Church Transformation, Purpose / Mission Driven Church

[Strangelove]

That sounds heaps good. I think we have a similar kind of course at our church, which I am attending in January. It's a ministry conference, which covers many aspects of theology and equips people for Christian ministry-type things, such as childrens ministry, work ministry etc. It's a great way to grow, serve and learn how to lead.

Nick, if you were a leader you would know about it by now. It's not something that someone can teach you.

A leader is someone who can step into a group of people and command their respect just because of how they are. How their nature is.

You cannot be trained to be a leader. It's a talent.

What these courses want to teach you is how to become a change agent. It's group management training. how to manage and turn a conversation. nothing to do with true leadership.

 

[Nick]

To “equip†a “servant leader†is to train him in “leadership training.â€

In church growth organizations, leadership training means change agent training. Men are “transformed†into change agents through the process called “leadership training.†“Leadership development†refers to the process of learning the skills of a group change agent. Leadership development is change agent training which takes place in small groups. ​

And your problem is?........

We need leaders in our churches and beyond. They need to have some kind of training.

 

[Alabaster]

Nick, if you were a leader you would know about it by now. It's not something that someone can teach you.

Sure it is. As Christians we are called salt and light and we need to learn how to lead. That is what discipling is all about.

A leader is someone who can step into a group of people and command their respect just because of how they are. How their nature is.

You cannot be trained to be a leader. It's a talent.

We are all leaders with or without a certain talent for it.

What these courses want to teach you is how to become a change agent. It's group management training. how to manage and turn a conversation. nothing to do with true leadership.

That's simply garbage born out of your own cynicism.

 

[Strangelove]

And your problem is?........

We need leaders in our churches and beyond. They need to have some kind of training.

So is there something wrong with talking about the Gospel that you wanna fix?

Do you need to become a change agent? To change your church from talking about the Gospel to talking about...what?

Leaders emerge themselves they dont need any help. Thats what pastors should be. Natural leaders in Christ who are servants to the flock. Leading by example of what they have learnt by the Word of God and through their natural chiefmanship talent which is God given.

Not from what some dude taught them in a business management 'leadership' class.

 

[Alabaster]

So is there something wrong with talking about the Gospel that you wanna fix?

Do you need to become a change agent? To change your church from talking about the Gospel to talking about...what?

Leaders emerge themselves they dont need any help. Thats what pastors should be. Natural leaders in Christ who are servants to the flock. Leading by example of what they have learnt by the Word of God and through their natural chiefmanship talent which is God given.

Not from what some dude taught them in a business management 'leadership' class.

Haha!

We need leaders to teach the meat of the word, and not simply the basic Gospel. We all need training to become what God is calling us to be.

No man is an island and the Church doesn't progress with a bunch of Lone Rangers going at it on their own understanding.

 

[Nick]

Nick, if you were a leader you would know about it by now. It's not something that someone can teach you.

A leader is someone who can step into a group of people and command their respect just because of how they are. How their nature is.

You cannot be trained to be a leader. It's a talent.

I feel called to lead in children's ministry. Doesn't mean I know exactly how to do it - how to best minister and handle little kids. Come on, Strangelove. I'd like to see you step into a Sudnay school without any training and do a better job than someone who has had training. Doing training with other people can help you learn from each other, and share tips etc. Yes, certain people have a gift of leading, or are called to lead, but that doesn't mean their skills or talent is fully developed. They need to learn how to best lead.

So I guess you don't believe ministers should go to Bible college? Becasue they should already have all the knowledge of the Bible and how to minister to people, since they are called to it, right?

So all those people who to go this ministry conference and come out of it much better leaders....what do you say to them? What will you say to me next January?

What these courses want to teach you is how to become a change agent. It's group management training. how to manage and turn a conversation. nothing to do with true leadership.

It's training to become a better leader and to learn about ministry and theology.

 

[Nick]

Haha!

We need leaders to teach the meat of the word, and not simply the basic Gospel. We all need training to become what God is calling us to be.

