Cigarette Smoking Christians

[jasoncran]

locked,the two parties could have settled this via pm.

 

[Nick]

I'm re-opening this thread. Let's keep this civil, and on the topic of cigarettes and Christian behaviour.

Further off-topic posts or sniping at one another will result in disciplinary actions being taken.

 

[Drew]

Here is what I believe to be a Biblically grounded argument that smoking is indeed sin. Please tell me at what point or points this argument is not correct:

1. The kingdom of God has already been initiated;

2. We, the church are to be agents working to implement that kingdom;

3. One goal of the Kingdom of God is that human beings experience physical healing - yes, we all die, that not's the point - we are to follow Jesus' healing model all the same. The kingdom is growing, but will only be perfected in the future so the argument "we all die so how can God be trying to heal the world be true" fails;

4. Smoking only harms the body (it does other bad things like cost $$, but we'll let that pass);

5. Therefore, smoking is in direct opposition to the kingdom imperative to heal.

6. Therefore, smoking is sin.

 

[Sparkey]

Here is what I believe to be a Biblically grounded argument that smoking is indeed sin. Please tell me at what point or points this argument is not correct:

1. The kingdom of God has already been initiated;

2. We, the church are to be agents working to implement that kingdom;

3. One goal of the Kingdom of God is that human beings experience physical healing - yes, we all die, that not's the point - we are to follow Jesus' healing model all the same. The kingdom is growing, but will only be perfected in the future so the argument "we all die so how can God be trying to heal the world be true" fails;

4. Smoking only harms the body (it does other bad things like cost $$, but we'll let that pass);

5. Therefore, smoking is in direct opposition to the kingdom imperative to heal.

6. Therefore, smoking is sin.

Drew,

You've asked that others tell you at which point or points your argument is incorrect. It isn't, as far as it goes. When we consider your carefully constructed argument (as stated) there is no point of failure.

BUT, and this is a big but -- your argument omits something that is vital to the healing and restoration that God plans for us. When we consider all of His plan, and compare it to what you have presented, your argument comes up lacking. Since you have specifically asked that I describe the fault and flaw WITHIN your arugment and have not asked anybody to tell you plainly what's wrong with what you're saying, I can only assume that you won't listen to my reply.

Cordially,
Sparrow

 

[Drew]

Drew,

You've asked that others tell you at which point or points your argument is incorrect. It isn't, as far as it goes. When we consider your carefully constructed argument (as stated) there is no point of failure.

BUT, and this is a big but -- your argument omits something that is vital to the healing and restoration that God plans for us. When we consider all of His plan, and compare it to what you have presented, your argument comes up lacking. Since you have specifically asked that I describe the fault and flaw WITHIN your arugment and have not asked anybody to tell you plainly what's wrong with what you're saying, I can only assume that you won't listen to my reply.

Cordially,
Sparrow

I am willing to listen to any reply that deals with the issue and does not get personal. So please, tell us, where is the flaw in the argument. I trust we agree that if the argument is correct, then the conclusion is inescapable. So, in order for smoking to not always be sin, there must be at least some error in the argument. I am more than willing to entertain your ideas about where there is an error.

You seem to think there is an error of omission. Please tell me specifically what I have overlooked.

 

[reba]

Calling other folks trolls is not personal? LOL


What a gas this is ....

 

[farouk]

Calling other folks trolls is not personal? LOL


What a gas this is ....

reba:

Did you see the pipe smoking thread that is now also live, by the way?

Do you have any particular observation about pipe smoke as opposed to cigarette smoke?

 

[Mike]

3. One goal of the Kingdom of God is that human beings experience physical healing - yes, we all die, that not's the point - we are to follow Jesus' healing model all the same. The kingdom is growing, but will only be perfected in the future so the argument "we all die so how can God be trying to heal the world be true" fails;

Drew, I appreciate your practical approach with this post. I'll try to be equally as practical, and we'll see where this leads.

I am seeing a disconnect in your third point. Most people have 1 Cor 13:16-17 in mind when they pose the "your body is a temple" premise.

1 Cor 13
" <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28427">16</sup> Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28428">17</sup> If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple."

