Churches, what’s wrong?

[Danus]

When I think of the church, I think of myself more than I think of the organization I attend. Virtually every church I've been involved with in this modern age is either one of two models.

1. It's a smaller church organization with a small budget, make due facility, strong emphasis on God, and very few new people coming in the door. ___OR__
2. It's a large backed, incorporated organization with an impressive building, large budget, stronger emphasis on modern life and issues, with many new people coming in the door.

#2 is the type of church I aline myself with these days, and the reason I do this is because I feel I can shine the love of God there more than in the #1 type. In my current church org. I tend to count the number of times the messages preached emphasis God. Often I walk out with 1 or 2, or 0 times Christ or God is mentioned, but I can count many times where the phrase; "In the bible" is said.

The fact is, my church , and others like it, are bringing people in off the street, and they are sitting in the seats, drinking our flavored coffee and enjoying the free pastries, and cool contemporary Christian music and awesome lights. Then they listen to a message that relates to their life. A message they can say; "Yes, I get that. That's me." and then we relate that message to the bible. Weak? well maybe it is to a well seasoned Christin follower, but not to a typical person who is not well connected to God.

If that person comes regularly to the services, we will eventually get them into a small group. If we get them into a small group, we will eventually get to know them. If we eventually get to know them then they will eventually meet one of the other group leaders, or stronger Christian followers and they will open up and see the love and grace of God shinning through others.

We are to preach, to live, and point to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Sure we are told to do this, but it should be our privilege before anything else. We used to do this in America by simply building churches. You could get anyone to come. Or pitch a tent in a farm filed and advertise the event and people would come. Or you could literally knock on doors and tell people about God, or preach in the street. ......try that today and see how far you get.

We like to say that America is a Godly nation. I can't think of any more of a false idol than that. Sure the church had a huge role in the founding of this country, but wake up! We need to stop saying that this country is a Godly nation, because it's NOT! If it where we could simply build a church on every corner and people would come. We could pray in school. Abortion would be a big question mark. (?) in the minds of people here. We are NOT a Godly nation. Yet the people who love God, who follow Christ are still tasked with preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, and yet we seem to complain about it more than anything, or we just find each other and hide in our little buildings every Sunday and as the member ship dies off and we start having fund raisers just for a paint job needed on the exterior of our hiding places.

Today in America we have a few strong, biblicaly literate Christians, and we have quite a few more "Traditional Christians" who are not all that biblically literate, and we have a bunch of want-a-be Christians who will follow all manner of false teachers so they can "BE Happy" and make more money or whatever, and we have people who like the message of Christ, but are lost, confused and don't know what "church" organization they "should" attend, and we have a growing number of people who have totally given up on God.....and frankly who can blame them when they are looking at this thing we have called religion.

Want to preach the gospel, or shine the light of God on others? You don't need a church organization to do that! You are the church and you can operate 24/7 nonstop, but you have got to get to the people, or have them come to you. Otherwise your preaching to the choir. But, when you find the people, they will not accept you on your terms. They will stone you like Steven! You have to accept them on their terms, after all that's Loving others.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since I'm going to be looking for another church hopefully soon, I hope I don't end up in that situation.=/

But chances are you will.

Look for a church/ministry that emphasizes teaching, and not just narrowed teaching on a single 'hobby horse' subject. It seems the needs of the genuine seeker of God these days are most closely being met in small extra-curricular meetings. Which is where the grass roots movement to transform the church could come from. Sadly, they usually lack the effective leadership that would make the movement what it could be. Leadership in the church is still focused on the grand and the spectacular. Until that changes nothing else will...IMO.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To "fix" this problem, I've been staying away from formal worship and gathering with a small group of like-minded people to study. That's probably a half dozen out of a congregation of over, say 300, who can care less about the bible studies and rather do potlucks or whatever. Does this give one a clue about the size of the church of God?

There may be a legitimate argument for the committed believers in Christ operating in the church despite the church. You have to be pretty strong to do that, though. And you have to be willing to accept the fact that that's the way it will always be.

