding him, huh? :wink To be in membership with that brass, :fadein: he most likely was required to be married. Any way, if so? Mrs. Saul was also left behind with Pauls heavyiness of heart.

OK: with that setting lets see what Rom. 9 has in bottom line? Something like what God meant in Peter's 3 time Vision, that he did not accept as being a contradicting God!!! He knew that God does not change, and that He was the same yesterday, today, and forever!! Have we got that?? If not, re/read Matthew 23:38! Revelation 3:16-17 & Amos 7:7-9 & Amos 5:2-3. And these ones are all a done deal! Hebrews 6:6 :

By the way: Romans 8:35-38 documents that the problem with being lost, is not the Godhead's fault!! (a person, or a whole 'fold' is saved by Covenant)

But Paul was telling the 'Record Books' that 'he could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the [flesh]. Who are [Israelites; to whom [pertaineth the adoption, and the glory of the covenant, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and [[[the promises]]]." (My added highlight for emphasis) PROMISES are the crucial documentation in the Word of God. We are saved only on a Conditional Eternal Covenant. Hebrews 13:20, which is 'THE' Eternal Gospel! Revelation 14:6.

Who are now Israel has already been stated. Romans 9:27-28 goes along with Revelation 12:17's Remnant. Yet, the whole of this fold was cut off as was Israel of old! Again & again & AGAIN, GOD DOES NOT LIE FOLKS!! Read Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 until one BELIEVES what the Master records!

---John

 

[ddubsolo85]

John here:

Romans 9. has 33 verses! What exactly is the question? Over in Exodus 32:30-33 finds that it is possible for one to have his name removed from 'the book'! (kind of like Rev.'s last few verses)
And Moses words show his true Agape re/created love by offering his eternal life for his brethren, if it was possible. And God said that it was not!

I think you have misconstued this verse. If what you say is true, then even Moses would be blotted from the book because even Moses sinned against God.

John:

Who are now Israel has already been stated.

Stated by whom? What scripture??? There has been no change in who Israel is. There isn't, hasn't been, nor ever will be a change in who Israel is. there is nothing in the Bible that says such a thing. So why would you say that?

John:

Romans 9:27-28 goes along with Revelation 12:17's Remnant. Yet, the whole of this fold was cut off as was Israel of old! Again & again & AGAIN, GOD DOES NOT LIE FOLKS!! Read Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 until one BELIEVES what the Master records!

The Master has never recorded the end of Israel, and the Israel of old is the same Israel of today!!! The bible never says anything other than that.

God Bless!

 

[imported_Christian]

Do you believe the Church is the continuation of Israel, or do you see them as separate and distinct groups of people? Why?

Hello Jason,

I'm new to the forum. I scanned through this thread and found it interesting. I have not read it exhaustively so if I say something that has already been covered, I beg your pardon.

I have studied the church at length and I feel that scripture bears out that the church and the body of Christ are the same thing, (Colossians 1:18, Colossians 1:24, Ephesians 1:22-23).

I also think that the church and the Kingdom of God is the same thing. A spiritual Kingdom which Jesus rules from heaven.

Jesus made some comments about the Kingdom that go a long way to verify this.

Jesus proclaimed the arrival of His kingdom to be within the lifetimes of some present at the time.

Luke 9:27
But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Mark 9:1
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

The Bible says the Kingdom of God is here.

1 Thessalonians 2:12
That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

Colossians 1:13
(13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Colossians 4:11
And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Bible says the Kingdom of God is not of this world.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Rom 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.



The Bible says the Kingdom of God cannot be seen and is within us.

Luke 17:20-21
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation :
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


Given all the scripture we have describing the Kingdom, I see where the Kingdom of God and the church are exactly the same thing.

Israelites and Gentiles are both welcome in the kingdom,

1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles , whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Do you agree?

 

[PHIL121]

Replacement Theology is a bbbbaaaaddd thing.

 

[jgarden_47]

Galatians 2 (New International Reader's Version)

My task (Paul) was to preach to the non Jews. Peter's task was to preach to the Jews. 8God was working through Peter as an apostle to the Jews. He was also working through me as an apostle to the non Jews.

