Cigarette Smoking Christians

[Drew]

No, smoking is NOT a sin.View attachment 2041

The eternal optimist that I am (perhaps against better judgement), I ask you to tell me what is the mistake the following argument:

1. The kingdom of God has already been initiated;

2. We, the church are to be agents working to implement that kingdom;

3. One goal of the Kingdom of God is that human beings experience physical healing - yes, we all die, that not's the point - we are to follow Jesus' healing model all the same. The kingdom is growing, but will only be perfected in the future so the argument "we all die so how can God be trying to heal the world be true" fails;

4. Smoking only harms the body (it does other bad things like cost $$, but we'll let that pass);

5. Therefore, smoking is in direct opposition to the kingdom imperative to heal.

6. Therefore, smoking is sin.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

[reba]

People can stop smoking when they really want to. Once you wean off the nicotine, the urges will end eventually (in about 6 months)

Not always the case.... I quit 1971 and still fight the battle. Thats 40 years... Hey 40 years, maybe, just maybe i can get out of the wilderness :yes

 

[Sparkey]

I have no idea what you are saying here.

Do you think that it is mere coincidence that I have a book on my lap entitled, "How to Negotiate Like a Child" and one of the chapters in the book is titled, "Pretend you don't hear or understand what the other side is saying"??? Let me then ask you to be very specific when you reply and alleviate my now real doubt that you are using your utmost skill and integrity while meeting me as I am trying to meet you, somewhere in the middle. Write me the coloring book edition about what you don't understand, please. Pretty please. I don't want to think I misjudged you again. Seriously.

Cordially once again,
!Sparrow

PS - Does anybody else see the advertisement below that asks, "Do YOU Smoke?" It's an advertisement for Vitamins that invites me to "learn more." At least that advertisement, designed for pure profit and targeted seemingly specifically at me, a smoker - offers something other than mere condemnation. That is more godly than what I see in the 6 point presentation currently under discussion. Drew, can you not see what I mean, really?

If you went to the doctor (who is in the business of healing) and he gave you a diagnosis [and nothing more] <-- edited by Sparrow for clarity-- would you be satisified?

Now that I've replied, consider it again and recall that I was trying to agree with your conclusion that what I was talking about was an ommission on your part. Then, if you still don't understand me, let me again ask you, as you have asked both myself and others, to be specific about what it is exactly that I have tried to say that you don't understand when you make your reply here. Feel free to Private Message me too, if that might help. I'm trying to take care and be helpful, in this discussion, because I didn't do right before- part of my decision is to forsake real opposition while talking to you. I'm still working on not giving the appearance of opposition but don't know how well I'm doing in that regard. Help me out, tell me where I went wrong when I tried to reach you.

I apologize if I am not offering adequate empathy.

Thank you but I think that I understand that part. You don't want to come off as an uncaring person. To me, that's more about typing stuff out instead of speaking face to face than it is anything else. I do also appreciate your apology and your willingness to give it, but I'm coming to believe that you're pretty much what you say you are, some guy who sins and wants to make amends as service to his Lord.
~S

PPS: This is the part of my post that you didn't copy and paste when replying. Is it safe for me to assume that what follows below was understood?

With very little trouble (by including text that sends a message of hope) my thought would be that the things you're getting tired of hearing would be eliminated. Remember, if you will, the title of this thread is "Cigarette Smoking Christians," meaning we are discussing Christians, not cigarettes. It is a subtle difference. Drawing the distinction into your message would make a big difference in the percieved tone of your message. Even a simple "PS - There is hope for smokers. --PM if you'd like to discuss further," would suffice.

 

[PraiseHimFirst]

There's no way I'm reading this whole thread so I'm sorry if I'm just echoing someone else here..
My husband is an upper mid-class Christian and he smokes. He doesn't drink, cheat, do other drugs, hit me.. other than parts of his personality and attitude I don't like, he is a good guy. I don't smoke, but I do find it upsetting that you lump all smokers in together like they are low class, disgusting people. My husband doesn't smoke in the company of others and he is respectful of others sensitivity to his smoking. It is irresponsible and I hate it, but it is his RIGHT to smoke and that's something we all have to deal with..

 

[Michael]

Hello. New here.

Just renewed my relationship with Christ. I was kind of doing my own thing for about 10-15 years. (Drug addiction, sexual immorality, etc.) I'm glad the LORD has grabbed my attention and helped me renew my commitment to Him.

I believe smoking is a sin. It is damaging to the body. I don't think God would want us doing such things that tears apart our health. I am currently a smoker. I overcame drug addiction when the LORD himself carried me through the storm. Even though the Bible doesn't say specifically that smoking cigarettes is a sin, I believe it to be. But, I have my faith in Jesus that he has a time ordained for me to quit. I trust in Him that eventually, under His plans for me, that I will conquer this as I have with my other struggles.