Just let things go and don't try to fix it. For what cause? That's how God wants it to call a few right now in this age.

But that's like saying it's the will of God right now that his people not get the food and drink they need to thrive.

It's not a "go out and get everyone inside now" campaign, as evidenced by the fact that doing that will bring about the very problem we are discussing here now.

They use Jesus' own words to support this drive to bring anybody and everybody into the church so they can evangelize them:

"‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full." (Luke 14:23 NIV1984)

 

[P31Woman]

When I think of the church, I think of myself more than I think of the organization I attend. Virtually every church I've been involved with in this modern age is either one of two models.

1. It's a smaller church organization with a small budget, make due facility, strong emphasis on God, and very few new people coming in the door. ___OR__
2. It's a large backed, incorporated organization with an impressive building, large budget, stronger emphasis on modern life and issues, with many new people coming in the door.

#2 is the type of church I aline myself with these days, and the reason I do this is because I feel I can shine the love of God there more than in the #1 type. In my current church org. I tend to count the number of times the messages preached emphasis God. Often I walk out with 1 or 2, or 0 times Christ or God is mentioned, but I can count many times where the phrase; "In the bible" is said.

The fact is, my church , and others like it, are bringing people in off the street, and they are sitting in the seats, drinking our flavored coffee and enjoying the free pastries, and cool contemporary Christian music and awesome lights. Then they listen to a message that relates to their life. A message they can say; "Yes, I get that. That's me." and then we relate that message to the bible. Weak? well maybe it is to a well seasoned Christin follower, but not to a typical person who is not well connected to God.

If that person comes regularly to the services, we will eventually get them into a small group. If we get them into a small group, we will eventually get to know them. If we eventually get to know them then they will eventually meet one of the other group leaders, or stronger Christian followers and they will open up and see the love and grace of God shinning through others.

We are to preach, to live, and point to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Sure we are told to do this, but it should be our privilege before anything else. We used to do this in America by simply building churches. You could get anyone to come. Or pitch a tent in a farm filed and advertise the event and people would come. Or you could literally knock on doors and tell people about God, or preach in the street. ......try that today and see how far you get.

We like to say that America is a Godly nation. I can't think of any more of a false idol than that. Sure the church had a huge role in the founding of this country, but wake up! We need to stop saying that this country is a Godly nation, because it's NOT! If it where we could simply build a church on every corner and people would come. We could pray in school. Abortion would be a big question mark. (?) in the minds of people here. We are NOT a Godly nation. Yet the people who love God, who follow Christ are still tasked with preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, and yet we seem to complain about it more than anything, or we just find each other and hide in our little buildings every Sunday and as the member ship dies off and we start having fund raisers just for a paint job needed on the exterior of our hiding places.

Today in America we have a few strong, biblicaly literate Christians, and we have quite a few more "Traditional Christians" who are not all that biblically literate, and we have a bunch of want-a-be Christians who will follow all manner of false teachers so they can "BE Happy" and make more money or whatever, and we have people who like the message of Christ, but are lost, confused and don't know what "church" organization they "should" attend, and we have a growing number of people who have totally given up on God.....and frankly who can blame them when they are looking at this thing we have called religion.

Want to preach the gospel, or shine the light of God on others? You don't need a church organization to do that! You are the church and you can operate 24/7 nonstop, but you have got to get to the people, or have them come to you. Otherwise your preaching to the choir. But, when you find the people, they will not accept you on your terms. They will stone you like Steven! You have to accept them on their terms, after all that's Loving others.

You know I like that we have chruches like yours! I like what Andy Stanley says, We are married to the message not a model.

The Church I am currently an active participant in is a small country chruch. We have that home feel where very knows everyone and is at your front door with chicken soup if you are sick. My BF attends a large Church that brings in guest singers and speakers and even entire groups of people to put on conferences for a week. The always open their doors up to us small chruch folks. They invite us to come learn or enjoy the fellowship.

