Church Transformation, Purpose / Mission Driven Church

[Strangelove]

Strangelove, you're a pretty new Christian yourself, so you (and I) have a lot to learn. I think you need to change your attitude to one of submission rather than judgemental, which comes off as arrogant. That's my observation. You seem to be telling us Christians who go to church what our church is like, and telling us that they are engaging in unBiblical teaching. I will be praying for your humility and a further desire for fellowship with other Brothers and Sisters.

Group management leadership training courses are unbiblical. Sorry, I know you dont wanna hear it coz you have you're heart set on it Nick...but its the truth. It's an exercise in socialism. It will train you to be a change agent in your church and to train others to do the same.

Oh, and for the record, I can show you hundreds of adults that can show you the benefit of these courses, and these are just the ones that go to my church.

Of course if people didnt think they're not doing godly work then the scam wouldn't succeed and grow. Ask them if the courses were all about the Gospels or all about controlling groups.

So what does God mean when he calls certain people to be leaders? They need support and direction. Yes, the Word of God is excellent. God uses people to accomplish His plans. Godly People that teach you how to be a better leader, perhaps?

I've got no problem with leaders! They are BORN leaders not trained. You're wasting your time training to be a leader. If your not a leader by the age of 18 then you wern't called for it.

They can help provide understanding on the Word, as well as in-depth studies of church history and ancient languages, plus how to minister to certain demographics. They teach you how to put a sermon together etc etc.
Did it ever occur to you that God uses His Holy Spirit to do His Works through men? Disciples who train disciples.

If your course is ALL about theology and the Word of god I have absolutely no problem with it. We'll wait and see shall we? Disciples dont train disciples. Not thesedays Nick. All the training is written in the Word.

Wrong.
They come out of it being better equipped to minister the Word of God and the lead groups of people. They learn how to effectively write and lead Bible study groups etc.

You havn't been through the course yet. We'll question you once you start and compare what you're doing with the communitarian essay and we'll get to the bottom of it ok? i know we can rely on you to be honest about what your up to. Maybe you can even provide documentation for us to look over regarding the course.

We are studying the Psalms and 2 Timothy from memory. I will be looking forward to this. :yes

Amen. If its all scripture it's all good.

Yes, I am. I am allowed to teach any aged child or even lead an adult Bible study without any formal training. All I need to do is to complete a Child Protection Seminar, which is required by Australian law for anyone who supervises kids.
However....as I have many times mentioned, I woujld feel much better equipped if I did do the ministry conference. It comes highly recommended, but is not required. Many of my friends have done it previously, and they have grown in Christ tremendously.

Can you provide documentation regarding the ministry conference? whats involved. how does it allow you to grow in Christ?

 

[Ed the Ned]

Stranglove, this is a very interesting topic. I would like to add my two cents worth in simple terms.

Leadership training has two dimensions. Firstly when a person is trained in leadership they tend to be trained according to the organization that is doing the training and secondly they are trained on set principles, these are generaly universal leadership qualities that are transparent in many leaders.

I don't think leadership training in general is wrong. Its when the training is more focused on organizational goals than on the leadership qualities of the individual I tend to become weary. I also don't think that we can determine our leadership status without the guidence of God. I believe there are times in my life when God has called me to follow and times when he has called me to lead. whether I have been obedient to that I don't know.

I agree with you that the modern (post modern) world trend in churches is extremely dangerous and warnings such as yours are to few and far in between. When biblical principles are sown into worldly ways for the sake of the world and not for the sake of God we are lapping at Satans pool of destruction.

This is not new and has been around in many forms since the first century and has raised its head with the new age movement. False religions such as mormonism etc. All seem to attack the emotional side of human nature and bring God down to our standards, even making him of us and us of him. We have diminished his soverignty, we have slandered what Christ did for us (emergent church) and we are building a world on non-christian Christians. :

 

[Strangelove]

Pasters, elders, deacons etc are put there by God to lead the church. Take a look at the following verses:

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13

12 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, to acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other.
​

Beaut. No problems with that scripture. Completely agree. It has nothing to do with training to be a leader though. Just how to care for them.

Hebrews 13:17

Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

Here we have the church authority issue again. Tell me Nick are you under the authority of your pastor? Just answer me that one simple question.

Do a lexicon study on Hebrews 13:17 and see if you can reword it so as to reconsile it with MATT 20:25-27.

