Churches, whatâ€™s wrong?

Obadiah · Feb 23, 2013

Sparrowhawke said:
...Okay, I've probably milked the analogy too much...

No, on the contrary, I think you have offered some words of wisdom and encouragement.

P31Woman · Feb 23, 2013

I wonder............

Of the billions of ways God could have given you income why did He select this particular way with this particular Church?

Sparkey · Feb 23, 2013

These are John, the Beloved's, thoughts. He was the one whom the angel spoke to in the vision. This is what was said,

Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!'" And he added, "These are the true words of God."

"New International Version (Â©1984)

We have been invited:
[video=youtube;Aod7NboFUq0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aod7NboFUq0[/video]

That video is part of the call to all of us.

This next is part of what we seeing now, the building up and the joining together.
Sound the Trumpet in Zion:

[video=youtube;tcsDdGI19_Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcsDdGI19_Q[/video]

Obadiah · Feb 23, 2013

P31Woman said:
I wonder............

Of the billions of ways God could have given you income why did He select this particular way with this particular Church?

And that's only part of it. A longtime strong Christian friend (not associated with anyone in the area I live in now) had been praying with me about this from time to time. Not only the financial situation, but the situation in this particular church (which at one time had been doing well, but gradually changed starting shortly after a change of leadership). Within minutes after getting the call for the job, I told her about it. There was a shocked silence on the phone for several seconds, and then she told me I had actually interrupted her prayer time. She had just been praying that God would find a way to get me back to this church because over the last couple of days she had a strong feeling God was telling her this was what He wanted, and she had been asking Him to make it happen. This was such an obvious answer to prayer that it made her actually cry! I also found out later that the decision to create the position and offer it to me had only been made the night before at the church board meeting. This was exactly at the time my friend started praying about this. I was told that the board came up with the idea and approved it in a matter of minutes (a process that would normally have taken at least a month or more).

So I think my being there is probably God's will, although I have a feeling there is more too it that I don't know about yet. But this thread wasn't about me in particular, my job situation, or about this particular church. The problems I'm seeing there, I also see and have heard about in many other churches as well. I am just a paid employee, not upper leadership. What can I possibly do? What can be done about all the other churches that are trapped in the same situation, worshiping their traditions and doctrines (not necessarily true doctrines) more than they worship God Himself and trusting in their own worldy methods of leadership learned from secular organizations and corporations rather than from the very word of God? Of course I can pray, and I have been for a long time now. But what opportunities has God given all of us to correct these kind of situations, and how do we know how and when to act on them when the firmly entrenched "leaders" completely stonewall anyone who trys?

Danus · Feb 23, 2013

Obadiah said:
You know, you are by far not the only one I have heard say this, and I have the same feeling too. If that is to happen, I desperately want to be someone God can use as part of this. I just don't know how and don't see very many open doors just yet, as much as I have asked for this. I only feel frustration when I see churches such as mine rejecting good men for ministry while hiring an associate "pastor" who got his certificate of ordination from an online organization which states that you don't even have to be "religious" for them to ordain you. There must be SOMETHING that us Christians can do?

God is doing something even though we may not see it. We all have a purpose. I'm not a pastor. That's not my vocation. I'm in sales of sorts. That's how I earn my living, but we don't have to establish churches for God to be used by God, obviously.

My mother used to say; "It's best to know your place." She grew up very "Victorian" in her approach to social issues and order and such. Lots of people did. It used to be more common place in our society, to know your place. Not any more. Today our culture has firmly rejected that idea and we have people trying to be what they want to be rather than what they actually are.

So I am not a pastor. It's not my place, not my calling. I know my place. God has given me the gifts He wants me to have, the place he wants me to be and live, and the people he wants me to know. I think that we need to work in that, and not look beyond it, knowing that God has other people in the places he needs them to be. So we have to trust Him. It could be that God is allowing the church as an organization to be what it is now. Heck, He clearly is. He has a plan in that.

P31Woman · Feb 23, 2013

I think many if not most people have had something occur in their life that kinda breaks them. You can heal but there is always that part of you that's weak. (death of a child, divorce, betrayal, abuse, depression, major family issues, addictions, etc) I fall into that group. One of the things that came to life for me during that time was the life of Joseph. Genesis 37

I often think back to Joseph and wonder if he knew with all the terrible things happening to him that God was working all that out of his good and it was God Himself who was in control.

Eugene · Feb 23, 2013

Revelation Chapters Two and Three expose seven different conditions affecting believers, their need of repentance or praise, and their reward. As it was at that time it continues today; we can be as the Corinthians or those at Berea.