I don't think God will condemn us to eternal punishment if we're never able to kick the habit. He knows what's really in our hearts; how we think; how we feel. I believe we can be held accountable for our transgressions though.

Although I see smoking as a sin, I do not see it coming in between my relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. If anything, it will help me grow in faith knowing the LORD has plans for me, and when He feels the time is right, He will carry me through.

Just IMO.

 

[Drew]

Do you think that it is mere coincidence that I have a book on my lap entitled, "How to Negotiate Like a Child" and one of the chapters in the book is titled, "Pretend you don't hear or understand what the other side is saying"??? Let me then ask you to be very specific when you reply and alleviate my now real doubt that you are using your utmost skill and integrity while meeting me as I am trying to meet you, somewhere in the middle. Write me the coloring book edition about what you don't understand, please. Pretty please. I don't want to think I misjudged you again. Seriously.

I cannot answer this. I simply could not understand your recent post. Asking to me explain that is impossible - all I can say is "you wrote some material whose meaning to me is unclear.

And if you continue to make implications about my integrity, you will go back on "ignore". I want to be reasonable, but you have to realize its entirely inappropriate to question my integrity when you have no actual basis to do so.

If I was to guess, I would say that you are saying that I should show compassion to smokers. Well, you would definitely be right, and even though I have repeatedly said that smoking was an addiction, and that I am empathetic to smokers, perhaps I should do more. But, to be frank, the activity is still sin, even though we should respond with compassion.

 

[Drew]

PS - Does anybody else see the advertisement below that asks, "Do YOU Smoke?" It's an advertisement for Vitamins that invites me to "learn more." At least that advertisement, designed for pure profit and targeted seemingly specifically at me, a smoker - offers something other than mere condemnation. That is more godly than what I see in the 6 point presentation currently under discussion. Drew, can you not see what I mean, really?

No, I cannot. There is no condemnation at all in my 6 point argument - you are reading that in. I agree that we need to show compassion to smokers. But to deny that its sin is one of the least compassionate things we can do.

Now that I've replied, consider it again and recall that I was trying to agree with your conclusion that what I was talking about was an ommission on your part. Then, if you still don't understand me, let me again ask you, as you have asked both myself and others, to be specific about what it is exactly that I have tried to say that you don't understand when you make your reply here. Feel free to Private Message me too, if that might help. I'm trying to take care and be helpful, in this discussion, because I didn't do right before- part of my decision is to forsake real opposition while talking to you. I'm still working on not giving the appearance of opposition but don't know how well I'm doing in that regard. Help me out, tell me where I went wrong when I tried to reach you.

I now think I understand your general point - you agree with my argument that smoking is sin, but see me as condemning smokers and showing no empathy. I am not sure how to make you believe that this is not the case. Have I ever said anything condemnatory? Where?

I agree - the doctor should offer compassion and support. And I agree that I should do so as well.

 

[reba]

Hello. New here.

Just renewed my relationship with Christ. I was kind of doing my own thing for about 10-15 years. (Drug addiction, sexual immorality, etc.) I'm glad the LORD has grabbed my attention and helped me renew my commitment to Him.

I believe smoking is a sin. It is damaging to the body. I don't think God would want us doing such things that tears apart our health. I am currently a smoker. I overcame drug addiction when the LORD himself carried me through the storm. Even though the Bible doesn't say specifically that smoking cigarettes is a sin, I believe it to be. But, I have my faith in Jesus that he has a time ordained for me to quit. I trust in Him that eventually, under His plans for me, that I will conquer this as I have with my other struggles.

I don't think God will condemn us to eternal punishment if we're never able to kick the habit. He knows what's really in our hearts; how we think; how we feel. I believe we can be held accountable for our transgressions though.

Although I see smoking as a sin, I do not see it coming in between my relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. If anything, it will help me grow in faith knowing the LORD has plans for me, and when He feels the time is right, He will carry me through.

Just IMO.

Well welcome home Michael! God is good at finding His sheep!

Your post is on the mark!

 

[Drew]

I don't smoke, but I do find it upsetting that you lump all smokers in together like they are low class, disgusting people.

I am sorry to jump on you, but this is an outrageous untruth. Have you no concern at all for the facts? Since I am pretty much the advocate for the "smoking is sin" position, I am confident this is directed at me.

So please - name the post by number - where did I write anything to the effect that smokers are "low class, disgusting people"?

The lack of respect for telling the truth around here is appallling.

