Church

[Corn Pop]

To be clear, we're not talking about those prosperity mega-churches, but rather your average church.

Ministers take a cut because that is their job, and most ministers are hardly living on a lot of money. And many churches I know do give back to the community and their members by helping those in need, and preaching the Gospel.


I'm not sure where you get the impression that is how it was supposed to be. That's how it's started, but it grew bigger and now has to spread the Gospel to over 7 billion people. There are many churches like you describe, but perhaps you don't hear about them because they are so small.

Yes, small churches like you describe receive donations from people who attend. So do large churches. Not sure what the difference is.

[/QUOTE]

So why are there so many seperate christian churches, because there all there own seperate buildings of there own truth, you can have 5 half empty churches on one block, yet all churches are different because there is no sound doctrine, freely pick your demomination.

 

[Hospes]

Kiwidan, are you interested in searching the scriptures to know what they say of churches and are you willing to conform your thinking to what you find in them? If you are, then the scriptures provide good guidance. For instance, when Paul calls for the elders of the Ephesian church to meet with him, what does it imply about the Ephesian church? (Acts 20:17) Or what does Hebrews 13:17 tell you about the church when it tells us how to treat our church leaders and how they will be held to account?

BTW, it seems trendy and be snarky about local churches. I would like to suggest it is a better idea to tell your friend his wife is ugly than to tell others Jesus' bride is ugly. It seems if we are to criticize anyone, it should be done with love, great care, and ultimately for their good. So much of the ragging on churches seems devoid of most of these. Just sayin...

 

[Nick]

So why are there so many seperate christian churches, because there all there own seperate buildings of there own truth, you can have 5 half empty churches on one block, yet all churches are different because there is no sound doctrine, freely pick your demomination.

The denominations are not really that different. Most - if not all - protestant denominations agree on the core tenants of the faith. Some differences are major but really a lot of it seems to be personal preferences.

I'm not really sure how you related church giving to your assumption that there is no sound doctrine in churches today.

 

[Nick]

But as a conscientious "devil's advocate"...

Working for a church its impossible to not give back 10% of your salary back to the organization that pays you. Records intended to help congregants with taxes are used against those employees who don't.

But in the meantime many pastors and employees get non-monetary wages never recorded or taxes paid on them in the form of gifts....like wardrobe and libraries and lunches and.... Some things that I would rather not get into. Never mind housing.



So...not saying that church employees don't deserve their wages but many are paid really well for the jobs they do.

Yes, there are other, non-monetary things pastors often get, and houses are one thing. Here's the thing in my area about church housing - there are a number of houses the church has purchased years ago, for the purposes of housing the minister(s). They're letting the current minister use the house, but t hey're not buying a different one when the minister changes. It's not really that outrageous.

I really don't think they are paid that well. Most receive about similar to the average national wage, plus their house. Considering the amount of work they do and the enormous spiritual responsibility they have, they're not really that well paid. I'm not saying we should pay them more, but I don't think they're over paid.

 

[Corn Pop]

I have nothing against giving in general, but when it all goes to a couple of people who spend it its a bit dishonest gain. Even a medium sized church the pastor would rather buy himself a nice car under church expences that buy 3 people movers to pick up the old people in the church and take them home. A 80 year old lady is expected to make her own way to church. It only thinks of itself.

Maybe a few churches do it. Can anyone here tell me if there church picks up and drops off its elderly people or people with disabilities, or even offers that service.

 

[Nick]

I have nothing against giving in general, but when it all goes to a couple of people who spend it its a bit dishonest gain. Even a medium sized church the pastor would rather buy himself a nice car under church expences that buy 3 people movers to pick up the old people in the church and take them home. A 80 year old lady is expected to make her own way to church. It only thinks of itself.

These are gross generalisations. Very unfair.

In my church, a committee handles the money. The pastors have no part in this committee.

 

[Corn Pop]

Church needs to be a house of instruction in the word of God that is taught in all truth as the Holy Spirit speaks through those who are teaching us, 1John 4:1-4. Church needs to be accepting of all people no matter who they are, where they come from and what they wear.