No man is an island and the Church doesn't progress with a bunch of Lone Rangers going at it on their own understanding.

I'm 10000000% backing you on this.

Strangelove, not all churches (in fact most) do not teach this business management stuff you're talking about. Mine doesn't, and Alabaster's doesn't.

Of course, belonging to a church does help one to understand what happens inside them, and whether it's Biblical or not.

 

[Strangelove]

Sure it is. As Christians we are called salt and light and we need to learn how to lead. That is what discipling is all about.

If you were really salt and light you wouldn't need a man to teach you anything. Living a godly life and being a good example is what the bible teaches. It's not the same leadership that these courses are teaching.

God teaches a man how to lead by the Holy Spirit. He chooses certain men. If you want to believe you can learn to lead and then to lead others by those learnt skills then you fool yourself:

15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father
hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind
lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.​

Can you show 'leadership training' in the bible?

We are all leaders with or without a certain talent for it.

If you are a natural leader. You've been blessed by God. You can lead yourself into God's doctrines. If not then you need to be lead by God. Or if you have fully tested the spirit of a godly teacher you can trust his natural leadership.

If everyone is a leader, which I think is non-sensical, why would you need leadership training?

That's simply garbage born out of your own cynicism.

Productive comment.

 

[Strangelove]

Haha!

We need leaders to teach the meat of the word, and not simply the basic Gospel. We all need training to become what God is calling us to be.

No man is an island and the Church doesn't progress with a bunch of Lone Rangers going at it on their own understanding.

This is a philosophy of ISLAM not of Christianity.

Christians need only the Word of God for their meat.

 

[Strangelove]

I feel called to lead in children's ministry. Doesn't mean I know exactly how to do it - how to best minister and handle little kids. Come on, Strangelove. I'd like to see you step into a Sudnay school without any training and do a better job than someone who has had training.

Well...I dont have trouble showing you life long Christian adults the errors of you're understanding so I dont think I'd have any issues with a bunch of kiddies.

Doing training with other people can help you learn from each other, and share tips etc. Yes, certain people have a gift of leading, or are called to lead, but that doesn't mean their skills or talent is fully developed. They need to learn how to best lead.

The only training you need is flicking through the Word of God. 'Training' and 'leadership' are worldly terms that have no place in an assembly of believers.

So I guess you don't believe ministers should go to Bible college? Becasue they should already have all the knowledge of the Bible and how to minister to people, since they are called to it, right?

RIGHT! What can a bible college teach you that the Word of God can't?

So all those people who to go this ministry conference and come out of it much better leaders....what do you say to them?

They come out of it being able to know how to control groups of people through pyschology and management techniques. Nothing to do with leadership.

What will you say to me next January?

I would ask you what you have learnt. And your answers will have nothing to do with Christ or the Gospels.

It's training to become a better leader and to learn about ministry and theology.

I just hope you bear these conversations in mind when you realise what these courses actually involve. See if they are Christ / theology centred or if they are management centred.

 

[Strangelove]

I'm 10000000% backing you on this.

Strangelove, not all churches (in fact most) do not teach this business management stuff you're talking about. Mine doesn't, and Alabaster's doesn't.

“Although community residents MAY NOT REALIZE IT [emphasis added], individuals participating in the BOLD Leadership Development Program became change agents and they are on a journey that many others have traveled to improve their community.â€

Are you allowed to progress to a child ministry WITHOUT going through a 'leadership programme' Nick? If not, ask yourself why?

How do they know your not an experianced child minister?

Why cant you just take an interview?

 

[Alabaster]

If you were really salt and light you wouldn't need a man to teach you anything. Living a godly life and being a good example is what the bible teaches. It's not the same leadership that these courses are teaching.

You need to stop being hyper-literal. The word of God tells us to be an example to others in how to live and that means we teach and lead. We are called to give honour to those that God places over us in the churches.

God gifts us with leaders and teachers and He places them over us.

You cannot maintain your beliefs in light of the whole word of God.

The School of Leaders you enjoy denigrating is the one at my own church and it is nothing like you think.