 

[Nick]

Group management leadership training courses are unbiblical. Sorry, I know you dont wanna hear it coz you have you're heart set on it Nick...but its the truth. It's an exercise in socialism. It will train you to be a change agent in your church and to train others to do the same.



Of course if people didnt think they're not doing godly work then the scam wouldn't succeed and grow. Ask them if the courses were all about the Gospels or all about controlling groups.

It's all about the Gsopels and how to effectively teach it, and how to effectively lead people in the church, if that's your calling. It's NOT about controlling people, and is NOT socialist.

I've got no problem with leaders! They are BORN leaders not trained. You're wasting your time training to be a leader. If your not a leader by the age of 18 then you wern't called for it.

Oh and here we go again. I'm not going to bother repeating myself for about the tenth time.

If your course is ALL about theology and the Word of god I have absolutely no problem with it. We'll wait and see shall we? Disciples dont train disciples. Not thesedays Nick. All the training is written in the Word.

The Word trains us. It tells us to lead others and disciple and help others in their faith.

You havn't been through the course yet. We'll question you once you start and compare what you're doing with the communitarian essay and we'll get to the bottom of it ok? i know we can rely on you to be honest about what your up to. Maybe you can even provide documentation for us to look over regarding the course.



Amen. If its all scripture it's all good.



Can you provide documentation regarding the ministry conference? whats involved. how does it allow you to grow in Christ?

Yes, I'll tell you what happened at the conference after I've been to it. That'll be at about the end of January. I've got a brochure that I will post excerpts of tomorrow. It's here somewhere....

 

[Strangelove]

Stranglove, this is a very interesting topic. I would like to add my two cents worth in simple terms.

Leadership training has two dimensions. Firstly when a person is trained in leadership they tend to be trained according to the organization that is doing the training and secondly they are trained on set principles, these are generaly universal leadership qualities that are transparent in many leaders.

I don't think leadership training in general is wrong. Its when the training is more focused on organizational goals than on the leadership qualities of the individual I tend to become weary. I also don't think that we can determine our leadership status without the guidence of God. I believe there are times in my life when God has called me to follow and times when he has called me to lead. whether I have been obedient to that I don't know.

I agree with you that the modern (post modern) world trend in churches is extremely dangerous and warnings such as yours are to few and far in between. When biblical principles are sown into worldly ways for the sake of the world and not for the sake of God we are lapping at Satans pool of destruction.

This is not new and has been around in many forms since the first century and has raised its head with the new age movement. False religions such as mormonism etc. All seem to attack the emotional side of human nature and bring God down to our standards, even making him of us and us of him. We have diminished his soverignty, we have slandered what Christ did for us (emergent church) and we are building a world on non-christian Christians. :

Great post Ed. Completely agree with all of it.

If leadership training was Christ centred and explicitly 'leaderhip by example of Christ' then I would have no problem with it. It would basically be an advanced Bible study.

However, organizational group management training is what I believe is going on in the biggest modern churches today and are centred on social issues rather than Gospel issues.

Nice to see you Ed. You're not around enough buddy.

 

[Nick]

Stranglove, this is a very interesting topic. I would like to add my two cents worth in simple terms.

Leadership training has two dimensions. Firstly when a person is trained in leadership they tend to be trained according to the organization that is doing the training and secondly they are trained on set principles, these are generaly universal leadership qualities that are transparent in many leaders.

I don't think leadership training in general is wrong. Its when the training is more focused on organizational goals than on the leadership qualities of the individual I tend to become weary. I also don't think that we can determine our leadership status without the guidence of God. I believe there are times in my life when God has called me to follow and times when he has called me to lead. whether I have been obedient to that I don't know.

I agree with you that the modern (post modern) world trend in churches is extremely dangerous and warnings such as yours are to few and far in between. When biblical principles are sown into worldly ways for the sake of the world and not for the sake of God we are lapping at Satans pool of destruction.

This is not new and has been around in many forms since the first century and has raised its head with the new age movement. False religions such as mormonism etc. All seem to attack the emotional side of human nature and bring God down to our standards, even making him of us and us of him. We have diminished his soverignty, we have slandered what Christ did for us (emergent church) and we are building a world on non-christian Christians. :

:amen Ed!

