Church = Israel?

[ddubsolo85]

John here:

Israel? Old Israel was cut off as a nation.

Cut off? Kicked out of the house? OK. Cast off? Finished? Done? No way. Stop confusing the two. All Israel who know Christ (THOSE BORN OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB), will be saved. Check Rom. 11.

They could become New Israel as well as the lost Gentile, only by accepting Christ, and being re/grafted into New Israel.

NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that a Gentile is Israel. So why do you? If I'm wrong, please list the scripture. But I know of NO SCRIPTURE that says Gentiles become Israel. Therefore, what you're stating is fabricated opinion. It has nothing to do with the Bible. I don't mean that in a cruel way, but in a matter of fact, true way.

They (Israel) don't have to become Israel, as THEY (Israel) are already Israel!

Acts 4:12 And as far as being the nation of Israel of old? Her House became DESOLATE and then destroyed in 70AD! Matthew 23:38. Who took over Christ's rejected place? See Revelation 3:9

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

OK. The Bible says THOSE BORN OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB are Israel. Would that include you? Yet, you're calling yourself Israel? Do you lie? Are you of the synagogue of Satan? You'd better really reconsider this one.

& Isaiah 3:5 And verse 7?

OK, so Israel is punished. What would that have to do with Gentiles somehow magically becoming Israel? That's not what these verses say.

See Isaiah 5:7 for who the vineyard of the Lord was.

OK, but now I need to see how this means you or me. Where does the Bible say that we are Israel? Again, Israel is THOSE BORN OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB. Is that us? If not, refer to Rev. 3:9.

Could it be done.. rejection? Surely! See Revelation 2:5! Not only was it done, but there is a repeat!!

We can be sure that there will always be a remnant of THOSE BORN OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB, which is Israel. God said He would keep that. Therefore, we KNOW there is no rejection. Remember the sun and the moon.

Revelation 17:1-5 +++ Revelation 3:16-17.

??? What would a prophecy against Babylon have to do with Israel?

God Bless!

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ Merry

Merry:

I believe that Israel is the chosen people of God and we too are chosen IF we accept his offer of 'adoption'.

Agreed.

When we are adopted as sons of God we too become spiritual Israel IN HIM.

What scripture says you become spiritual Israel? WHY would you need to become spiritual Israel? You are no less loved by God being a Gentile. God is no respector of persons, He loves you just as much as He loves Israel. So WHY must you insist on being Israel when the Bible doesn't say that?

And since we are also the church - then I believe that the church is the spiritual Israel since we are the Spiritual Israel.

Where does God say you're spiritual Israel? There are both Jews and Gentiles in the church. If you are in the church, it makes no difference whether you're Jewish or Gentile. You are in Christ, Jew or Gentile. So WHY insist on being Jewish?

I don't understand why Gentiles want to be Jewish. God doesn't love Jews any more than He loves Gentiles. Jews were chosen to serve a function, and Gentiles serve a different function. The final reward, being in Christ forever, is the same. So why not just be what God made you, and accept His love as He gives it? Is it not enough? A lifetime with the Creator isn't enough? I just don't understand.

God Bless!

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ PHIL121

PHIL121:

Keep up to anti-semitism...we'll soon have a new thousand year Reich

How true, and how sad.

God Bless!

 

[Merry Menagerie]

@ Merry

Merry:

I believe that Israel is the chosen people of God and we too are chosen IF we accept his offer of 'adoption'.

Agreed.

[quote:e0a79]When we are adopted as sons of God we too become spiritual Israel IN HIM.

What scripture says you become spiritual Israel? WHY would you need to become spiritual Israel? You are no less loved by God being a Gentile. God is no respector of persons, He loves you just as much as He loves Israel. So WHY must you insist on being Israel when the Bible doesn't say that?

And since we are also the church - then I believe that the church is the spiritual Israel since we are the Spiritual Israel.

Where does God say you're spiritual Israel? There are both Jews and Gentiles in the church. If you are in the church, it makes no difference whether you're Jewish or Gentile. You are in Christ, Jew or Gentile. So WHY insist on being Jewish?

I don't understand why Gentiles want to be Jewish. God doesn't love Jews any more than He loves Gentiles. Jews were chosen to serve a function, and Gentiles serve a different function. The final reward, being in Christ forever, is the same. So why not just be what God made you, and accept His love as He gives it? Is it not enough? A lifetime with the Creator isn't enough? I just don't understand.