How can it be a house of Instruction if they clearly violate the Apostle Pauls teachings as one of the Teachers to the Church. Paul commands woman wear no fancy hair styles and no jewelery and dress modest in church, and you say anyone and everyone welcome no matter what they wear. Thats how worldly churches have become, and if I know that as a newbie, I would think the church leaders should know more than me. We cant pick and choose scripture. If they dont want to listen to Paul then they should not teach anything from Paul and throw half the NT out.

1 Timothy 2:9

 

[JohnDB]

I have nothing against giving in general, but when it all goes to a couple of people who spend it its a bit dishonest gain. Even a medium sized church the pastor would rather buy himself a nice car under church expences that buy 3 people movers to pick up the old people in the church and take them home. A 80 year old lady is expected to make her own way to church. It only thinks of itself.

Maybe a few churches do it. Can anyone here tell me if there church picks up and drops off its elderly people or people with disabilities, or even offers that service.

Yep, mine does.
We offer shuttle service to any and all who call and ask.AND pay taxi fare for those who haven't. Of course we have a fleet of vehicles of vans, truck, and busses. The pastor currently drives a truck and a four door car as his personal vehicle... Other employees who don't have a vehicle are paid mileage when running around on church business.
The deacons don't...but then they are not employees.
Our church has a food pantry and grocery store vouchers and funds available for poor and needy people when they can't pay rent or power bills. We have tons of "welfare" type aide for any who ask.
It was taxed to its limits a few years back when the jobs dried up but none were turned away.

So this idea that churches only look out for themselves is not accurate.
The financial decisions in a typical Southern Baptist church is made by its members at regular scheduled business meeting. It's not up to the pastor or an "elite few". (There are exceptions but most follow the norm)

Most SBC churches that I've been a part of have tons of local charitable ministries for the community they reside in AND ministries that go farther into the world.

There's no forms to fill out for aide...just a story to tell us as to why, what, and such. Membership is not a requirement nor is attendance.

Upon close inspection most churches do "feed 5,000 with very little ". Sure churches have assets... Some very nice ones. But God doesn't deserve leftovers... Only the very best; and a few people get that principle.

So...I'm not jealous OF God or his ministers...I'm jealous FOR him...

 

[JohnDB]

Yes, there are other, non-monetary things pastors often get, and houses are one thing. Here's the thing in my area about church housing - there are a number of houses the church has purchased years ago, for the purposes of housing the minister(s). They're letting the current minister use the house, but t hey're not buying a different one when the minister changes. It's not really that outrageous.

I really don't think they are paid that well. Most receive about similar to the average national wage, plus their house. Considering the amount of work they do and the enormous spiritual responsibility they have, they're not really that well paid. I'm not saying we should pay them more, but I don't think they're over paid.

No, not overpaid.
Wasn't suggesting that.
It's a really nasty job that I would never be able to handle. They want pastors to have families so they can tell him how he is failing as a father. Moms have to keep such a tight reign on the kids that the kids often rebell against God and all churches. Then there is the constant preaching from members of your church to your ear and people trying to control you in various ways as if...

And then on top of all the controlling idiots in the congregation you somehow try to get them to behave better and understand key principles of faith.

It's not a good lifestyle at all.

 

[Nick]

No, not overpaid.
Wasn't suggesting that.
It's a really nasty job that I would never be able to handle. They want pastors to have families so they can tell him how he is failing as a father. Moms have to keep such a tight reign on the kids that the kids often rebell against God and all churches. Then there is the constant preaching from members of your church to your ear and people trying to control you in various ways as if...

And then on top of all the controlling idiots in the congregation you somehow try to get them to behave better and understand key principles of faith.

It's not a good lifestyle at all.

Indeed. Such an important ministry but not for everyone.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Im looking for the Church of the Son of the living Most High.

Im seeking fellowship. Can anyone point me to a Church where the teacher preaches the members to only come to Church with a clean conscience and repentful clean Spirit. And if not, repent, then there welcome back. A non bludging church that does not give any 'hints' it wants or needs money.

Cheers.