As we grow in grace and truth we should progress from good, to acceptable, and on to the perfect will of God. Only two of the seven churches addressed were commended and seven were found with fault; where are we? 1 John 2:13 reveals three qualities of Christian growth: "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father."

farouk · Feb 23, 2013

questdriven said:
My pastor sometimes talks about how he tried a bunch of other churches in the area before he found this one. He actually left the church for a while more than 10 years ago due to some problems with the leadership, but he said the Holy Spirit wanted him to come back and eventually he listened.
And yet I'm seriously considering leaving.

Could it be that not everything will work for everybody?

questdriven:

You know, I often think of the verse where it says that David, in the direst of circumstances, 'encouraged himself in the Lord His God'. There is a sense in which David's past experience of the grace of God was such that when everything seemed to be disintegrating in his circumstances, he did succeed in seeking further of that grace he already relied on.

So I guess there are two separate aspects; some of the things that happen (or don't happen) at your local church, and then there is your own personal communion with the Lord Jesus as you pray and meditate in His Word for yourself.

(Good that you indicated on the other thread that you do have a reasonable relationship with the preacher's wife, too.)

Blessings.

iLOVE · Feb 24, 2013

If a Christian Believer doesn't hear Jesus voice in the pulpit and doesn't fill Jesus spirit amongst the congregation thy will flee. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27

Obadiah · Feb 24, 2013

iLOVE said:
If a Christian Believer doesn't hear Jesus voice in the pulpit and don't fill Jesus spirit amongst the congregation thy will flee. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27

Flee to where, when it seems so many of the churches have the same kind of problems? Ryan said he heard good things are happening in China (post #10). Is that the answer? Many times it's not so abvious as Jesus not being preached from the pulpit, or of the attitudes of the congregation. The problem is far more subtle than that even if the results are more visible.

iLOVE · Feb 24, 2013

Obadiah said:
Flee to where, when it seems so many of the churches have the same kind of problems? Ryan said he heard good things are happening in China (post #10). Is that the answer? Many times it's not so abvious as Jesus not being preached from the pulpit, or of the attitudes of the congregation. The problem is far more subtle than that even if the results are more visible.

1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want. 2 He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters, 3 he restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. 5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. 6 Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever. Psalm 23 1:6

Trust in the Lord...many Christian Belivers doubt and cancel their blessings because they donot BELIEVE. Belief + doubt = cancel blessings. You must only believe! Just a mustard seed of faith is needed with no doubt. Ignorants = when a person just doesn't know, Unbelief = belief + doubt, and disbelief = bad teachings. Little faith equals little word of God, lots of faith equals lots of word of God. Many Believers donot understand the true meaning of grace because of bad teaching.

He is the shepherd and we are the sheep...as I stated in post #49 - My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27

thisnumbersdisconnected · Feb 25, 2013

As time progresses and postmodern emergent Christianity becomes more main-stream, we should expect to see a continuation of the watering down of true biblical Christianity. In fact that has already begun to happen as several key “Evangelicals” such as Rob Bell and in particular, Brian McClaren have started questioning the singularity of the Christian faith and that it may not be the only road that leads to God. This is patently false, and should be exposed for what it is; heresy and apostasy within the Church. We should also watch for, and warn when we see biblical Christianity undertaking ecumenical or interfaith dialogues with other religion faiths, which legitimizes the concept that all roads lead to God, (they don’t).

Prior to the post-modern era, the central message of biblical Christianity was very simple; The birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and His substitutionary atonement for our sins, and that Jesus Christ is the only way to reconcile with God, as established in John 14:6. However, in an effort to attract more people into the church and to appear less divisive and dogmatic, the postmodern church gravitates to more of a ”purpose-driven viewpoint of establishing a global utopia” to quote Oakland, with less emphasis on what used to be sound biblical doctrine concerning such issues as homosexuality, eschatology, and the cross as the only means of reconciliation with God.

One of the hallmarks of the postmodern teaching is how the future is perceived. Rather than urgently proclaiming the gospel according to the Scriptures and believing the time to do so is short, the emphasis has now shifted. No longer are “signs of the times” significant. The battle cry is very different. A major emphasis among evangelicals is the idea that the world can be radically improved throughsocial programs.That is not to speak against social programs run strictly out of the church without government funding. Let me clarify: Those programs are outstanding evangelistic tools. They establish relationships with those who most need to hear the gospel, and they build relationships that allow us to effectively witness to friends, as opposed to preaching at strangers -- sadly, the latter being the more common and least effective method of gospel outreach.

