Clear examples of false belief in John & Epistles...?

[cyberjosh]

Ok Francis, we are getting much closer to ap oint of agreement and understanding. I'm glad. However let note a few remaining points which we also need to work out.

Those who have the Spirit of God abiding in them must CONTINUE to have the Spirit abiding within them.

Absolutely, no doubt about it. And is is done to remain in the covering of Jesus. Ultimately it is only Jesus' covering that gains us our salvation, our part merely lies within the realm of our responsibility to follow Christ in order to allow him to cover us, by not apostacising. It is not our persevereance that "earns" us our right to salvation, but rather God's unmerited gracious gift of salvation which covers us as long as we are in a relationship with him (which requires on our part persevring). We will recieve personal rewards for our good works and for persevering but salvation is not one of them. That is wholely the gracious work of God, and I know that you know that.

Any subsequent absence means that the initial "covering" was deemed as cast aside by the individual.

Right, and I elaborated in that position above (us having to remain under the realm of his influence so that he can continue to cover us - and that covering not by any merit of our own, of course). Thus the covering becomes of central importance while we "simply" (in the sense of our simple devotion to Christ - 2 Corinthians 11:3) devote ourselves to Christ and allow him to bring us closer by his power and his grace while we maintain our faith in him by which he has the power to keep us (1 Peter 1:5) if we do not cast him off. But the covering is the only hope we have of being saved. That was my simple point, though no doubt we can cast it off.

Thus, when we "put on Christ", we grow in faith, virtue, hope and charity. When we choose not to put on Christ, that same person falters in faith, virtue, hope and charity. There is not a second person or being inside of us that endures the negative aspects of our choosing of the flesh.

But wait, perhaps you are mixing up your terminology, but since you admitted that our new man and Christ are one & the same then you would be saying that Christ falters with us. This is inconcievable, and also why I emphasised earlier why I thought the new nature (our - personal - new nature, our "new man") was undefiled, why else would we put it on if the new nature can be defiled as well, that defeats the purpose of putting on our new nature. If I falter in faith (by puting on the "old man" - the flesh), Christ does not, thus there is an opposition: "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another (Galatians 5:17). So I actually am having a difficult time seeing how there aren't two contrary natures in us. Its not like every time we falter our "new man" leaves us.

Note the example I gave in one of my longer posts above:

"Its not like if you back slide one night and go out and get drunk at a bar that Jesus says, "Oop, he's dabbling in sin, I disown him, he is no longer in me, so I will take away his new nature until he repents". No! The new nature, like the indwelling Spirit is there to stay as a default (with the only - often rare - exeption being apostacy)" [which would be a final and decisive casting of our our new man - but the new man (like the Spirit - would not leave us prior to a complete, and absolute eviction].

So what do you make of this?

If I falter, I become a slave to sin - not just part of me.

The Galatian did begin to "enslave themselves again to the law", however this does not mean that Christ had left the, they were merely burderning themselves with extra observances of the law and failing to utilize grace. Paul warned them about their doing for the explicit purpose of turning them from the road they were headed down, because there was still hope (I do not belive they had yet commited apostacy - though they were headed that direction - thus why Paul wrote to them). And let us not forget that God is not completely idle in the Christian life - he can intervene to a degree. Hebrews says that he will chastize those who are his, and God will certainly battle for your affections, so its not a sudden, flippant "one day I'll serve sin the other I'll serve God", for no man can serve two masters simultaneously, even God's children can be led astray for a period but they are still under God's protection and still his child until you apostacise. So I may fall into sin from time to time but I most certainly do not become its slave as I was before I was saved, because I have not forsaken Christ.

Putting on Christ and putting on the new man are synonymous terms. Christ IS the new man, the Second Adam.

Well there can be a slight distinction that our new man is of Christ, and in Christ but distinctly ours, because it becomes part of us - only because of Christ's indwelling. None the less it is a nature in us, and is part of us, thus why I begged the question above of how it could falter with the rest of "us".