I agree with you when you said, "strong, biblicaly literate Christians". I don't view that as the fault of the Church. I view that as a failure in the family and the individual.

I also agree with you that "I" am the Chruch. At one time, our Church had a banner on the top of the door leading to the outside that read, "Welcome to your mission field".

 

[reba]

Churches, what’s wrong?

they are made up of people

 

[P31Woman]

Anyone think their Church has problems? Just look a the Chruch in Corinth! They had all sorts of problems from out right pride in imorality, to making promises they were failing to keep and using spiritural gifts as a way to draw attention to themselves!

We know they were saved because the Holy Spirit had given them spiritural gifts...they were abusing and/or neglecting those gifts.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If that person comes regularly to the services, we will eventually get them into a small group. If we get them into a small group, we will eventually get to know them. If we eventually get to know them then they will eventually meet one of the other group leaders, or stronger Christian followers and they will open up and see the love and grace of God shinning through others.

There's really no reason this can't be a legitimate plan for doing what God wants to do despite the church. But again, the problem I see is the leadership in these groups isn't really tuned into what God wants happening for the saints when they meet together. They're still thinking in terms of the vision for the overall church.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree with you when you said, "strong, biblicaly literate Christians". I don't view that as the fault of the Church. I view that as a failure in the family and the individual.

What I see is a church leadership that is not much more Biblically literate than the people they pastor. That, IMO, is the heart and soul of the problem--the leadership of the church. Really.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We are married to the message not a model.

You can say that again. I sure ain't married to a model!

But of course...my wife is.

(Ha, ha couldn't pass that opportunity up. Actually my wife is prolly one of the best lookin' 49 year old gals around.)

See what fun you can have in a small group?

 

[P31Woman]

What I see is a church leadership that is not much more Biblically literate than the people they pastor. That, IMO, is the heart and soul of the problem--the leadership of the church. Really.

That's not what I see. Then again we tend to see what we are exposed to the most. I guess the Churches my friends and I are attracted to tend to value education.

EDIT: Not to say that you don't. I realize that in the grand scheme of things my knowledge of the Church in this nation is next to nothing. My world is probably very small compared to most Americans.

 

[evenifigoalone]

My pastor sometimes talks about how he tried a bunch of other churches in the area before he found this one. He actually left the church for a while more than 10 years ago due to some problems with the leadership, but he said the Holy Spirit wanted him to come back and eventually he listened.
And yet I'm seriously considering leaving.

Could it be that not everything will work for everybody?

 

[Obadiah]

When I think of the church, I think of myself more than I think of the organization I attend. Virtually every church I've been involved with in this modern age is either one of two models.

1. It's a smaller church organization with a small budget, make due facility, strong emphasis on God, and very few new people coming in the door. ___OR__
2. It's a large backed, incorporated organization with an impressive building, large budget, stronger emphasis on modern life and issues, with many new people coming in the door.

#2 is the type of church I aline myself with these days, and the reason I do this is because I feel I can shine the love of God there more than in the #1 type. In my current church org. I tend to count the number of times the messages preached emphasis God. Often I walk out with 1 or 2, or 0 times Christ or God is mentioned, but I can count many times where the phrase; "In the bible" is said.

The fact is, my church , and others like it, are bringing people in off the street, and they are sitting in the seats, drinking our flavored coffee and enjoying the free pastries, and cool contemporary Christian music and awesome lights. Then they listen to a message that relates to their life. A message they can say; "Yes, I get that. That's me." and then we relate that message to the bible. Weak? well maybe it is to a well seasoned Christin follower, but not to a typical person who is not well connected to God.

If that person comes regularly to the services, we will eventually get them into a small group. If we get them into a small group, we will eventually get to know them. If we eventually get to know them then they will eventually meet one of the other group leaders, or stronger Christian followers and they will open up and see the love and grace of God shinning through others.

We are to preach, to live, and point to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Sure we are told to do this, but it should be our privilege before anything else. We used to do this in America by simply building churches. You could get anyone to come. Or pitch a tent in a farm filed and advertise the event and people would come. Or you could literally knock on doors and tell people about God, or preach in the street. ......try that today and see how far you get.