That would be The Church of God in Jesus Christ, scattered as sojourners and ambassadors from a far away country on the earth. You will know them by their Faith, Hope and love that were planted in Mercy and Grace by their founder. A foreign language to the inhabitants of this country. (2 Cor. 5:18-21)

 

[for_his_glory]

How can it be a house of Instruction if they clearly violate the Apostle Pauls teachings as one of the Teachers to the Church. Paul commands woman wear no fancy hair styles and no jewelery and dress modest in church, and you say anyone and everyone welcome no matter what they wear. Thats how worldly churches have become, and if I know that as a newbie, I would think the church leaders should know more than me. We cant pick and choose scripture. If they dont want to listen to Paul then they should not teach anything from Paul and throw half the NT out.

1 Timothy 2:9

What Paul is saying is that a woman needs to be modest in her apparel as giving reverence to God instead of focusing on what she wears or how she does her hair. A women needs to dress as not to draw focus to herself or cause men to lust after her. Did Jesus reject Mary Magdalene, no, so why would he reject anyone for what they wear as Jesus will make the changes in us that need changing.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1 Corinthians 14:34).

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Timothy 2:11-12).

In these verses, Paul cannot be addressing women who were in the ministry, but rather those in the congregation who were out of order. How do we know this? We have many such proofs, many from Paul himself. Here is a partial list of women who were all in influential positions of leadership in the early church.

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!

Priscilla (Acts 18:26): Priscilla and her husband Aquila are often mentioned with great respect by Paul. Together they were pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. We are informed that they both taught Apollos, and pastored the church together. In fact, Priscilla is sometimes listed ahead of Aquila when their names come up. This has led some to speculate that of the two, she was the primary teacher and her husband oversaw the ministry. At any rate, we see here a woman in a very prominent position of teaching and pastoring. (Other references to Priscilla and Aquila are Acts 18:2, 18; Romans 16:3, and I Corinthians 16:19).

Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3): Here we see reference to two women who were "true yokefellow" and who labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

Junia (Romans 16:7): In this verse we see Paul sending greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners" who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a woman's name. In some modern translations, an "s" has been added (Junias) because the translators were so sure a woman could not be an apostle, that they assumed a copyist has accidentally dropped the "s." However the proper male ending would have been "ius," not "ias." No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the following directive. It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so.

1 Corinthians 11:5, "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

Furthermore, if Paul believed that all women should never teach or speak in church, why does he commend many women who did just that.

 

[for_his_glory]

Accept everyone and anyone?. Thats why the spirit of the churches are worldly and not godly and the Holy Spirit dont dwell there like they like to believe. They must be led to repentance. The churches these days are unrepentant, do you think Jesus is impressed?.

Anyone and everyone, you may as well just go to a concert.

Sure all people have issues, but church is for the repentant believers to have fellowship.

So you are saying all those people Jesus spoke in front of were not worthy to accept Him as Lord and Savior because they had not repented before Jesus taught them! The Church is the body of believers (not some building) and all are welcome to enter in, Matthew 7. Many go to Church out of obligation and many enter the doors seeking true repentance. How can one repent if they hear not the word of God.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Not my current church that I attend, but one before it I loved because the pastor was able to connect the messages in the bible to me easier, it had a wonderful choir and instrumental musician for songs, and in general just felt very spiritual. I felt very refreshed and happy while going there. But the down side is that while I connected with the pastor, I didn't know anyone else, and didn't get involved in projects to help with the church or the community. Not nessassirly the church's fault, but more mine. But I think some churches have a strength that others might not have, or might no be as strong. That other church also had at least one person ho came while trying to create connections in a community that wasn't part of his past enviornments. He was trying to recover from drugs and their temptation.

That said most churches I have been around have a message of redemption, repentance, praise, reading from the bible, love, and a warmth to it from one aspect or another. They might not have a sermon on each every Sunday, and some seemed to focus on a few of those more then they focused on some of the others, but I don't think any of them were like the rare, only good church in the area. They were all good in my estimate of them.

Again I hope you are able to find a church that you feel you can be apart of and feeds your spiritual needs.

 

[Willie T]

Im looking for the Church of the Son of the living Most High.

Im seeking fellowship. Can anyone point me to a Church where the teacher preaches the members to only come to Church with a clean conscience and repentful clean Spirit. And if not, repent, then there welcome back. A non bludging church that does not give any 'hints' it wants or needs money.