P.S. I hope you see where my genuine concerns and questions lie now. I really want to get an understanding of this.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[TanNinety]

Quick review on what I read so far.

cybershark – I think you are running too far with the idea of ‘new man’ to the point of being Gnostic about it. Or it could be me that is not taking the idea far enough as you are.

Now you have to understand what Paul did.
1 Corinthians 9:21-22 When I am with the Gentiles who are without law, I fit in with them as much as I can. In this way, I gain their confidence and bring them to Christ. But I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ. When I am with those who are oppressed, I share their oppression so that I might bring them to Christ. Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone so that I might bring them to Christ.

IMO, you are taking the ‘new man’ of Paul’s teaching to the point that Gnostics would love to endorse. You have created thus an ‘untouchable’ man living inside an exterior sinful man. This untouchable man is the salvation man and is waiting on birthing out of the sinful man. I have read some Gnostic writings and that is what it is.

Lets look at the problems this creates. You say this new man is in the past tense of creation and is ‘completed’ new man. When flesh sins this new man is untouched by that sin. Now by this reasoning, if the new man cannot be touched by sin what worry/warning/exhortation does one need to live a sinless life? If the new man is the one entering into kingdom of God then it does not matter what the flesh does because according to you Christ is not justifying flesh but the new man.

Let us suppose a person commits apostasy after the new man is completely created. What happens to this new man then? Or are you saying it is impossible for this new man to commit apostasy? If so, this is utterly OSAS.

As francis, pointed out earlier, are we judged in parts or as a whole? If in parts, then the new man cannot be touched by sin, so it does not matter how worse of a sinner we are we can always enter into kingdom of God. If as a whole, then it doesn’t matter how untouchable this new man is, if the flesh sins the new man is going to be denied entrance into the kingdom of God. And only one of the above is right.

New man is the new nature that you have found in Christ. You either follow the nature of Christ or the nature of Adam the old man. Follow Christ and the holy spirits abides in you thus enabling you to walk more in Christ and become more like Him. But stray away and the holy spirit will bring to your remembrance the things of Christ. Continue straying away and the holy spirit will depart from you. Hence the warnings, hence the exhortation to abide and endure and fight the good fight and run the race set in front of us.

Paul tried to be all things to all men. Gnostics could relate to the “new man†in Christ preaching. That doesn’t endorse the view that you are trying to ascribe to which swings it entirely into the Gnostic teachings of a sinless untouchable man residing inside sinful flesh.

 

[cyberjosh]

Yes I realize it seems to be approaching some form of (Gnostic) dualism, however people have also accused the Apostle Paul of promoting dualism in Romans 7, yet he is not. I'm trying to understand this along the lines of what Paul said in Romans 7 in relation to the new man.

Now what you said about if the new man was undefiled - if part of us - it would become a form of (free ticket for) OSAS, yes you would be correct if that were the case - however this is not the position I was trying to take. My objection to francis several pages back when I was trying to understand how you could loose your salvation I gave the defense that if the Holy Spirit left us we would die spiritually (cease to exist), because our life (the life of our "new man") is defined inside Christ [in Christ - Paul's favorite phrase], thus surely outside Christ the new man would "die" or be seperated from us. It is evident that Christ (whom we are a new creation in) is our life "To live is Christ, and to die is gain." Thus if you sin to the point of apostacy, you are no longer in Christ, then surely the "new man" dies or seperates from you.


I don't know the proper terminology without sounding Gnostic like you point out, however I am repulsed by Gnostic teachings so if you can help me clear this up I would appreciate it. Do you not see my point atleast though - where I am coming from? The "new man" must be able to die or be seperated from us if we apostacize - in my understanding, else yes we would get a free ticket to heaven - which is obviously not true.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[TanNinety]

A quick note regarding your last post cyber. Just like francis and I do not see salvation as a one time event, we (I am assuming francis too) do not see the departing of the holy spirit as a one time event. The more you yield to the holy spirit the more the effects of the spirit you see, the lesser you yield the quieter the voice of the spirit gets towards eventually where you do not hear the holy spirit. This is not a one time occurrence of, “oh you sinned, I am departing from youâ€Â. But, “oh you sinned, here is a reminder, repent and change your ways†..â€Âyou sinned again, haven’t repented, did not turn away from sin†..â€Âyou sinned, did not turn away from sin, don’t even have the desire to turn away from sin†..that is when one learns to put a mute on the voice of the holy spirit. At this point is when the holy spirit leaves from abiding in a person. Not a one time event but as the person develops his nature either in Christ or in Adam.