 

[Strangelove]

It's all about the Gsopels and how to effectively teach it, and how to effectively lead people in the church, if that's your calling. It's NOT about controlling people, and is NOT socialist.

We'll see what you think once you've started it. If it were all about the Gospels it would be a bible study class. This thing will be all about how do lead a groups thought processes. We'll wait for you to start it and then we'll see mate.

The Word trains us. It tells us to lead others and disciple and help others in their faith.

Can you provide chapter and verse where it tells us to lead others please. Not saying you're wrong but I cant find the passages. The apostles were told to disciple the nations. A figurative command me thinks. I think a modern Christians job is simply to evangelize the good news.

Yes, I'll tell you what happened at the conference after I've been to it. That'll be at about the end of January. I've got a brochure that I will post excerpts of tomorrow. It's here somewhere....

Thanks.

 

[Nick]

Here we have the church authority issue again. Tell me Nick are you under the authority of your pastor? Just answer me that one simple question.

My ultimate authority is God. However, just as God has placed Governments over me, He has also placed pastors and leaders over me, to lead and discipline me (and in the church case) through God's Word in His Spirit.
It reminds me of the marraige unit. The man is the head of the women, just as Christ is head of the church.

Do a lexicon study on Hebrews 13:17 and see if you can reword it so as to reconsile it with MATT 20:25-27.

What has that verse got to do with church authority? It's about serving one another in humility. That's what Leaders do.

 

[Nick]

Great post Ed. Completely agree with all of it.

If leadership training was Christ centred and explicitly 'leaderhip by example of Christ' then I would have no problem with it. It would basically be an advanced Bible study.

However, organizational group management training is what I believe is going on in the biggest modern churches today and are centred on social issues rather than Gospel issues.

Nice to see you Ed. You're not around enough buddy.

Since when is the leadership training I've described organisational gorup management training rather than Christ centred training?

 

[Strangelove]

My ultimate authority is God. However, just as God has placed Governments over me, He has also placed pastors and leaders over me, to lead and discipline me (and in the church case) through God's Word in His Spirit.
It reminds me of the marraige unit. The man is the head of the women, just as Christ is head of the church.

Are you comparing governments...who assume legal authority over you, to pastors? Do you have to do whatever you're pastor says? Does he have authority over you?

What has that verse got to do with church authority? It's about serving one another in humility. That's what Leaders do.

That verse is showing quite clearly that Jesus doesn't want pastors to have ANY KIND of authority over the flock. Only for them to be servants to them.

Are we on the same page>?

 

[Strangelove]

Since when is the leadership training I've described organisational gorup management training rather than Christ centred training?

With all due respect Nick sir....I believe you are either misinformed or disallusioned with what is involved with your future leadership training course. I hope to God I'm wrong.

Can you post an itinerary regarding the course? Whats subjects are involved?

I'd be most interested to see. It cant be all Psalms and Timothy studies.

 

[Alabaster]

Are you still insisting pastors have authority over the flock even though I and others have clearly taught you that this is against Jesus' doctrine? Do you still have the ability to learn or has leadership training taught you that you are now right about everything?

Yes, our pastors have God-given authority over us. the health of the flock is their responsibility--a higher standard they must live up to and be judged on by God one day.

You cannot teach me anything. I cannot trust that you know the truth as you disobey God regularly in your rejection to assemble, and arrogantly criticize it.

 

[Alabaster]

Since when is the leadership training I've described organisational gorup management training rather than Christ centred training?

Agree---where is the idea that leadership training in the church of Jesus Christ is anything BUT Christ-centered?

We are dealing with an attitude, here...that's plain.

 

[Nick]

Strangelove, I am not going to continue to debate with you here. It's not getting anywhere. If you keep going like this you'll get yourself banned, and probably others as well. It's really a fruitless debate. Can't you see that you're casuing other members to sin, including me? I couldn't sleep last night because I was so upset about this debate, and you. I really want you to grow in the Truth, and I will continue to pray for you every night.

So I am going to bow out of this thread, for my sake and sanity. I believe Jeff answered your questions that you posed to me about leadership in the church very well, better than me, in this post (and those following) http://www.christianforums.net/f17/...rtant-necessary-32335/index19.html#post482577. I encourage you to look up to Jeff. He is such a Godly, humble and mature Christian.

However, I do have the brochure for the ministry conference, and will post excerpts of it. In some places **** I have chosen for church and people's names to be withheld.