When I read the context of these verses, I see this chapter speaking to "spiritual destruction". Leading up to these verses, Paul seems clearly to be speaking to the corruption brought upon by false beliefs and not growing spiritually in the Lord. Jesus was always focused on the spiritual/lasting as opposed to the physical/temporal whether He was speaking of being fed or seeking riches. I do believe I read somewhere that you're not sure our bodies will be perfected when we are resurrected. I believe they will. Perfect Healing in every sense will be brought upon us when we are resurrected in spirit and in flesh.

You asked where I can see a flaw in the flow of your argument. I'm just saying where I see it. There are many things people do that aren't beneficial to our bodies, but I believe the Lord Desires spiritual health, and this is where our victory is. Yes, smoking can be a sin when a person is convicted to stop but refuses. But, IMO, using this argument to say that smoking is always a sin all the time for the reasons you state is in error. I believe a person who smokes (and not refusing to obey being lead to stop) and loves the Lord, putting his/her faith in Christ is in pretty good shape, spiritually if not physically.

 

[Drew]

Jesus was always focused on the spiritual/lasting as opposed to the physical/temporal whether He was speaking of being fed or seeking riches.

I do not agree - can you make any kind of a Biblical case for this? I doubt that you will. When Jesus said the Kingdom of God was here, He meant it in every sense, including the "physical". The Kingdom of God is not understood if we think that it does not include working to ensure that the poor have food in their stomachs, or when we do not respect the "goodness" of the physical world that God has created.

I politely suggest that you, like probably most, are unwittingly buying into Greek dualistic thinking that is so dominant in the post-enlightenment west. It was the Greeks, not the Jews (who wrote the Bible for the most part) who embraced this "physical - spiritual" split. Paul certainly did not. In 1 Corinthians 15 he refers to a "spiritual body" in a context where is otherwise abundantly clear that he is referring to a body that is indeed physical.

I do believe I read somewhere that you're not sure our bodies will be perfected when we are resurrected. I believe they will. Perfect Healing in every sense will be brought upon us when we are resurrected in spirit and in flesh.

We agree.

You asked where I can see a flaw in the flow of your argument. I'm just saying where I see it. There are many things people do that aren't beneficial to our bodies, but I believe the Lord Desires spiritual health, and this is where our victory is.

Again, I see no evidence for this distinction - for the notion that God sees the world in terms of these two categories of things: "spiritual" and "physical". But, in any event, even if you are right, how can you deny that the physical body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? Do you really deny this? And if it is, how can damaging the house of the Holy Spirit unnecessarily not be sin?

Yes, smoking can be a sin when a person is convicted to stop but refuses.

I trust you understand that I do not think this a correct position. If I am right that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and that God cares about restoring the world in all ways, not just "spiritually" (effectively your term, not mine), then damaging the body is "sin" whether or not the person who is damaging their body understands this or not.

This "its only sin if I am convicted" position strikes me as exceedingly dangerous.

But, at the end of the day, I think the big problem is people failing to see the Biblical truth that God is in the business of restoring all aspects of His world.

He made the world and declared His creation to be very good. And there are many prophecies that speak of the healing of the physical world. I suggest that the Biblical evidence is clear: God wants to heal all His creation - He is not "forgetting" the physical and concentrating on the "spiritual".

When Jesus healed people, He healed them, yes, of their physical infirmities (if not of their "spiritual" problems to use a term I do not like but use since you use it). Are we not to follow this example. Let's be clear, what is the following text not about if not the restoration and healing of the physical world:

For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-28137>20</SUP> For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-28138>21</SUP> that<SUP class=footnote value='[h]'>[h]</SUP> the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

 

[farouk]

The issue is moral commitment to moderation.

This is certainly Biblical.

Fact is that before the American Civil War it was very common for women to smoke after attending a church service. In saying that sin is always involved in smoking, period, is to superimpose retrospectively a fundamentalist culture on a previous era. I guess a similar comment could be made about today.

PS: On another thread, someone suggested that many years ago in some places it was considered a sin even to pierce one little hole in an earlobe. (What about today??!! )

 

[Drew]

The issue is moral commitment to moderation.

I doubt it very much.