Just because some made it through the red sea doesn’t mean they didn’t perish in the desert before reaching the promise land. And just because some make it through the red sea in Christ doesn’t mean those won’t perish in the desert of life. The old testament is a foreshadow of new testament. The exodus of Israel from Egypt to the promise land is the foreshadow of exodus of Christians from the kingdom of the world into the kingdom of God. This does foreshadow the slipping and sliding away likewise.

 

[cyberjosh]

I replied to you Tan, if you would like to see an elaboration on what I am getting at. I would appreciate a candid response. Thanks.


God Bless,

~Josh

 

[jgredline]

Josh
I love you avatar...Its quite the cool one.... 8-)
Sorry to sidetrack....

This is a cool thread to sit back and read....carry on.

 

[golfjack]

reply

How many sins does one have to commit to lose salvation? What kind of sins? Who determines this? What is an act of sin compared to sin that is not in ones spirit? What does conscience mean? Who convicts a believer of sin, the Holy Spirit or our conscience? I believe one must answer these questions to determine what it means to lose one's salvation. Also, what about ignorant or baby Christians? Do we have the mind of Christ in our hearts? Are we did to sin or not? Are we complete in Christ and what is the complete? This debate could be settled quickly if we realize the sin that can make us lose salvation is the unpardonable sin. You guys are going off and in all kinds of directions and coming up with confusing doctrines.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh
I love you avatar...Its quite the cool one....

Thanks! I actually made it myself... I'm so proud of it.

I am taking a digital art class at my College this semester and we are using Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator to create graphics. I got a picture of a menorah and wrote the name of the Holy Spirit, letter-by-letter, in each flame of the menorah (it fit perfectly too - exactly seven letters in the Hebrew version of "Ruach Ha'qodesh"!) and above it I put Yeshua & Yahweh. Then I put the "Triquetra" (the symbol of the Trinity) behind all of it. I have a larger version of the picture which above all that says "The Holy Trinity" (in pretty colors), but when I put it into thumbnail view it made all the other letters too small to read so I stuck with my smaller one for clarity. I can email you the two full-size versions of the images if you like. They look really cool. Just PM me your e-mail address.


P.S. Sorry to digress the thread also. I'm awaiting a reply from TanNinety.

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

How many sins does one have to commit to lose salvation?


May God bless, Golfjack

One sin if your not saved by the blood of the lamb....Who is the Lamb? Jesus...Who is Jesus? He is God....For only God can atone for sin....

 

[golfjack]

reply

Jg. Your statement goes without saying. But you are taloking about an unbeliever. So, Can a believer lose their salvation? If so, supply scriptural support for this view.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

Jg. Your statement goes without saying. But you are taloking about an unbeliever. So, Can a believer lose their salvation? If so, supply scriptural support for this view.



May God bless, Golfjack

My bad Jack, your right. Your post was directed to believers....
I do not know of a single scripture that says one can loose his salvation....Perhaps somebody else knows one....

I can come up with plenty of scripture that teaches that A believer can't loose his salvation.

 

[TanNinety]

For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

At this point we need to consider if Paul was ‘saved’ or not. Assuming that you agree that Paul indeed had partaken in the ‘new man’ in Christ I will continue. Now when you partake in this ‘new man’ in Christ there is not two men living in you but one ‘new man’ who is in the process of being perfected. In front of this ‘new man’ are two natures that he can follow. The nature of Adam or the nature of Christ. When Paul said the above, it is in his new creation that he found the difficulty in wanting do one thing but finding himself doing something else.

