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Church Or Jail, Conversion through Duress.

Rhea said:
But I would, because silly is better than locked up.
Great! Nothing wrong with that!

Rhea said:
Things that change our behavior are very much a part of us. My comments are that the behavioral therapy has a better track record than forced church attendance. I am very happy for you - truly - to be living and enjoying the life you now have rather than the path you were on. Perhaps you would have found Jesus even with therapy.

But the studies I posted showed pretty clearly that you can cut a return to crime by 1/2 with interventions.

Glad they've got a program that works! Did I ever tell you that I had a brother who died a few months ago because of drugs? Yeah, he was a dealer... Hell on earth if you ask me. My other brother was in a transitional house because he robbed a bank and did I dunno, 15-18 years in prison? I'm just glad he was able to get out for the funeral. My other brother did 5 years. He's a con. He doesn't actually do the crimes anymore, he finds lonely women to do it for him. I've also got a sister who can't seem to get away from the drug scene either, and I can't tell you how many rehab's she's been to. Thank goodness I have two other brothers that are doing ok, even though one did a considerable amount of time in Jail, all things considereed.

So let me think about this for a minute. Four brothers and we've all did time. We all did the classes and the therapy and the this and the that... God I'm glad I avoided the stuff they went through. We all went through the same programs... so what was different? It was God.

If we tally up the financial cost for all the programs it cost both the federal and state governments, it has to be huge with my family alone. Way I see it, I saved the tax payers a lot of money all because of a free program that was offered. It was, "Stay in your room, or go to church.."

Worked for me... I think it should remain available for others. It may not work for everyone, but no program does so why limit what's available?

Rhea said:
See the thing is, this judge has done nothing to make sure the kids actually *DO* anything in the church she is sending them to. That's nuts, IMHO.

IMHO... that's the key.

Ran out of time.. gotta go. But in summary, I think all programs should be on the table.... even going to church.
 
Well, Military Service makes you actually *DO* something, not just attend, for one thing



So, no, you can't choose your own church.




Now this is confusing because in the thread about using church attendance as a predictor of religious devotion, quite a few people were proclaiming that there are a lot of "I'll never recognize you in heaven" Christians-in-quotes filling up the pews, and that didn't count as "religious" even though they were voluntarily going to church four times a month!


So it seems as though this judge is willing to make a token exploitation of the church and the legal system and doesn't really care that anything gets done.

Wouldn't it be better (much better) to go to a life-coach or behavior class every week, where you actually have to participate in some way? Rather than say, "go sit in that pew for an hour".


often the forced persons in service didnt stop with their crimes they just went to another baby sitter. the army wiil not take any one with a conviction of felony. or third degree misdeameanor
 
In the congregation I attend we have a strong group of men and women who teach the gospel of Christ in both the local state prison and the local jail. Many have been baptized as a result, FIVE only last week. In the case of the local jail the officers bring them to our building cuffed hand and foot and they are baptized. While probablly true most do not remain faithful thats none of our business as that is between God and the prisoner. It is God who gives the increase ( I Cor.3:6-9 ) so we do our part and God does His.
 
In the congregation I attend we have a strong group of men and women who teach the gospel of Christ in both the local state prison and the local jail. Many have been baptized as a result, FIVE only last week. In the case of the local jail the officers bring them to our building cuffed hand and foot and they are baptized. While probablly true most do not remain faithful thats none of our business as that is between God and the prisoner. It is God who gives the increase ( I Cor.3:6-9 ) so we do our part and God does His.
my church has a jail ministry, we reach the teenage offenders that are in for life or few a few years.
 
I'm very sorry about your brother, Jeff, and the anguish with your other sibs as well.

Looking in, I can see how you may feel that way. From within, that's what was considered "normal".

It's amazing how perspectives change over the years, but looking back I can clearly see the few people who really made a difference in my life and changed the course of my life. People who cared, and people who took the time to invest in me. Out of all the "programs" I went through and even the therapy and counseling, it was those people who honestly showed concern for me, didn't condemn me, and had patience with me... They were the ones who accepted me with all my faults, all my anger and all my grief. The ones I'm talking about, are the Christians that took the time to build a relationship with me.