God teaches a man how to lead by the Holy Spirit. He chooses certain men. If you want to believe you can learn to lead and then to lead others by those learnt skills then you fool yourself:

Yes He does. He uses other men (and women) to teach us by His Spirit.

You have a long way to go in your new walk with Christ. It would behoove you to listen rather than make judgments on His people and His churches--places you only have disdain for.

Your opinions are pretty baseless and don't need to be heeded as too spiritually weighty.

If you are a natural leader. You've been blessed by God. You can lead yourself into God's doctrines. If not then you need to be lead by God. Or if you have fully tested the spirit of a godly teacher you can trust his natural leadership.

Whether or not you are a natural leader, if you are a born again christian, you are a leader by your new birth.

God will lead you into a deeper life in Him as you submit to His leading into a godly church fellowship where God-placed leaders can influence you and teach you deeper things of the word of God.

If everyone is a leader, which I think is non-sensical, why would you need leadership training?

We live in a fallen world. Duh.

 

[Alabaster]

This is a philosophy of ISLAM not of Christianity.

Haha! That is ripe! It just reveals that you have so much to learn about Christianity if that is really what you think.

Christians need only the Word of God for their meat.

We are taught the meat of the word by God and His written word...but He uses people to dispense it.

 

[Alabaster]

Well...I dont have trouble showing you life long Christian adults the errors of you're understanding so I dont think I'd have any issues with a bunch of kiddies.

That is just pride and an independent spirit talking.

 

[Nick]

Well...I dont have trouble showing you life long Christian adults the errors of you're understanding so I dont think I'd have any issues with a bunch of kiddies.

Strangelove, you're a pretty new Christian yourself, so you (and I) have a lot to learn. I think you need to change your attitude to one of submission rather than judgemental, which comes off as arrogant. That's my observation. You seem to be telling us Christians who go to church what our church is like, and telling us that they are engaging in unBiblical teaching. I will be praying for your humility and a further desire for fellowship with other Brothers and Sisters.

Oh, and for the record, I can show you hundreds of adults that can show you the benefit of these courses, and these are just the ones that go to my church.

The only training you need is flicking through the Word of God. 'Training' and 'leadership' are worldly terms that have no place in an assembly of believers.

So what does God mean when he calls certain people to be leaders? They need support and direction. Yes, the Word of God is excellent. God uses people to accomplish His plans. Godly People that teach you how to be a better leader, perhaps?

RIGHT! What can a bible college teach you that the Word of God can't?

They can help provide understanding on the Word, as well as in-depth studies of church history and ancient languages, plus how to minister to certain demographics. They teach you how to put a sermon together etc etc.
Did it ever occur to you that God uses His Holy Spirit to do His Works through men? Disciples who train disciples. :amen

They come out of it being able to know how to control groups of people through pyschology and management techniques. Nothing to do with leadership.

Wrong.
They come out of it being better equipped to minister the Word of God and the lead groups of people. They learn how to effectively write and lead Bible study groups etc.

I would ask you what you have learnt. And your answers will have nothing to do with Christ or the Gospels.



I just hope you bear these conversations in mind when you realise what these courses actually involve. See if they are Christ / theology centred or if they are management centred.

We are studying the Psalms and 2 Timothy from memory. I will be looking forward to this. :yes

“Although community residents MAY NOT REALIZE IT [emphasis added], individuals participating in the BOLD Leadership Development Program became change agents and they are on a journey that many others have traveled to improve their community.”

Are you allowed to progress to a child ministry WITHOUT going through a 'leadership programme' Nick? If not, ask yourself why?

Yes, I am. I am allowed to teach any aged child or even lead an adult Bible study without any formal training. All I need to do is to complete a Child Protection Seminar, which is required by Australian law for anyone who supervises kids.
However....as I have many times mentioned, I woujld feel much better equipped if I did do the ministry conference. It comes highly recommended, but is not required. Many of my friends have done it previously, and they have grown in Christ tremendously.

 

[Strangelove]

You need to stop being hyper-literal. The word of God tells us to be an example to others in how to live and that means we teach and lead. We are called to give honour to those that God places over us in the churches.