Is it OK to be moderate in theft?

Is it OK to be moderate in lying?

Is it OK to eat just a little fiberglass, if that's what you like to do?

Now if you guys (and I am not directing this specifically at you farouk) get any enjoyment from knowing that you are frustrating me, then this will give you great pleasure indeed: When people post that something is not sin specifically because there is no terse "thou shalt not..." rule against it in the Bible, I really want to smash my face into my computer screen.

For the life of me, I cannot understand such thinking. Do you really believe that something has to be explicitly prohibited in the scripture to be sin? There is no 'rule' against pulling down your friend's pants in public and exposing him (now I'll bet one of you will find such a rule somewhere in the Bible) for laughs. Is that not sin? There is probably no rule in the Bible about many things that we all would agree are sinful, yes even in moderation.

Is moderate eating of carpentry nails acceptable? Why not?

Fact is that before the American Civil War it was very common for women to smoke after attending a church service. In saying that sin is always involved in smoking, period, is to superimpose retrospectively a fundamentalist culture on a previous era. I guess a similar comment could be made about today.

I do not understand your point. I have repeatedly provided a very specific argument about why smoking is sin - I am certainly no fundamentalist.

PS: On another thread, someone suggested that many years ago in some places it was considered a sin even to pierce one little hole in an earlobe. (What about today??!! )

This is different, of course. Its easy to make the case that smoking is sin - it does nothing good and damages God's beloved creation (you, the smoker). An earring effectively does no damage at all.

 

[farouk]

Drew:

You seem to have tried to debunk the idea of moderation.

In fact Paul commends moderation; see Philippians 4.

In any case, I never compared smoking with lying; I never compared smoking with stealing.

I'm sorry you are frustrated. But no need to vent your frustration on ppl and ideas which have nothing to do with them.

God bless you, friend.

 

[Drew]

Drew:

You seem to have tried to debunk the idea of moderation.

I have, of course, done no such thing.

What I have done is to debunk that its ok to sin in moderation. As if that really needed to be debunked.

I'm sorry you are frustrated. But no need to vent your frustration on ppl and ideas which have nothing to do with them.

God bless you, friend.

I appreciate your general demeanour and I wish God's blessing on you as well.

 

[Free]

1 Cor 6:19-20, 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.(ESV)

Although this is regarding sexual immorality in particular, I'm certain that some more general principles could be derived from it. In light of that, I don't see how one could even argue to moderation.

 

[Sparkey]

I am willing to listen to any reply that deals with the issue and does not get personal. So please, tell us, where is the flaw in the argument. I trust we agree that if the argument is correct, then the conclusion is inescapable. So, in order for smoking to not always be sin, there must be at least some error in the argument. I am more than willing to entertain your ideas about where there is an error.

You seem to think there is an error of omission. Please tell me specifically what I have overlooked.

You've hit the nail on the head there. Yes. An error of omission. If you went to the doctor (who is in the business of healing) and he gave you a diagnosis -- would you be satisified? Repeating what God has said about lying does nothing to heal a liar. If God has pledged to write His law into the hearts of His children, how does your diagnosis (true or not) help a sinner? You already understand that knowledge itself is insufficient and simple knowledge omits any good coming from it. That is the problem with the law. The law is good, but it can not heal. The old testament and the law of moses is good, I'm not saying that it is bad. It falls short of what God wants for us. So does your message as far as it goes.

With very little trouble (by including text that sends a message of hope) my thought would be that the things you're getting tired of hearing would be eliminated. Remember, if you will, the title of this thread is "Cigarette Smoking Christians," meaning we are discussing Christians, not cigarettes. It is a subtle difference. Drawing the distinction into your message would make a big difference in the percieved tone of your message. Even a simple "PS - There is hope for smokers. --PM if you'd like to discuss further," would suffice.