I'm not saying that the secular programs don't help, but in and of themselves they are void of relationships and the ones who teach said programs are punching the clock and generally don't think to highly of you... Your a bad person, you've done bad things, you were raised bad, you've got all these issues.... But it's not your fault, it's the way you were raised and you'll have to deal with these issues all your life. Here is a bag of tools that can help you cope with your issues, and if it gets too heavy, here, take these pills, they'll dumb you down and when you blow the programs they tell you, "yeah, your headed to prison and that your worthless to society.

When I was baptized into Christ, the first thing I was told was that every sin I had committed was forgiven, and that I was a new creature in Christ. The old was gone, and I was made new. I was told that I meant something to somebody (God) and it was backed up by those who genuinely cared for me. I was built up, not put down and instead of a bag of tools to cope, I've been transformed.

I don't get why you atheists despise and ridicule Christianity so much and oppose it around every corner. I get that sometimes Christianity isn't exactly the model of Jesus, but by far Christians as a whole make the world a much better place to live. I think that maybe that the part of Christianity that you see, may just be the side you want to see. Meanwhile, there are many good folks out there changing lives silently, making a difference and not getting caught up in the arguments...
 
The ones I'm talking about, are the Christians that took the time to build a relationship with me.

I'm glad they were there for you.
I'm not saying that the secular programs don't help, but in and of themselves they are void of relationships and the ones who teach said programs are punching the clock and generally don't think to highly of you...

I don't get why you atheists despise and ridicule Christianity so much and oppose it around every corner.

[...]

I think that maybe that the part of Christianity that you see, may just be the side you want to see. Meanwhile, there are many good folks out there changing lives silently, making a difference and not getting caught up in the arguments...
I was about to say, "I hope you know there are millions of VERY caring social workers" but I realize from your comment that you don't know these. Still they exist in huge numbers and I wish that type had also been around for you.

Perhaps just as uncaring social workers are what you experienced, perhaps you can picture that uncaring christians are also someone else's experience?

And I'm not meaning that as "I'm mad at Christians" I'm meaning it in exactly the same way you saw the social workers - it wasn't working the way they said it would.

I realize you said, "you atheists", but I hope - and assume - that you do not actually think all atheists are the same, any more than you would want me to think all Christians are the same as the worst of the lot. Nor do we oppose it at every corner.

I assure you, I do not think all Christians are as bad as the worst of the lot (hence my posting of a thread about the Christian Left based on my interaction with very dear and very devout christian friends - it's closed because they feared I would be "preaching" this (me?) but you can at least see that I am clear about not painting with a broad brush.)
 
If I were hypothetically in the situation where this option was placed before me of course I would opt for church.

Jail is a death sentance for a transsexual. abrupt distruption of my medicine regime is extremely painful and distressing. I would be put in a mens jail and either killed or placed in protective isolation whitch is basically solitary confinement for the entireity of my sentence. It's very difficult for someone like me to get employed as is but it would be impossible if I had a criminal record.

Yet given my history with christians and their churches how would you expect a person like me to take begin forced to beg for my freedom at a church.

How would you feel about it jason?
 
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Rhea,

When was the last time a social worker invited you to their house for dinner? How about a concert, or just called you in the middle of the day to see how you're doing?

Chris Crutcher, look him up, he's got a web site. I know him well, very well. Well enough to call him friend and he knows more about parts of me than anyone else alive... He's done a lot for me, and I'm very thankful. Chris is a person that I believe honestly cares about other people, and he does his part in helping others where he can, the best he can. But he's never invited me to his house for dinner, and he's never wanted to ride bikes, play hoop or sit at the beach with me...

But you don't generally find that when your getting pushed through a system and your just the next batch of loosers mandated by the court to take a class you don't want to take by an instructor that just wants to make it till 5pm so he can go home from his J O B.

And yes, I did recognize that you're not a "typical" athiest. Actually, on more than one occation I've seen some very "Christian" like responses from you... even when other "Christians" were opposing you.
 
Pebbles,

I know that you were talking to Jason, and I hope you don't mind me saying, but I hope you don't paint all us Christians with the same brush.

I have known one transsexual at work. He/She was a very nice person, even offered me an apple out of the blue one day when I was starving! I don't' know where this person went, but I suppose he/she found a better job?

We currently have another transsexual, except this one doesn't have the feminine features that the other one did and it is very apparent that she, is a he, and I think that adds stress to his / her life unlike the other transsexual who's transformation was more woman like, and I think it really comes out in their attitudes toward others.

The first always had a smile and was outgoing, while the other rarely smiles and keeps to him/her self. Almost like he / her has a chip on his / her shoulder.