We like to say that America is a Godly nation. I can't think of any more of a false idol than that. Sure the church had a huge role in the founding of this country, but wake up! We need to stop saying that this country is a Godly nation, because it's NOT! If it where we could simply build a church on every corner and people would come. We could pray in school. Abortion would be a big question mark. (?) in the minds of people here. We are NOT a Godly nation. Yet the people who love God, who follow Christ are still tasked with preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, and yet we seem to complain about it more than anything, or we just find each other and hide in our little buildings every Sunday and as the member ship dies off and we start having fund raisers just for a paint job needed on the exterior of our hiding places.

Today in America we have a few strong, biblicaly literate Christians, and we have quite a few more "Traditional Christians" who are not all that biblically literate, and we have a bunch of want-a-be Christians who will follow all manner of false teachers so they can "BE Happy" and make more money or whatever, and we have people who like the message of Christ, but are lost, confused and don't know what "church" organization they "should" attend, and we have a growing number of people who have totally given up on God.....and frankly who can blame them when they are looking at this thing we have called religion.

Want to preach the gospel, or shine the light of God on others? You don't need a church organization to do that! You are the church and you can operate 24/7 nonstop, but you have got to get to the people, or have them come to you. Otherwise your preaching to the choir. But, when you find the people, they will not accept you on your terms. They will stone you like Steven! You have to accept them on their terms, after all that's Loving others.

Very well said.

 

[P31Woman]

My pastor sometimes talks about how he tried a bunch of other churches in the area before he found this one. He actually left the church for a while more than 10 years ago due to some problems with the leadership, but he said the Holy Spirit wanted him to come back and eventually he listened.
And yet I'm seriously considering leaving.

Could it be that not everything will work for everybody?

What I see in scripture is God telling people to get over their stuff and focus on Him and be busy building His kingdom.

Visit those Chruches for yourself when you are able. The Holy Spirit is there to guide you. I've had the Holy Spirit almost yell within me to "get away" from certain Churches and religious ministries I have visited. Later I discovered why. In every case the Holy spirit was right on the mark.

 

[Danus]

I'll be honest, there are times when I walk into my church and my heart is not right. I look at the people there and I get a little angry. I sometimes have a hard time listening to a sermon series I find weak, or I think; "I can't believe we have to preach this?" Or people will say; "what a great series on the importance of reading your bible daily. .......When I get that way I realize I'm not right in that moment, and that the church as an organization is not there for my sole purpose, or should I say, my sole purpose is not to attend church for my own benefit.

One of the things I need to work on is praying for others. I am one of several group leaders in my church and I get apathetic, I do. I get a little upset when I see young families walking in the door not better dressed, or particularly young ladies looking like they are off to a night club. Or, conversations where men talk about what they do, or people driving up in their shinny Hummers, Beamers, or worse....handing out their business cards making the church just another place to network! .... Oh would Jesus turn our table over?

But, when you scratch the surface of these lives you find people on the brink of divorce, dealing with financial calamity, addictions, loss of hope... They only display what they know. Indeed the church is a mission field. For many of our visitors, our church is a last attempt to find answers. When I say our church, I don't mean my church, I mean us individually.

I am blessed to have others in my real world approach me. It means they trust me. It means when they ask me about God, they feel I will not judge them. What a privilege to feel safe. I need that too. we all do. So, on the few occasions I've had someone say to me; "I wish I had your faith." or "I wish my kids and family where as together as yours." .....I correct them immediately. Are you kidding? I've no more faith than you can or will ever have. My kids are as depraved as rats. I'm not special; but God is. I am not reflecting me to you. I have no special powers, or strength, or knowledge. I am no more or less than you, we are the same, less our willingness to be what we can't be, and never where to begin with. That's the point of knowing and loving God; to let God love you for the mess you are, because he does. ....some get that. some walk away puzzled.