 

[Drew]

I don't think God will condemn us to eternal punishment if we're never able to kick the habit.

I agree - smoking is not a ticket to hell. It is a deeply addictive behaviour and we (the church) should certainly not be condemning smokers.

 

[reba]

There's no way I'm reading this whole thread so I'm sorry if I'm just echoing someone else here..
My husband is an upper mid-class Christian and he smokes. He doesn't drink, cheat, do other drugs, hit me.. other than parts of his personality and attitude I don't like, he is a good guy. I don't smoke, but I do find it upsetting that you lump all smokers in together like they are low class, disgusting people. My husband doesn't smoke in the company of others and he is respectful of others sensitivity to his smoking. It is irresponsible and I hate it, but it is his RIGHT to smoke and that's something we all have to deal with..

PHF don't worry some folks just can't help themselves, they cant understand agreement if it is not absolute. Some folks just do not grasp how they sound to others. They become as sounding brass, and the good message is lost.
I would rather face God as a smoker then a pharisee any day.

I pray your husband can/will QUIT! Boy do i agree i hate it too...

 

[Sparkey]

Guys, Ladies (and self)...

Drew isn't saying that all smokers are beyond the grace of God. I've not heard him even so much as say any smoker is beyond Grace. He is saying that smoking is sin and my only point is that alone doesn't qualify as a healing message. I'm struggling to understand, that's normal though isn't it? Did the law slay us or was it our choice of sin [over obedience to God] that caused the fall? Poor exprssion of his heart does not define him just as much as poor judgment on my part (I hope) does not define me. Right?

Pretty sure that the comment about disrespectful people around here and the observation that many here do not love the truth is also poor expression on his part. Does water slide off the back of a duck? Why? I suspect that it's because of oil. One of the analogies of the Holy Spirit that is made is that the Spirit of God is like oil. The word "spirit" refers to the very breath of God. It was that breath, His breath = that was blown into the nostril of Adam that gave us life. How the goodness of God was able to animate and give life to dust is a ponderous mystery but that very action continues today in us as we allow. We know that our breath animates our speech, would that His breath, His spirit did moreso than ours. That is our task then, to harness our spirits to His purpose of healing by His Spirit and speak the truth in kindness. Each Christian here knows this and I have not been the best of examples but am trying to keep it in mind now.

King David thought about these things - Psalm 133 is only 3 verses: "[[A Song of degrees of David.]] Behold, how good and how pleasant [it is] for brethren to dwell together in unity! [It is] like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, [even] Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, [and as the dew] that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, [even] life for evermore." - Psalm 133:1-3 KJV



~Sparrow

 

[reba]

Sparrow i think that is how most of the rest of us see this thread...

 

[Drew]

Drew isn't saying that all smokers are beyond the grace of God. I've not heard him even so much as say any smoker is beyond Grace. He is saying that smoking is sin and my only point is that alone isn't a healing message.

I agree. I have focused on making the case that smoking is sin and have almost certainly not balanced that enough with an appropriate "positive" encouragement about (1) the possibility of deliverance; (2) that smokers are "victims" more than they are "sinners". I apologize for that lack of balance.

Let me re-iterate: I do not believe that quitting smoking is as easy as giving up french fries. Or ice cream. Nicotine is, so they tell us, extremely addictive. So the smoker should be understood as a person who is at the mercy of forces that are very hard to control. The Christian response should be one of compassion and help, not moral condemnation. Of course, this is not to say, that we deny that smoking is indeed sinful, it is, instead, to do what we always should do: be truthful, yet temper all "hard" truths with compassion and love.

Pretty sure that the comment about disrespectful people around here and the observation that many here do not love the truth is also poor expression on his part.

Sorry, but I have to stick with my statement - there has been a lot of "bearing of false witness" in this thread. I have been called a hypocrite - with no evidence to support such assertions. And I have been called worse with no substantiation. No, on this issue, I am "unrepentent".

For example, the "Pharisee" accusation - an out and out lie. And it really is a lie - the people who have made this accusation simply cannot produce a scintilla, nay not a shred of actual textual evidence to support this accusation.

 

[reba]

Originally Posted by reba
This thread has retaught me a very important ideal..
Not to think/believe i am right
It has taught me anew about the other guys shoes
It has taught me i would rather smoke a ugly sinful cigarette then be a pharisee

Thanks

Drew response was to call me a liar

You lie, and like other who do the same, are now on ignore.