However, social programs endorsed by the church but funded through the government is nothing less than the "church" allowing government to usurp its role. Jesus commanded us to care for the poor, nurse the sick, visit the prisoner. He did not command us to use the government to do so. When churches endorse such unbiblical use of private funds for public use, they no longer have the right to call themselves "the church" but are merely a socially irrelevant "cheering section" for government largesse.

We now live in a post-modern world, a world where it is increasingly more difficult to reach people for Christ. Many churches are attempting to develop programs to attract new people into the church. This is all very well and good, but unfortunately some of these programs can play into the hands of the great deceiver himself, (Satan), and can become twisted into another gospel entirely. Increasingly, we are going to see these things happen. Rather than critique the church, we need to be the church, steer it along Christ's narrow path, not let political agendas in the guise of "service to the Creator" infiltrate our churches. Instead of complaining and lamenting, we need to be preaching and encouraging.

So let's get to it!

Obadiah · Feb 25, 2013

I got thinking about this thread and another aspect of what may be wrong with our churches today; those who are actually allowed by church leadership to preach and encourage. There is a problem with the criteria many churches use in selecting their pastors and other leaders who are allowed to do this. When Jesus selected his disciples he expected them to drop what they were doing and follow him the instant he approached them (Matthew 4:18-22). Even Saul, who was a huge persecutor of Christians turned and followed Christ as soon as Christ revealed himself to him. But the church I attended last night (like many I have seen lately) has a pastor who spent most of his adult life rejecting God and being a criminal and drug addict. Another church I know of recently hired a youth pastor who has the same type of background. In both of these cases I know for a fact that there were other men who were called to ministry, meet all the Biblical requirements of a pastor, and had been given a burden for the people of these particular churches; men who had answered Jesus call to follow him at a young age when they first heard it and spent their entire lives this far resisting the devil, resisting temptation, and demonstrated their ability to follow God without falling into things such as drugs and crime. But in these cases (as in many others these days) these men were quickly and immediately rejected and passed over in favor of the recovering drug addicts and criminals who had a “very exciting and inspirational testimony”.

I have to wonder, though, what EXACTLY is their testimony? Their testimony is that they rejected Christ and voluntarily lived a life of sin for many years until they finally saw the error of their ways long after God first revealed himself to them. Now this is wonderful that they were able to turn their lives around, I thank God they did and their testimony can help others who have rejected Christ and fallen into sin to see that it's possible to turn around. But why are they rewarded with the opportunity to minister in positions of example as pastors, while at the same time the church leaders reject those who followed Jesus immediately in the way the disciples in Matthew 4 did? Sure, these ex-drug addicts and ex-criminals can be a wonderful example of how to turn away from a life of sin AFTER you let yourself fall into it. But if we are going to put an example of a Godly person on a pedestal like this, shouldn’t they prefer the example of the person who resisted sin and followed Christ immediately when Christ first revealed himself to them like the disciples did?

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying a person who has turned their life around and chooses to follow Jesus after a life of sin should be shunned or rejected all the time. But it is a very bad example many of our churches are setting when these people are consistently chosen and put on a pedestal over and above those who followed Christ from the beginning.

Sparkey · Feb 25, 2013

Obadiah said:
 I got thinking about this thread and another aspect of what may be wrong with our churches today; those who are actually allowed by church leadership to preach and encourage. There is a problem with the criteria many churches use in selecting their pastors and other leaders who are allowed to do this. When Jesus selected his disciples he expected them to drop what they were doing and follow him the instant he approached them (Matthew 4:18-22). Even Saul, who was a huge persecutor of Christians turned and followed Christ as soon as Christ revealed himself to him. But the church I attended last night (like many I have seen lately) has a pastor who spent most of his adult life rejecting God and being a criminal and drug addict. Another church I know of recently hired a youth pastor who has the same type of background. In both of these cases I know for a fact that there were other men who were called to ministry, meet all the Biblical requirements of a pastor, and had been given a burden for the people of these particular churches; men who had answered Jesus call to follow him at a young age when they first heard it and spent their entire lives this far resisting the devil, resisting temptation, and demonstrated their ability to follow God without falling into things such as drugs and crime. But in these cases (as in many others these days) these men were quickly and immediately rejected and passed over in favor of the recovering drug addicts and criminals who had a “very exciting and inspirational testimony”.