Now that I've got that out and I hope it is well recieved in the spirit intended, let me be bold and continue because there is one more aspect that I am also guilty of when I write that I'd like to point out. When we assume an automatic defensive response to our writing we risk alienating others. So if I were to assume that you were automatically and intractably opposed to my message (doesn't matter really if I'm right or wrong in my assumption) -- I risk alienating you. We've all experienced it. We come off "preachy" when we wanna be "teachy". Maybe that's not the way it works with you but even in your reply (quoted above) you will agree that your assumption that I want to oppose your statement that smoking is sin is present. If you recall, it was my earlier point that all sin is exceedingly sinful in that it puts a uncrossable gap between us and God. Lying to myself about smoking is also sin. Lying about me by saying or presuming that I believe smoking to be perfectly fine puts unnecessary interference into the message of healing that I presume you wish to send.

The matter of binding the tongue to the purpose of God is a large and enveloping concept to the degree that James boldly declares that any man who does not bridle his tongue has a flawed religion. I might quip that the fire you have started is worse in my sight than the symbolic harm to the temple of God my cigarette flame ignites. That is NOT my conclusion about you, if it were and I thought that you were not worth arguing with or for, I would just shug my shoulders and walk away. That's the same thing I expect from you toward me, if the tables were turned. It is only by the Spirit that we are able to accomplish the purpose of the Spirit and Drew, I would like to take a moment and thank you personally for prayers offered for me. Thank you. You are speaking to a man, a sinner --convinced that he can not make it alone. Pardon me please for misjudging you earlier.

 

[Lehigh3]

No, smoking is NOT a sin. Moderation has nothing to do with smoking. No, I shouldn't say that- I know as a nurse that whether one gets cancer or not - certainly has to do with how much they smoke- even more than how long.
We have to eat but overeating is certainly something bad for your health. Whether one is a glutton or not- they should examine their selves & not be stared at by hyper-religious folks who are lousy fruit pickers!

Taking medication is not a sin either. It's your personal business. Give thanks in everything.
Praise God!

People can stop smoking when they really want to. Once you wean off the nicotine, the urges will end eventually (in about 6 months)
Don't wait till they are cutting you from ear to ear & taking out your voice box.View attachment 1824

 

[Elijah674]

No, smoking is NOT a sin. Moderation has nothing to do with smoking. No, I shouldn't say that- I know as a nurse that whether one gets cancer or not - certainly has to do with how much they smoke- even more than how long.
We have to eat but overeating is certainly something bad for your health. Whether one is a glutton or not- they should examine their selves & not be stared at by hyper-religious folks who are lousy fruit pickers!

Taking medication is not a sin either. It's your personal business. Give thanks in everything.
Praise God!

People can stop smoking when they really want to. Once you wean off the nicotine, the urges will end eventually (in about 6 months)
Don't wait till they are cutting you from ear to ear & taking out your voice box.View attachment 2041

'p'raise 'g'od & pass me more of satans cancer killers, huh?? [SICK POST!] And Rev. 18:4?? Nevermind!

--Elijah

 

[Lehigh3]

Elijah 674,

spoken like a true scholar once again.

 

[reba]

reba:

Did you see the pipe smoking thread that is now also live, by the way?

Do you have any particular observation about pipe smoke as opposed to cigarette smoke?

Pipes do most often smell better. I dont like the whole idea of smoking. If a person can avoid the dumb things, cigarettes and pipes, tobacco in general, that would be good! I have my faults and and my additions as i am sure most others do... i need to work on the beam in my eye

 

[Drew]

You've hit the nail on the head there. Yes. An error of omission.If you went to the doctor (who is in the business of healing) and he gave you a diagnosis -- would you be satisified? Repeating what God has said about lying does nothing to heal a liar. If God has pledged to write His law into the hearts of His children, how does your diagnosis (true or not) help a sinner? You already understand that knowledge itself is insufficient and simple knowledge omits any good coming from it. That is the problem with the law. The law is good, but it can not heal. The old testament and the law of moses is good, I'm not saying that it is bad. It falls short of what God wants for us. So does your message as far as it goes.

I have no idea what you are saying here.

Pardon me please for misjudging you earlier.

I appreciate that. I still do not see what the specific omission is in my argument. By the way, just because you struggle with smoking doesn't mean that I don't struggle with other things. I guess people who smoke feel "hurt" when I assert they are sinning. I think I have said a number of times that I believe smoking to be an addiction, and that smokers need our support and empathy. I apologize if I am not offering adequate empathy.