Paul Opposes Peter

11When Peter came to Antioch, I told him to his face that I was against what he was doing. He was clearly wrong. 12He used to eat with those who weren't Jews. But certain men came from the group that was led by James. When they arrived, Peter began to draw back. He separated himself from the non Jews. He was afraid of the circumcision group.
13Peter's actions were not honest. The other Jews joined him. Even Barnabas was led down the wrong path.

14I saw what they were doing. It was not in line with the truth of the good news. So I spoke to Peter in front of them all. "You are a Jew," I said. "But you live like one who is not. So why do you force non Jews to follow Jewish ways?"

____________________________________________________
Gentile Christians considered themselves as part of the Christian Church. Many Jewish Christians (Judaizers) considered Gentiles pagans and that they should become Jews (circumcision) before becoming Christians.
This was never more obvious than Paul's confontation with Peter.

 

[John the Baptist]

John here:

Romans 9. has 33 verses! What exactly is the question? Over in Exodus 32:30-33 finds that it is possible for one to have his name removed from 'the book'! (kind of like Rev.'s last few verses)
And Moses words show his true Agape re/created love by offering his eternal life for his brethren, if it was possible. And God said that it was not!

I think you have misconstued this verse. If what you say is true, then even Moses would be blotted from the book because even Moses sinned against God.

---------------
John here:
You do not seem to know the difference between the sin unto death & the sin not unto death. 1 John 5:16-17
___________

John:
[quote:4032a]Who are now Israel has already been stated.

Stated by whom? What scripture??? There has been no change in who Israel is. There isn't, hasn't been, nor ever will be a change in who Israel is. there is nothing in the Bible that says such a thing. So why would you say that?

John:

Romans 9:27-28 goes along with Revelation 12:17's Remnant. Yet, the whole of this fold was cut off as was Israel of old! Again & again & AGAIN, GOD DOES NOT LIE FOLKS!! Read Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 until one BELIEVES what the Master records!

The Master has never recorded the end of Israel, and the Israel of old is the same Israel of today!!! The bible never says anything other than that.

God Bless![/quote:4032a]

------
John here:
Israel? Old Israel was cut off as a nation. They could become New Israel as well as the lost Gentile, only by accepting Christ, and being re/grafted into New Israel. Acts 4:12 And as far as being the nation of Israel of old? Her House became DESOLATE and then destroyed in 70AD! Matthew 23:38. Who took over Christ's rejected place? See Revelation 3:9 & Isaiah 3:5 And verse 7? See Isaiah 5:7 for who the vineyard of the Lord was.
Could it be done.. rejection? Surely! See Revelation 2:5! Not only was it done, but there is a repeat!! Revelation 17:1-5 +++ Revelation 3:16-17. :
------

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I believe that Israel is the chosen people of God and we too are chosen IF we accept his offer of 'adoption'. When we are adopted as sons of God we too become spiritual Israel IN HIM. And since we are also the church - then I believe that the church is the spiritual Israel since we are the Spiritual Israel.

 

[PHIL121]

Keep up to anti-semitism...we'll soon have a new thousand year Reich :roll:

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ John

John here:

You do not seem to know the difference between the sin unto death & the sin not unto death. 1 John 5:16-17

___________
No, I don't. Could you please explain?

John:

Who are now Israel has already been stated.

Stated by whom? What scripture??? There has been no change in who Israel is. There isn't, hasn't been, nor ever will be a change in who Israel is. there is nothing in the Bible that says such a thing. So why would you say that?

John:

Romans 9:27-28 goes along with Revelation 12:17's Remnant.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

A remnant from ISRAEL. Israel are natural, literal descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That would EXCLUDE all Gentiles! This remnant will be made up of the same Israel that was cut off.

Yet, the whole of this fold was cut off as was Israel of old!

Yet, this has nothing to do with anyone that isn't Jewish! If you're not Jewish, if you're not a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, this would have nothing to do with you.

Again & again & AGAIN, GOD DOES NOT LIE FOLKS!! Read Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 until one BELIEVES what the Master records!

The Master has never recorded the end of Israel, and the Israel of old is the same Israel of today!!! The bible never says anything other than that.

Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:

Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Has the sun stopped giving light by day? Has the moon and stars stopped shining at night? Then Israel hasn't ceased from being a nation before God. Has heaven been measured? Have the foundations of the earth been searched beneath? Then the seed of Israel (THOSE BORN OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB), haven't been cast off.

THAT is what the Bible says.

God Bless!