God Bless![/quote:e0a79]

Actually you do have a point, however, isn't Christ a decendant from the tribe of Judah? And if so then if we are IN HIM then aren't we then classed as Israel also? (spiritually speaking).

 

[John the Baptist]

@ John

John here:

You do not seem to know the difference between the sin unto death & the sin not unto death. 1 John 5:16-17

___________
No, I don't. Could you please explain?

James 1:15 see's a starting point & when sin is mature, or finished it is fatal.
Check Psalms 19:13 'keep back thy servant, also from presumptous sins, let them not have dominion over me, then I shall be innocent from the great transgression' (you look it up)

John:
[quote:759a3]Who are now Israel has already been stated.

Stated by whom? What scripture??? There has been no change in who Israel is. There isn't, hasn't been, nor ever will be a change in who Israel is. there is nothing in the Bible that says such a thing. So why would you say that?

John:

Romans 9:27-28 goes along with Revelation 12:17's Remnant.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

A remnant from ISRAEL. Israel are natural, literal descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That would EXCLUDE all Gentiles! This remnant will be made up of the same Israel that was cut off.

This is true! There has always been an remnant. The new church started out with the Jewish Remnant! See Matthew 23:38 & Matthew 10:5-6 & Revelation 12:17's EXACT REPEAT! (but, who stayed put & who left whom??? See Matthew 25:1 & verse *6 a remnant, remember!)

Yet, the whole of this fold was cut off as was Israel of old!

Yet, this has nothing to do with anyone that isn't Jewish! If you're not Jewish, if you're not a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, this would have nothing to do with you.

Again & again & AGAIN, GOD DOES NOT LIE FOLKS!! Read Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 until one BELIEVES what the Master records!

The Master has never recorded the end of Israel, and the Israel of old is the same Israel of today!!! The bible never says anything other than that.

Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:

Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Has the sun stopped giving light by day? Has the moon and stars stopped shining at night? Then Israel hasn't ceased from being a nation before God. Has heaven been measured? Have the foundations of the earth been searched beneath? Then the seed of Israel (THOSE BORN OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB), haven't been cast off.

THAT is what the Bible says.

God Bless![/quote:759a3]

Do we dis/agree? ---John

 

[TheScarletPimpernel]

I noted the comments earlier on "Replacement Theology". I put to you a replacement replacement theology.

When Lucifer fell he took 1/3 of the heavenly host. Known to us today as satan and his host of demons. Man was created by God to replace them.

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ Merry

Sorry for the slow reply, I didn't see your response.

Merry:

Actually you do have a point, however, isn't Christ a decendant from the tribe of Judah?

Yes.

And if so then if we are IN HIM then aren't we then classed as Israel also? (spiritually speaking).

No, I don't think so. There's nothing that would indicate we become Israel (spiritual or otherwise). The seed is Christ, not Israel. There are no scriptures that call Gentiles Israel, and therefore there is no reason for us to do so. It's just not scriptural.

God Bless!

 

[PHIL121]

I noted the comments earlier on "Replacement Theology". I put to you a replacement replacement theology.

When Lucifer fell he took 1/3 of the heavenly host. Known to us today as satan and his host of demons. Man was created by God to replace them.

WOW! and how did you come to that conclusion?

 

[John the Baptist]

Quote:
And if so then if we are IN HIM then aren't we then classed as Israel also? (spiritually speaking).

No, I don't think so. There's nothing that would indicate we become Israel (spiritual or otherwise). The seed is Christ, not Israel. There are no scriptures that call Gentiles Israel, and therefore there is no reason for us to do so. It's just not scriptural.

God Bless!

******
Best read what the Godhead said: Romans 2:28-29 (K.J.) & satan & the fallen angels? Again, 'Inspiration' of the Godhead makes an Eternal statement! Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 plus Ecclesiastes 3:15. Compare Matthew 25:1, Matthew 25:6 finds the end of this process which only happened twice on earth. The First Advent & the Second Advent.

--John

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ J the B

John:

Best read what the Godhead said: Romans 2:28-29

Why? Those verses are speaking about Jews EXCLUSIVELY. Gentiles had nothing to do with physical circumcision, and therefore have nothing to do with the statements made in Rom 2:28-29. Just read those verses in context and you'll clearly see.

(K.J.) & satan & the fallen angels?

You need to be more specific. I don't know what point you're trying to make.