Whats that got to do with group management training?

God gifts us with leaders and teachers and He places them over us.

Are you still insisting pastors have authority over the flock even though I and others have clearly taught you that this is against Jesus' doctrine? Do you still have the ability to learn or has leadership training taught you that you are now right about everything?

You cannot maintain your beliefs in light of the whole word of God.

I'm maintaining just fine. You dont seem to be able to refute my position with any Words of God.

The School of Leaders you enjoy denigrating is the one at my own church and it is nothing like you think.

Well you could tell me what it IS like if you want instead of just sayin' I'm wrong. Why dont you provide us with an itinerary from a leadership training course and we'll see exactly whats involved. We'll see how much Gospel we have in there. Is there one on yer cell church site?

Yes He does. He uses other men (and women) to teach us by His Spirit.

Nuttin wrong with that Duckie. But where is the call to train to be a leader using group management courses? Whats that got to do with being a Christian?

You have a long way to go in your new walk with Christ. It would behoove you to listen rather than make judgments on His people and His churches--places you only have disdain for.

The only judgements that have been forthcoming is from you, judging my heart and condemning me to eternal hell for not attending a church building. But carry on exposing yourself so that the brethren here can see exactly how things work in a militant cell church.

6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall
not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

If you ask for forgiveness you will recieve. PM of you want. I will never forget what you said.​

Your opinions are pretty baseless and don't need to be heeded as too spiritually weighty.

My opinions are based on scripture. If you feel scripture need not be heeded thats something you need to take up with the author. The Holy Spirit.

Whether or not you are a natural leader, if you are a born again christian, you are a leader by your new birth.

Then why do you need further leadership training?

We are fit and ready to be a guiding light for others simply from our rebirth. What can management courses do for us?

God will lead you into a deeper life in Him as you submit to His leading into a godly church fellowship where God-placed leaders can influence you and teach you deeper things of the word of God.

God has lead me to godly leaders in my life who teach me by scripture. The only thing I can be taught by people who have completed 'leadership training' courses is how to use socialism and group think to control and direct cell groups to 'conversation' and 'consensus' on irrelevant worldly issues and how to bully people to conform to the church 'vision'. Exhibit A ---- Duckie!

We live in a fallen world. Duh.

So Christs training and scripture is not enough? Man needs to add more to the finished work of Christ? Interesting.

 

[Nick]

Are you still insisting pastors have authority over the flock even though I and others have clearly taught you that this is against Jesus' doctrine? Do you still have the ability to learn or has leadership training taught you that you are now right about everything?



I'm maintaining just fine. You dont seem to be able to refute my position with any Words of God..

Pasters, elders, deacons etc are put there by God to lead the church. Take a look at the following verses:

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13

12 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, to acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. ​

Hebrews 13:17

Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you. ​

 

[Strangelove]

Haha! That is ripe! It just reveals that you have so much to learn about Christianity if that is really what you think.

It's true. Islam believes that special teachers are required in order for scripture to be interpreted correctly. Ask Mujaheed Abdullah.

Christianity requires no such thing. The Messiah and His blessed Apostles are the only teachers we really need and all their material is written in the good book. (I'm talking 'bout the real apostles Duckie not you're modern 'Disciple making' Latter Rain type.)

2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that
needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.​

Take leadership courses to shew thyself approved? Uhm....no.​

Theres nothing wrong with teachers to help you along the way but we always test them against scripture. Scripture is our base not the fallible teacher. Even teachers need to be brought back to the basics:
​

5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that
one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of
God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong
meat.​

We are taught the meat of the word by God and His written word...but He uses people to dispense it.

Of course, Thats called evangelizing the Gospel. Not 'leadership training'.

 

[Strangelove]

That is just pride and an independent spirit talking.

Pride in my faith and independent from church mob pressure.

 

[Nick]

Of course, Thats called evangelizing the Gospel. Not 'leadership training'.

It's also called a pastor giving a sermon, or a Bible study leader leading a Bible study.