By the way, I just realized it was not fair to say my kids are as depraved as rats. No not fair at all.....to the rat. After all the rat only does what it was created to do.

 

[Obadiah]

...Could it be that not everything will work for everybody?

That's EXACTLY why there are differences among different churches. Although there are certain standards that God gives us, there are different ways to express ourselves and not everyone is the same. This is not a problem. What becomes a problem is when a local church ignores God and his guidance in favor of doing things the way the rest of the world does them. One local group of believers may prefer one type of music (just for an example of a common issue in American churches today) while another prefers another type. But both SHOULD be using the music they prefer to worship God.

But lately I've seen a very serious problem of churches who no longer seem to even believe in God! The example Tim from PA gives is a good one when he talks about how many in his church are actually interested in Bible study: "That's probably a half dozen out of a congregation of over, say 300, who can care less about the bible studies and rather do potlucks or whatever." My church is almost as bad. We get about half a dozen out of around 200, and that's pathetic. Quite frankly, I hardly even see them as "my" church anymore because of what I described in my original post, and to be honest I'm only still there because I am also a paid employee, I need the income small as it is, and God hasn't opened any other doors for me yet (even though I am asking him too!)

I agree with those saying this is a leadership problem. However I don't believe God wants us to just give up on His church. But what can we do when the established leadership shuns those who are called by God himself to minister, and instead looks to the "rock stars" of the modern church with hords of people following them. Maybe those are right who say we have to go off on our own, and minister one on one, shunning the church altogether? I know this should be PART of what we do anyway. But it's embarrassing when we minister to someone, they know we are part of a church so they come to our church, only to see this kind of faithless garbage going on.

 

[P31Woman]

That's EXACTLY why there are differences among different churches. Although there are certain standards that God gives us, there are different ways to express ourselves and not everyone is the same. This is not a problem. What becomes a problem is when a local church ignores God and his guidance in favor of doing things the way the rest of the world does them. One local group of believers may prefer one type of music (just for an example of a common issue in American churches today) while another prefers another type. But both SHOULD be using the music they prefer to worship God.

But lately I've seen a very serious problem of churches who no longer seem to even believe in God! The example Tim from PA gives is a good one when he talks about how many in his church are actually interested in Bible study: "That's probably a half dozen out of a congregation of over, say 300, who can care less about the bible studies and rather do potlucks or whatever." My church is almost as bad. We get about half a dozen out of around 200, and that's pathetic. Quite frankly, I hardly even see them as "my" church anymore because of what I described in my original post, and to be honest I'm only still there because I am also a paid employee, I need the income small as it is, and God hasn't opened any other doors for me yet (even though I am asking him too!)

I agree with those saying this is a leadership problem. However I don't believe God wants us to just give up on His church. But what can we do when the established leadership shuns those who are called by God himself to minister, and instead looks to the "rock stars" of the modern church with hords of people following them. Maybe those are right who say we have to go off on our own, and minister one on one, shunning the church altogether? I know this should be PART of what we do anyway. But it's embarrassing when we minister to someone, they know we are part of a church so they come to our church, only to see this kind of faithless garbage going on.

Do you believe God wants you to be at that Church?

 

[Danus]

But lately I've seen a very serious problem of churches who no longer seem to even believe in God! The example Tim from PA gives is a good one when he talks about how many in his church are actually interested in Bible study: "That's probably a half dozen out of a congregation of over, say 300, who can care less about the bible studies and rather do potlucks or whatever." My church is almost as bad. We get about half a dozen out of around 200, and that's pathetic. Quite frankly, I hardly even see them as "my" church anymore because of what I described in my original post, and to be honest I'm only still there because I am also a paid employee, I need the income small as it is, and God hasn't opened any other doors for me yet (even though I am asking him too!)

I get this, and I agree. I take issue with my church org not emphasizing God's grace more in the sermons, or hiding the message of grace in the sermon. But at the same time there are demographics of people in my area that need to be taken into consideration when developing a message. It's important that we know our audience before we speak so that we can know the best way to reach what they know, in the way they know it.