I actually kind of feel sorry for him / her, and as a Christian, if ever asked, I would never say that God didn't love him / her.

I can only imagine what you go through emotionally. :pray
 
Rhea,

When was the last time a social worker invited you to their house for dinner? How about a concert, or just called you in the middle of the day to see how you're doing?


Weeeelllll, two of our carpool moms are social workers. Several good friends are in front-line social work. So pretty much regularly. :) And because of my employment I interact with more and occasionally need to get involved personally.

But you don't generally find that when your getting pushed through a system and your just the next batch of loosers mandated by the court to take a class you don't want to take by an instructor that just wants to make it till 5pm so he can go home from his J O B.

I wish we could have better service here. There is such a mish-mash of support and disdain for the programs in general. It must be very difficult to keep morale up.

And yes, I did recognize that you're not a "typical" athiest. Actually, on more than one occation I've seen some very "Christian" like responses from you... even when other "Christians" were opposing you.


Thank you. Although - I kinda do think I'm pretty typical. Most of my atheist friends are pretty social and active. And when we get together community service projects for the kids, there is great enthusiasm - though the group is never limited to atheism, it's just a group of friends doing things, and many of them happen to be atheist.

I was entertained to find at the church where my daughter attends that quite a few of the other families in the pews were also atheist, we're just there for the community service opportunities. And I suppose, given the reception my "Christian Left" thread got, probably ALL of the people in that church would be considered "non-Christian" here.

You might find that many of the people you thought were good christians are actually good atheists. :)

Anyway, I do understand the enormous value you got from Christianity, and while my experience is that it is not the only source, I understand your perspective. But that's why I would think this program from the OP should have a wide range of choices AND the church part should not be just attendance.
 
I can't imagine the world being "better off" without Christians. Even if you don't believe in Christianity, imagine a world without it. A world without the idea that all people have inherent worth and dignity. A world without many charities, soup kitchens, orphanages, and non-profit hospitals. A world without the concept of monogamous, life-long marriage. A world without hope.
 
I can't imagine the world being "better off" without Christians. Even if you don't believe in Christianity, imagine a world without it. A world without the idea that all people have inherent worth and dignity. A world without many charities, soup kitchens, orphanages, and non-profit hospitals. A world without the concept of monogamous, life-long marriage. A world without hope.

Eh? You think Christianity is not only the only source of these but also has nothing negative to it at all?

In addition, not all Christians agree with what you wrote. For example quite a few feel that far from inherent worth and dignity, we are inherently fallen and wicked.
 
For example, this article on Indiana Charities alone shows:
This final report focuses on the 55 percent of Indiana nonprofits that are congregations, other-faith based organizations or secular charities and examines the ways in which these types of nonprofits differ in how they respond to community needs. Of the nonprofits examined in the report, 42 percent are secular charities, 39 percent are congregations and 19 percent are other faith-based organizations.

Indian is not known as a hive of secularism.

Here is a large, although certainly not complete list of secular charities

Looking at the Charity Navigator you can see in the Top 10 is only one religious organization - a Jewish one.


and, regarding hospitals,
Robert Ingersoll's response to the question, "What hospitals have atheists built?" is surprisingly relevant over a hundred years later. Despite European Christians being on the American continent for hundreds of years, they have been lacking in providing the medical charity they are credited for. The answer to the question "How many American hospitals have atheists built?" is "All of them."

Of the 13% of religious hospitals, all of them are maintained by public funds. Those public funds are not paid for exclusively by the religious, and they certainly aren't supported by American churches. If the religious hospitals were to be truly religious and separated from secular governmental subsidies, they would collapse. The question that the Christian apologist should be asked is, "Where are all the truly religious hospitals?" Slapping a Catholic or Methodist label upon a hospital wall isn't sufficient enough to create a truly independent, private, religious hospital free from atheist support.


PLEASE NOTE!

All of this is NOT to say, "we're better than you!" It is instead to address the accusation that without Christianity, there would be no charity or good public works. Such a claim dismisses thousands of years of non-christian good works and millions, nay, tens of millions, of hours of non-christian charity. It is wrong for you to dismiss the efforts and charity of so many millions of people with a shrug and a "without us christians, the world would go to hell". Because it is clearly not true of us atheists.
 