I have to wonder, though, what EXACTLY is their testimony? Their testimony is that they rejected Christ and voluntarily lived a life of sin for many years until they finally saw the error of their ways long after God first revealed himself to them. Now this is wonderful that they were able to turn their lives around, I thank God they did and their testimony can help others who have rejected Christ and fallen into sin to see that it's possible to turn around. But why are they rewarded with the opportunity to minister in positions of example as pastors, while at the same time the church leaders reject those who followed Jesus immediately in the way the disciples in Matthew 4 did? Sure, these ex-drug addicts and ex-criminals can be a wonderful example of how to turn away from a life of sin AFTER you let yourself fall into it. But if we are going to put an example of a Godly person on a pedestal like this, shouldn’t they prefer the example of the person who resisted sin and followed Christ immediately when Christ first revealed himself to them like the disciples did?

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying a person who has turned their life around and chooses to follow Jesus after a life of sin should be shunned or rejected all the time. But it is a very bad example many of our churches are setting when these people are consistently chosen and put on a pedestal over and above those who followed Christ from the beginning.

I was intrigued by your thought about "putting them on a pedestal" and would agree that it is a good thing to respond to the Call of God into the ministry of service to His body. I also would agree that there's something hinky about selecting drama over faithfulness that deserves prayerful examination.

My thoughts were led, while reading your initial statements about the time of Jesus, to the difference in views (world-views especially) that each of the two different cultures have. In Jesus' time, and within that culture, the idea of support freely given was something received with a less jaundiced or skeptical eye than today. We've seen the pleas of celebrities on the television that we "help the children," and have pondered how much of each donation arrives on target. Somewhere I read that it was the ministry of the women of that day that helped to allow the Gospel to be spread relatively unhindered by the burden of having to stop and work to provide. Various families of believers would take turns giving shelter and food to our Savior and his followers. Those who have researched the subject more than I have pointed to specific mothers of different disciples who engaged in the ministry of support in that fashion.

The "church" today is clearly not the same as it was in that day, nor do I suggest that it need be. What I'm thinking is that each member may do well to ponder your message and allow the Holy Spirit to lead them toward a better path. I'm guilty (being poor) of not giving enough but when I had money, it was not often wisely spent. I'm glad of the fact that God looks at hearts and the example of the Widow's Mite that Jesus spoke of, showing us the only right view of this.

As for the preference of dramatic testimony over fidelity? I can not say if the elders of the various churches (in a time of war) would be well served by being guided by principles that function best in a time of peace. Clearly there needs to be a balance (and I lean toward what I hear you saying) with more examples of the ones who have shown themselves to be overcomers. Past is past, sins are covered and yet there is something about a person who relates to modern struggles so intimately. I do appreciate your thoughtful post.

P31Woman · Feb 25, 2013

"putting them on a pedestal"

That's the part that is ringing in my head too. I am thinking about the book of James chapter 2.

farouk · Feb 25, 2013

questdriven said:
He actually left the church for a while more than 10 years ago due to some problems with the leadership, but he said the Holy Spirit wanted him to come back and eventually he listened.
And yet I'm seriously considering leaving.
..

PS: questdriven:

Just thinking: if he himself left (for whatever reason) he and his wife must surely be able to empathize with the fact that others, too, might from time to time have their reasons for leaving also?

Blessings.

WIP · Feb 25, 2013

The answer is in the hands of leadership. Until the leadership changes it's attitude the church will not change.

Hi Jethro,

I might be more inclined to think that it isn't in the hands of the leadership but more likely what leadership is in control, human or God.

farouk · Feb 25, 2013

P31Woman said:
"putting them on a pedestal"

That's the part that is ringing in my head too. I am thinking about the book of James chapter 2.

P31Woman:

Yes, there is a saying that: 'The best of men, are only men at best'.

Jethro Bodine · Feb 28, 2013

WIP said:
Hi Jethro,

I might be more inclined to think that it isn't in the hands of the leadership but more likely what leadership is in control, human or God.

Probably true.

YosefHayim · Feb 28, 2013

I feel preaching prophecy needs to be restored in the church. If more people saw the fulfilling of miracles in the world, they'd work more into wanting to hear how to produce good fruits. They would know that the Heavenly father is God and that Jesus is Lord, and they would love and want to seek the kingdom.

We should teach all the counsel of god. Not 1/4th the counsel, not half the counsel, but all the counsel of God.

See Acts 20:25-27

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Churches, whatâ€™s wrong?

Obadiah

P31Woman

Sparkey

Retired

Obadiah

Danus

P31Woman

Eugene

farouk

iLOVE

Obadiah

iLOVE

thisnumbersdisconnected

Obadiah

Sparkey

Retired

P31Woman

farouk

WIP

farouk

Jethro Bodine

YosefHayim