Again, 'Inspiration' of the Godhead makes an Eternal statement! Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 plus Ecclesiastes 3:15. Compare Matthew 25:1, Matthew 25:6 finds the end of this process which only happened twice on earth. The First Advent & the Second Advent.

Care to be more specific? I don't want to assume I know what you're getting at with these verses.

God Bless!

 

[Merry Menagerie]

@ Merry

Sorry for the slow reply, I didn't see your response.

Merry:

Actually you do have a point, however, isn't Christ a decendant from the tribe of Judah?

Yes.

[quote:411b6]And if so then if we are IN HIM then aren't we then classed as Israel also? (spiritually speaking).

No, I don't think so. There's nothing that would indicate we become Israel (spiritual or otherwise). The seed is Christ, not Israel. There are no scriptures that call Gentiles Israel, and therefore there is no reason for us to do so. It's just not scriptural.

God Bless![/quote:411b6]

thank you for getting back to me

Well I would think it would be logical - wouldn't you say? I mean if Christ is Israel and we are in Christ then wouldn't we be classed as israel too? After all, we were circumcised by the Holy Spirit weren't we?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Here we go...

Galatians 3 v 29

And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[John the Baptist]

Replacement theology is responsible for the brainwashing of many "christians" who are turning against Israel these days.
I always wondered how that could happen, all it took was a very crafty deceptive manmade doctrine.

________

John here: Well then, perhaps 'Christians' best look at it again & ask what Christ is telling them in Revelation 17:5 huh?

And who does the 'brain washing' (?) in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15?

You say: Crafty deceptive manmade doctrine?? :

INSPIRATION SAYS:
"The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us." Eccl. 1:9-10

"That which hath been is now, and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past." Eccl. 3:15

Rather than tell God that He has a crafty manmade doctrine, why not believe Him & put it to the test?? There are so rare instances in history that do not repeat that He tell's us of them, rather than the other way around! Try Nahum 1:9 for one. And the 'rainbow in the sky for another'. (just a few more)

Start at creation? What was before Adam being created? Adam was a type of 'creator'. (pro/creator) His first son rebelled, so what happened in heavens rebellion, & who was the Godhead's first created one? satan lived on, Cain also was permitted to live on.

Matthew 25:1 tells of %50 wise & %50 foolish, yet, these are compared to where? (Heaven's Virgins) Rev. 12 tell's of 1/3 being cast out from heaven. Does one not think that the EVERLASTING GOSPEL could not save from the 1/3 difference of %50? (in the Eternal Plan by FAITH!)

Does one need to know all of this to be saved? No, but if one believed ALL the Word of God, they could surely find the flaw's more quickly by the lost one's of Revelation 17:5 and what makes her the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH. (the compilers capes)

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ Merry

Well I would think it would be logical - wouldn't you say? I mean if Christ is Israel and we are in Christ then wouldn't we be classed as israel too? After all, we were circumcised by the Holy Spirit weren't we?

If Christ is Israel? I think you may be beginning on a false premise. Christ is not Israel. And even if He were, that wouldn't make us Him.

God Bless!

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ Merry

Here we go...

Galatians 3 v 29

And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Abraham's seed? Yes. But Israel is born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Being born of Abraham doesn't make one Israel.

God Bless!

 

[Merry Menagerie]

So if the seed of Abraham isn't Israel - then who is he?

 

[John the Baptist]

So if the seed of Abraham isn't Israel - then who is he?

****
You have it right! These ones are just a distraction. (Hosea 4:6)

Christ stated it plain in Matthew 23:38, your house is left unto you DESOLATE! See Isaiah 5:3 & verse 7 for who the Vineyard of the Lord is, the house of Israel. CHOOSE BETWIXT ME AND MY VINEYARD, I PRAY YOU.

It takes BOTH CHRIST and HIS VINEYARD TO BE IN CHRIST! See what Saul 'MUST DO' in Acts 9:6! Either of the two alone 'will be replaced' by whom?? Many 'loose cannon's' are even running around with a 1/2 Everlasting Gospel of Christ, of only Christ they say!! (they say)

Who replaced Christ in Matthew 23:38? Also compare Revelation 2:5's 'replacement'! (of both Old Israel & Laodicea's candlestick as seen in in Revelation 3:16-17's SPEWED OUT. And who took over apostate Israel of Revelation 3:9 now? And who was now new Israel in Revelation 3:7 & verse 10. (Revelation 3:10) Not much guesswork seen there, is there!