​

 

[Sparkey]

Reba, that makes me cry and I have nothing to offer by way of healing other than the hope that we all have, that no sacrifice made for His Name's sake is ever unnoticed or unrewarded. He too has been falsely accused and that by me. I can not abide my own act but I can ask that the One we Trust comfort you. I'm not defending his statement but rescinding mine. I lied when I suggested that he was a Pharasee earlier and I was oh soooo careful in the way that I worded it. I said that he was acting in a clean the outside of the cup manner as well as other things. You stepped into the mess that I made here and now my only response is to go to the Lord, our healer, and ask Him whom is our hope and the only Good Physician that I know. Your amen is heard even as you say it.

@Drew, You're tone in your last post changed remarkably so I thank God for what He is doing here. I've done enough harm for one thread so we can just leave it at that as we join to ask that Jesus be here with us as we continue the good fight together? Can a person who sometimes sounds like a Pharisee be saved? For God, nothing is impossible. I'd very much like to believe that your good heart is being misrepresented by your tongue but I don't know how to argue with you that well - it doesn't matter. You don't need my skill because Jesus serves that function for you. "Out of the same mouth ["mine", says Sparrow] proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet [water] and bitter?" - James 3:10-11 KJV It's okay for me to confess my sin before brothers and sisters that I trust sufficiently to understand that I do believe in the Love that the Lord has shown to me and that I'm saved. It's not okay for me to go around armed spiritually as I try to deal with my junk by inflicting it on others. That's why we are admonished to consider ourselves when we set out to help a brother or sister who we see caught in sin. I need to despise even the smell of the smoke from the fire that the sinner is being snatched from, right? Now that sounds like a hypocritical statement coming from a smoker if nothing else does but I'm really striving to speak about things that are higher than me in a manner that is acceptable to others. It's not right for me to forget God's command to take longsuffering (the ability to suffer wrongly is included) when I deal with others.

Drew? Every person here is committed to honoring the call and unction of the Holy Spirit, none have lived up to the goodness that causes Jesus to instruct, "Why call me good? Only God is good." That's something that is beyond me too but neither of us need to defend just as neither of us need to stand idle when we see others accused. Jesus provides the only right example when he did not struggle to defend himself but there is a great difference between the stature of that man and us. It's inspiring, when seen in the right light --that we are called and that although we don't know what we will be, we shall be like Him. I can never stop marveling at how the Lord chooses the beggerly elements of this world to better show the glory that belongs only to Him.

 

[reba]

Sure a pharisee can be saved.

Some times Sparrow when all we have are words and emotion-cons it can be hard to make a point and not have it misunderstood.

In a thread we all read the words but can each pull a different meaning. You did not necessarily 'lie' when calling another poster a pharisee that is what you saw. The other poster now haves some options... Go on like they never read your words... ask why you think that... reread their own posts a to see why some one else 'could ever get such an idea' The idea of pharisee was seen by more then yourself.

Some times criticism helps us to look at ourselves as in... WOW is that how i come across?....

Because of what i have read here, from one poster, the attitude i picked up ( not saying he was right or wrong) I wont bother to read any of his posts...I may miss some great points a good lesson.

You sir had nothing to do with my reading of these post accept to see you were painfully trying to bridge a gap you didn't dig.

 

[PraiseHimFirst]

I am sorry to jump on you, but this is an outrageous untruth. Have you no concern at all for the facts? Since I am pretty much the advocate for the "smoking is sin" position, I am confident this is directed at me.

So please - name the post by number - where did I write anything to the effect that smokers are "low class, disgusting people"?

The lack of respect for telling the truth around here is appallling.

I wasn't talking to you or anyone specifically.. if I were you would have been quoted in my post. I meant to say "people" not "you".

Thanks Reba =)

 

[Drew]

I wasn't talking to you or anyone specifically.. if I were you would have been quoted in my post. I meant to say "people" not "you".

Well its then unfortunate that such an innocent error occurred in the context of a thread where a number of posters have flat out lied - and continue to do so - about what has been going on in this thread.

But since, in your case at least, you did not intend to single me out, then there has simply been a misunderstanding between us. Sorry about that.

 

[PraiseHimFirst]

Well its then unfortunate that such an innocent error occurred in the context of a thread where a number of posters have flat out lied - and continue to do so - about what has been going on in this thread.

But since, in your case at least, you did not intend to single me out, then there has simply been a misunderstanding between us. Sorry about that.

That's fine. But while we're on the subject, I don't really see what you're getting all worked up about. People are free to believe what they wish. You can't change that. Why come here and call people liars? If you believe smoking is a sin, I accept that BUT I believe that judging people is a sin. You are judging people here and what they choose to believe and calling them liars. Why don't you just drop it and if you think it's wrong, PRAY for those that smoke, but also remember that it is their CHOICE to "sin" (smoke) and you can't do anything about it. People believe differently, there is really no reason to argue who is right or wrong..