Cheers.

Sounds like your "ideal" church has already excluded the very people Jesus said He came to seek and save.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Kiwidan, the right church starts with you, not everyone else.
How many churches in your area have you actually attended and given them time to show their true colors?
Who are you that someone should lay this ideal church at your feet?

 

[for_his_glory]

No.
Being a full-time paid minister isn't just getting up for half an hour each Sunday to preach. It's about discipling and leading your congregation - that's called pastoral care. It is a full-time job and most ministers don't get paid all that much for it.

Eora you are so right. We are instructed in 1Timothy 5:17, 18 to take care of the Pastors needs (not wants) so that they can be about what God has called them to do. Some people have no idea all the various works that a Pastor deals with on a daily basis. The Church I use to attend gave the Pastor a certain percentage of the offerings and the rest went into paying the bills and helping those in the community that needed help even though they did not attend the Church.

 

[for_his_glory]

So many want to clean the fish before they catch them. We are all sinners saved by grace and how did we get there? We came to Jesus just as we were. Man can't change us as it is only by the grace of God that we are cleansed from the inside out.
Joel 2:32; Isaiah 1:18-20; John 4:1-26; 8:1-11; Romans 5:8; Rev 22:17

 

[Corn Pop]

The most irritating thing I find is when you quote scripture, the direct words what it says, people will always twist it to what tgey want it to be. Oh yea, Jesus said that, but read this scripture it really means that, Paul said this but it does not really mean that it means this.

People need to stop twisting scripture. God said to the JEW, bring FOOD into the TEMPLE, that means you must give tithe income money to the church.

Wake up people.

 

[Corn Pop]

What Paul is saying is that a woman needs to be modest in her apparel as giving reverence to God instead of focusing on what she wears or how she does her hair. A women needs to dress as not to draw focus to herself or cause men to lust after her. Did Jesus reject Mary Magdalene, no, so why would he reject anyone for what they wear as Jesus will make the changes in us that need changing.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law" (1 Corinthians 14:34).

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Timothy 2:11-12).

In these verses, Paul cannot be addressing women who were in the ministry, but rather those in the congregation who were out of order. How do we know this? We have many such proofs, many from Paul himself. Here is a partial list of women who were all in influential positions of leadership in the early church.

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2): This woman was a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea, who was beloved of Paul and many other Christians for the help she gave to them. She filled an important position of leadership. It would be a difficult stretch of the imagination to say that this woman fulfilled her duties without ever speaking in the church!

Priscilla (Acts 18:26): Priscilla and her husband Aquila are often mentioned with great respect by Paul. Together they were pastors of a church in Ephesus, and were responsible for teaching the full gospel to Apollos. We are informed that they both taught Apollos, and pastored the church together. In fact, Priscilla is sometimes listed ahead of Aquila when their names come up. This has led some to speculate that of the two, she was the primary teacher and her husband oversaw the ministry. At any rate, we see here a woman in a very prominent position of teaching and pastoring. (Other references to Priscilla and Aquila are Acts 18:2, 18; Romans 16:3, and I Corinthians 16:19).

Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3): Here we see reference to two women who were "true yokefellow" and who labored with Paul in the advancement of the gospel.

Junia (Romans 16:7): In this verse we see Paul sending greetings to Andronicus and Junia, his "fellow-prisoners" who are of note among the apostles. Junia is a woman's name. In some modern translations, an "s" has been added (Junias) because the translators were so sure a woman could not be an apostle, that they assumed a copyist has accidentally dropped the "s." However the proper male ending would have been "ius," not "ias." No church commentator earlier than the Middle Ages questioned that Junia was both a woman and an apostle.

Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the following directive. It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so.

1 Corinthians 11:5, "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

Furthermore, if Paul believed that all women should never teach or speak in church, why does he commend many women who did just that.

All you have done is twist what I have said, and then taken the direct words of Paul to make it as you please and make some big story.

Please show where I said woman cannot teach?. I said what Paul said how he expects a Godly woman to dress, and Paul never said they cannot teach, just not have teaching authority over the Man.