And this time around it is not old Israel! See Revelation 12:17's REPLACEMENT!! Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. Also see Matthew 10:23 for how the few will finish God's work! Think on that for awhile. Acts 2's new 'replacement' on worldwide satalite. Matthew 24:14 comes to and end rather quickly, huh?

---John

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ Merry

Merry:

So if the seed of Abraham isn't Israel - then who is he?

Think about it for a second. If Christ were Israel, then only Israel would be saved. So who is He? Who is the seed of Abraham?

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

What you have to grasp is the fact that Christ is Savior to all, both Jew and Gentile. Being from Abraham DOES NOT make one Jewish. Abraham is the father of many nations, including Gentiles. The promise was made to Abraham that through him all nations would be blessed. That would be the promise of salvation to GENTILES from the OT. Gentiles don't have to be Jews to be in Christ. Read Gal 3 with that in mind.

God Bless!

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ John the Baptist

Merry Menagerie wrote:

So if the seed of Abraham isn't Israel - then who is he?

****
John:

You have it right! These ones are just a distraction. (Hosea 4:6)

You mention Hosea 4, but you neglect to mention Hosea 14. Is it because you haven't read it, or are you being deceptive?

John:

Christ stated it plain in Matthew 23:38, your house is left unto you DESOLATE! See Isaiah 5:3 & verse 7 for who the Vineyard of the Lord is, the house of Israel. CHOOSE BETWIXT ME AND MY VINEYARD, I PRAY YOU.

Newsflash: Gentiles ARE NOT the house of Israel!!! Those born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are the house of Israel. YOU are excluded! You don't have one scripture that says you're the house of Israel. You ASSUME you're Israel by taking one scripture like Hosea 4:6, not reconciling it with the entire book, and then pretending that the Bible is saying that you're Israel. It's not there! It's just not in scripture. And then you mention Mat 23:38, but don't even speak about the next verse where Jesus says they will reunite. Amazing!

John:

It takes BOTH CHRIST and HIS VINEYARD TO BE IN CHRIST! See what Saul 'MUST DO' in Acts 9:6! Either of the two alone 'will be replaced' by whom?? Many 'loose cannon's' are even running around with a 1/2 Everlasting Gospel of Christ, of only Christ they say!! (they say)

What in the world are you talking about? What do you see in Acts 9:6 that supports your position? Could you say it plainly? I'm not following you at all.

John:

Who replaced Christ in Matthew 23:38?

Who replaced Christ?...??? I don't know. WHO? and what scripture says so?

John:

Also compare Revelation 2:5's 'replacement'! (of both Old Israel & Laodicea's candlestick as seen in in Revelation 3:16-17's SPEWED OUT. And who took over apostate Israel of Revelation 3:9 now? And who was now new Israel in Revelation 3:7 & verse 10. (Revelation 3:10) Not much guesswork seen there, is there!

Rather than speaking in code, why don't you just plainly state what you think these verses are saying? That would be helpful.

John:

And this time around it is not old Israel! See Revelation 12:17's REPLACEMENT!!

Replacement? Israel ESCAPES! The "replacement" begins receiving the punishment Israel was getting! (Oh boy!).

John:

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. Also see Matthew 10:23 for how the few will finish God's work! Think on that for awhile. Acts 2's new 'replacement' on worldwide satalite. Matthew 24:14 comes to and end rather quickly, huh?

Why don't you just explain how you see these scriptures? Why don't you take a page out of Merry's book, and clearly explain how you see them working together? That would be helpful.

God Bless!

 

[Merry Menagerie]

@ Merry

Merry:

So if the seed of Abraham isn't Israel - then who is he?

Think about it for a second. If Christ were Israel, then only Israel would be saved. So who is He? Who is the seed of Abraham?

Christ is the seed of Abraham and yes only Israel will be saved. We are engrafted onto the vine who is Christ through adoption. We are now joint heirs with Christ who is Israel - thus making us spiritual Israel through adoption and yes ONLY ISRAEL will be saved because Israel is in Christ.

What you have to grasp is the fact that Christ is Savior to all, both Jew and Gentile. Being from Abraham DOES NOT make one Jewish. Abraham is the father of many nations, including Gentiles. The promise was made to Abraham that through him all nations would be blessed. That would be the promise of salvation to GENTILES from the OT. Gentiles don't have to be Jews to be in Christ. Read Gal 3 with that in mind.

Yes but in the physical sense this is true. But we are not talking physical now we are talking spiritual. We are all in Christ and Christ is the seed of Abraham and only in Christ are we made Israel.