Each morning we will all gather together to listen to the Bible read and preached. **** will be speaking from Psalms. Then we go to Strand Groups.

This year were are offering 5 different Strands:
Strand 1: Introduction to the Bible
Strand 2: Biblical Theology
Strand 3: Systematic Theology
Strand 4: Preaching
Strand 5: Church History

We encourage you to work your way through the first 3 strands over 3 years, and then to choose between Preaching or Church History.

We offer a wide and exciting range of electives to help you in whatever ways you are serving: Children's Ministry, Youth Ministry, Adult Ministry, Bible Study Leading, Evangelism, Personal Godliness and much, much more. Child Protection Training will also be offered at this time.

Each night we will hear **** peaching on 1 Timothy. This is a great opportunity to invite your friends who couldn't come during the day.

The Ministry Conference is a ministry training conference designed to equip Christians to minister God's Word to God's people.

By attending, you will gain a better understanding of the Bible and guidance on how to teach it, practical ministry skills and training in specialised ministry skills.

If you want to become better equipped for ministry, then the Ministry Conference is for you.​

I would be interested to see others' responses to whether this conference is Biblical or not.

 

[Strangelove]

Yes, our pastors have God-given authority over us. the health of the flock is their responsibility--a higher standard they must live up to and be judged on by God one day.

You cannot teach me anything. I cannot trust that you know the truth as you disobey God regularly in your rejection to assemble, and arrogantly criticize it.

If you're pastors have authority over you then they are going directly against Christs own teachings in Matt 20:25-28.

It's as simple as that. He didnt want leaders to have authority over anyone only to minister them. To be servants. And thats the truth. Can you even acknowledge these verses? Can you explain what they mean to you?

I'm not rejecting the assembly, I'm right here.

 

[Strangelove]

Agree---where is the idea that leadership training in the church of Jesus Christ is anything BUT Christ-centered?

Because leadership training is no where in the bible or in Christs teachings.

We are dealing with an attitude, here...that's plain.

My attitude is to stick to plain scripture. Thats the deal.

 

[Strangelove]

Strangelove, I am not going to continue to debate with you here. It's not getting anywhere. If you keep going like this you'll get yourself banned, and probably others as well. It's really a fruitless debate. Can't you see that you're casuing other members to sin, including me? I couldn't sleep last night because I was so upset about this debate, and you. I really want you to grow in the Truth, and I will continue to pray for you every night.

Nick....Am I not allowed to talk about this topic anymore? It would be a shame because this stuff is vital. How am I causing other members to sin by advising against leadership training courses? If you couldn't sleep last night, that is the Holy Spirit moving in you. He's obviously telling you that something is wrong. Were you thinking all night about banning me or were you thinking about the subject? Nothing I'm saying is not grounded in the Bible. All the opposing stuff on this thread is about modern, worldly methods and models.

Everything I'm trying to warn Christians about comes out of love and the desire to help people. There is and will be apostacy in the church buildings. There has been and will be further attemts at power grabs, socialism and servant-leader (business model kind) structures in the church. I'm not trying to stop the apostacy, it must come to pass. I'm just speaking the truth, individuals can do with it what they wish.

However, I do have the brochure for the ministry conference, and will post excerpts of it. In some places **** I have chosen for church and people's names to be withheld.

Each morning we will all gather together to listen to the Bible read and preached. **** will be speaking from Psalms. Then we go to Strand Groups.

This year were are offering 5 different Strands:
Strand 1: Introduction to the Bible
Strand 2: Biblical Theology
Strand 3: Systematic Theology
Strand 4: Preaching
Strand 5: Church History

We encourage you to work your way through the first 3 strands over 3 years, and then to choose between Preaching or Church History.

We offer a wide and exciting range of electives to help you in whatever ways you are serving: Children's Ministry, Youth Ministry, Adult Ministry, Bible Study Leading, Evangelism, Personal Godliness and much, much more. Child Protection Training will also be offered at this time.

Each night we will hear **** peaching on 1 Timothy. This is a great opportunity to invite your friends who couldn't come during the day.

The Ministry Conference is a ministry training conference designed to equip Christians to minister God's Word to God's people.

By attending, you will gain a better understanding of the Bible and guidance on how to teach it, practical ministry skills and training in specialised ministry skills.