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Weeeelllll, two of our carpool moms are social workers. Several good friends are in front-line social work. So pretty much regularly. :) And because of my employment I interact with more and occasionally need to get involved personally.

Sounds like your on the other side of the coin here Rhea. My experience with most social workers is about "managing" their folder of you.


I wish we could have better service here. There is such a mish-mash of support and disdain for the programs in general. It must be very difficult to keep morale up.

I agree. My step mother has her Masters and is pretty high up there in management in the social worker world, and as such, she is addressing those very same issue. Unfortunately, most social workers are simply over worked and they don't have the time to build a relationship with each individual. Another thing I've noticed, not all, but some social workers get into the business to help fix something broken in their life. These social workers usually come with a bias and presuppositions that automatically condemn certain people. But that's just a side note... when you do that kind of work for a living, often you end up teaching somethign you don't want to teach to somebody you don't want to teach it to. It's business, and you can't fix that because it's just the nature of the beast.


Thank you. Although - I kinda do think I'm pretty typical. Most of my atheist friends are pretty social and active. And when we get together community service projects for the kids, there is great enthusiasm - though the group is never limited to atheism, it's just a group of friends doing things, and many of them happen to be atheist.

That doesn't surprise me. Like minded people often get together on a regular basis.

I was entertained to find at the church where my daughter attends that quite a few of the other families in the pews were also atheist, we're just there for the community service opportunities. And I suppose, given the reception my "Christian Left" thread got, probably ALL of the people in that church would be considered "non-Christian" here.

You might find that many of the people you thought were good christians are actually good atheists. :)

Anyway, I do understand the enormous value you got from Christianity, and while my experience is that it is not the only source, I understand your perspective. But that's why I would think this program from the OP should have a wide range of choices AND the church part should not be just attendance.

I didn't get a chance to read your Christian Left thread... Sorry.

The thing about this OP, is I came into it with the notion that the other social programs were already in place and that church, was just another option for those the judge deemed worthy to be presented the option.

As far as athiest going to church, honestly.. and can I be honest here? I think that people in general have the potential to be good people and do the right things many many times over, both Christian, and Athiest. But the thing about being a Christian, is that we know where we are going when we die. That may not be important to some people while other people believe different things about what happens when they die. But what really matters, and I'll quote Jesus, but what matters is this, "Go, and be that neighbor".

Because I think there is something about 'being that neighbor' that connects us as a community... it puts us outside of ourselves, and we get a good honest glimps of the world around us. Aside from knowing where I'm going when I die, the Bible helps me and guides me to live a life worth experiencing through "being that neighbor', or through the neighbors who come to assist me when I really need it. I don't need religion, but I need a neighbor.

So, go out there and be that neighbor. In a grander view, I'll give praise to God and continue to see God's work all around me, and well, I'm not sure what you do, but I'm sure God is blessing you all the same.
 
"in general about mandating faith and what duress can be employed to encourage it."

"Duress" does tend to get one's "Attention", and it appears that nobody is "FORCING" a conversion - only putting 'em in an environment where one is more likely to occur.

In the States, the courts have often sent folks to programs like "Teen Life Challenge" to get 'em clean, and saved. Sending them to an Islamic, or Jewish facility would be a waste of time, since there's NO "salvation" outside of Jesus. Outside of Christianity there's only "Peer Pressure", and "Psychology".

I was under "Duress" of a different type (Suicidal) when I was saved. it took a LOT to get my attention.
 
It's obvious in my case jason why I despise christianity. I honestly do think the world would be better without it but well that's just me.

If I were hypothetically in the situation where this option was placed before me of course I would opt for church.

Jail is a death sentance for a transsexual. abrupt distruption of my medicine regime is extremely painful and distressing. I would be put in a mens jail and either killed or placed in protective isolation whitch is basically solitary confinement for the entireity of my sentence. It's very difficult for someone like me to get employed as is but it would be impossible if I had a criminal record.

Yet given my history with christians and their churches how would you expect a person like me to take begin forced to beg for my freedom at a church.

How would you feel about it jason?


i understand your position but let me turn that around. its not uncommon to see the smaller guys in the prison be raped by force and place in confinement for their protection. its not that common in jails as they dont stay long. jail time vs prison time are two different things. a year or less vs years.
 
:bigfrown Lord i cant heal pebbles nor can i change her. i ask that you work in this matter. i am unable nor wise enough to say the words that can do these things. heal her hurts. in your name amen
 
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