I think the church is poised for an other reformation of sort. God always corrects the church. It has out lasted nations, kings, wars...you name it, and it will endure.

 

[Obadiah]

Do you believe God wants you to be at that Church?

I guess that depends on how I look at it. As an employer, yes. They are paying me for something that God has given me a talent to do. I was no longer attending there when I was hired, but the new church I was attending wasn't really working out either. I was a few weeks away from literally being penniless and had prayed for God to intervene and show me what He wanted me to do. They unexpectedly called me and offered me a job that I hadn't applied for or even knew was available. In fact, it was a new position that they created with me in mind for it. I was in no position to turn down paid work after asking God to provide it. In the back of my mind, I still continue to hope that if I am "faithful with a little" that God will give me more and that He will use me in some more important way in that church. (Or open another door somewhere else.)

But as a church that I look to for edification and an example of God's family... No. Sadly at this time I am not growing from any influence they have on me, and am frustrated by seeing the lack of faith in God even among the upper leadership, elders, deacons, and even the pastor himself. My spiritual growth these days is coming more directly from God himself, His word, and fellowship with other long time Christian friends that are not even part of this particular organization.

 

[Obadiah]

...I think the church is poised for an other reformation of sort. God always corrects the church. It has out lasted nations, kings, wars...you name it, and it will endure.

You know, you are by far not the only one I have heard say this, and I have the same feeling too. If that is to happen, I desperately want to be someone God can use as part of this. I just don't know how and don't see very many open doors just yet, as much as I have asked for this. I only feel frustration when I see churches such as mine rejecting good men for ministry while hiring an associate "pastor" who got his certificate of ordination from an online organization which states that you don't even have to be "religious" for them to ordain you. There must be SOMETHING that us Christians can do?

 

[Sparkey]

What I hear in the complaint about leadership (behind the words) is that some form of "Body Ministry" needs to be expanded and encouraged.

• Bible Study would be one path toward the ultimate goal of Christians uniting together on common ground. Building friendships is the more important aspect.
• The analogy of the human body comes to mind here. Each "cell" in the body needs nourishment and also needs some type of "waste removal" system.
• We need to share Christ among ourselves freely.

When I turn to one of the most marvelous things I've heard said and try to analyse it, there are clues found regarding "how". First, here is the statement: "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us."

That seems to have a certain caveat within it. The "according to His will," clause, right? We might wonder what the Apostle John was talking about here. What kind of thing can we pray about with such confidence and knowledge that "God hears us"? The clue comes in the statements before and after; the clue ties into the analogy of the human body. Here's what John said, "And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him." We can have what we ask of Him, but that still doesn't answer clarify the "in His will" clause. What does? Does John give an example? He does. Next verse:

[QUOTE="1 John 5:16]If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. [/QUOTE]

So we can use the blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin that we see in our brothers. If the Holy Spirit shows this to any member of the body, we are to there and then, ask. This is the "in His will" question being answered. Jesus shed his blood for this very purpose. We know this prayer is heard. John goes on to speak about "sin that leads to death" and much has might be said about that, John says, "I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." So, and for instance, the next time I am seen to sin (or offend) in word, kindly ask God, that He may give me life, knowing that you are asking according to His will and that you have the answer.

Yes, Bible Study between members of His Body, yes, friendships and horsewhipping (oops, I meant fellowshipping), and yes, prayer offered in confidence and earnest expectation, for one for each other, as we work to the edification (building) of each other in peace. This is the "lymphatic system" of the Human Body. Our waste disposal system and how wonderfully made are we? We all know about the Circulatory System and nourishment, do we not know about Exercise? That it is important in the treatment of lymphedema because the movements of the muscles stimulate the flow of the lymph into the capillaries? Okay, I've probably milked the analogy too much, yet this, I hope, spoken to the "dry bones" of our bodies, is to serve as a reminder to Trust the Lord, love His law and know what it is to simply walk together with Him and others..