If you want to become better equipped for ministry, then the Ministry Conference is for you.
​

I would be interested to see others' responses to whether this conference is Biblical or not.

Well, theres no mention of leaderhip in there. Looks fine so far. Of course we'll wait for you to start and see if they stick to this. It looks like advanced Biblke study. We'll see what 'equipping you for ministry' really means. I'd be interested to see what the electives are.

Please don't be angry at me Nick. I'm just bringing information forward for the brethren.

 

[Nick]

Nick....Am I not allowed to talk about this topic anymore? It would be a shame because this stuff is vital. How am I causing other members to sin by advising against leadership training courses? If you couldn't sleep last night, that is the Holy Spirit moving in you. He's obviously telling you that something is wrong. Were you thinking all night about banning me or were you thinking about the subject? Nothing I'm saying is not grounded in the Bible. All the opposing stuff on this thread is about modern, worldly methods and models.

Yes, you're allowed to talk about it. But i"m getting out of this thread. Yes, it is vital, and what you're saying about all this bussiness stuff getting into churches, I can see it and agree that it's bad when a business model takes over a Christ-centred approach. It's just not happening in my church, and the model that my church follows is Biblical. Jeff, Alabaster and I have already told you this.

Advising? Is that what you call it? Being judgemental and condescending goes against the Word of God. It causes others to become angry, and think hateful thoughts, thus the leading others into a sin, which is a sin unto itself. I know you've led me to think hatefl thoughts towards you last night. I am sorry for those thoughts but I really wish it had not come to that. Banning you had come into my mind, but that was more in my anger than anything else. But I really have a concern for you and your Walk. So it was a mixture of things that kept me awake.

Everything I'm trying to warn Christians about comes out of love and the desire to help people. There is and will be apostacy in the church buildings. There has been and will be further attemts at power grabs, socialism and servant-leader (business model kind) structures in the church. I'm not trying to stop the apostacy, it must come to pass. I'm just speaking the truth, individuals can do with it what they wish.

By all means, a rebuke out of love is needed. We are called to do it in James 5 and in 2 Timothy 4. The key word here is "loving", and not judging others. You very seem to come off as what that part in James is telling us how not to rebuke.
And of course we differ on the leadership thing. But as I said, I'm not going to discuss that anymore.

Well, theres no mention of leaderhip in there. Looks fine so far. Of course we'll wait for you to start and see if they stick to this. It looks like advanced Biblke study. We'll see what 'equipping you for ministry' really means. I'd be interested to see what the electives are.

Please don't be angry at me Nick. I'm just bringing information forward for the brethren.

Yes, we will see.

I'm trying not to be angry. It's not going well, mate. Please pray for my anger.

 

[Strangelove]

Yes, you're allowed to talk about it. But i"m getting out of this thread. Yes, it is vital, and what you're saying about all this bussiness stuff getting into churches, I can see it and agree that it's bad when a business model takes over a Christ-centred approach.

Ok friend, this is the ONLY thing I wanted to warn people of.

It's just not happening in my church, and the model that my church follows is Biblical. Jeff, Alabaster and I have already told you this.

Maybe I got the wrong impressions from the postings.

Advising? Is that what you call it? Being judgemental and condescending goes against the Word of God. It causes others to become angry, and think hateful thoughts, thus the leading others into a sin, which is a sin unto itself. I know you've led me to think hatefl thoughts towards you last night. I am sorry for those thoughts but I really wish it had not come to that. Banning you had come into my mind, but that was more in my anger than anything else. But I really have a concern for you and your Walk. So it was a mixture of things that kept me awake.

No comment. I'll just get myself in trouble. I don't want to cause you to stumble. But if I speak the truth then I'm not to blame. I'm totally open to being in error if anyone can show it. I'll wait for someone to post the details on the actual leadership training elective.

By all means, a rebuke out of love is needed. We are called to do it in James 5 and in 2 Timothy 4. The key word here is "loving", and not judging others. You very seem to come off as what that part in James is telling us how not to rebuke.
And of course we differ on the leadership thing. But as I said, I'm not going to discuss that anymore.

Judging someone requires judging their heart. Their faith. I have condemned no one, but have been condemned.

Yes, we will see.

I'm trying not to be angry. It's not going well, mate. Please pray for my anger.

Ok Brother.

 

[Nick]

Thankyou Strangelove. :nod