And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

In his new creation he can see when he does things he does not want to do, the purpose of the law and why it was setup that way. His new creation is in agreement with the law and the purpose it served.

it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me

That by itself is Gnostic. But Paul does not let these sentences stand on their own and we need to look at how he explains them.

in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Sin and good are desires of the heart.

For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to doâ€â€this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

At this point we should be going, WOAH duuude! Back the Gnostic mobile up a bit,
that is if we do not move on to chapter 8.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

HOW?

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;

The ‘I’ in Romans 7 is the ‘new man’ the ‘sin’ living in him is the ‘mind’. Now if you can get this mind to listen to the spirit and be controlled by the spirit then your ‘new man’ walks and partakes in the things of the spirit. When you put on Christ you haven’t went through a mind wipe. You are still very much subject to the same sin that has always lingered in your mind. This sin that is living in your mind is what causes you to war with the ‘new man’ that wants to be controlled by the spirit. So ‘sin’ is not a Gnostic entity living inside you that exists on its own making you sin but the nature of sinfulness that plagues your mind.

Now when we understand that there are not two men inside us at war but one new man and two natures – one old mindful fleshly nature and another new spirit controlled nature at war, then we can understand the choices that the new man has to endure so he cannot one day find himself outside of Christ.

It is not just apostasy that causes you to be outside of Christ. People who are calling Christ, “Lord, Lord†are some of the ones hearing a resounding “depart from Me, you who work lawlessnessâ€Â. Not abiding by the law of the spirit is as good s being an apostate.

The struggle in Romans 7 is not Paul endorsing, “we are weak in sin and we cannot do goodâ€Â, but explaining how we can overcome this struggle in the very next chapter by being controlled by the holy spirit.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

My bad Jack, your right. Your post was directed to believers....
I do not know of a single scripture that says one can loose his salvation....Perhaps somebody else knows one....

I can come up with plenty of scripture that teaches that A believer can't loose his salvation.

Javier,

There is a caveat that one should add to that statement...

A FAITHFUL believer cannot lose his salvation. That indicates that one is TODAY walking in faith. Not last year. But today. Currently. How is our relationship with God now. Thus, if one is a current believer and is faithful to God, then your statement is agreeable.

Of course, this is a tricky way of putting things - as a person is not necessarily a "once a believer always a believer"!

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

TanNinety & Fancis,

I replied to your post(s) on the last page (respectively). I would appreciate it if you could look at them.

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

Ultimately it is only Jesus' covering that gains us our salvation, our part merely lies within the realm of our responsibility to follow Christ in order to allow him to cover us, by not apostacising. It is not our persevereance that "earns" us our right to salvation, but rather God's unmerited gracious gift of salvation which covers us as long as we are in a relationship with him (which requires on our part persevring). We will recieve personal rewards for our good works and for persevering but salvation is not one of them. That is wholely the gracious work of God, and I know that you know that.

I am not comfortable with the term "Jesus' covering" gaining us salvation. That is too close to the dreaded "imputed justification" that denies that the Christian really does change and transform as He puts on the attitude of Christ - moved by the Spirit, of course. I agree that our perseverance does not earn us anything. Nothing we do can earn us anything in the strict sense of the word. However, IF God is righteous, and we recognize that God has promised a reward to those who obey His commandments (based on the idea that God gives us the ability to do so - not of our own abilities), then in a secondary sense, we can say we do merit salvation. It is a sticky sitaution to explain without sounding like we earn heaven.

Here is the difference.

When I work at my job, my boss owes me a paycheck. In the strict sense of the word, I merit payment. We can never merit anything from God at this level. However, when if my boss asks me to help him on the weekend to move some furniture? It is off the clock and I cannot earn a paycheck then. However, my boss is a good guy and I "know" he will reward me for my trouble. In this sense, I have "merited" a reward, but this is based on the goodness of my boss, not a legal demand that I place on my boss. Catholics believe in this "secondary" merit and believe this is found in Scriptures. I hope I have explained this so you can understand the differences. That is how we look at rewards. They are based on the righteousness of God the gracious Giver.

Thus the covering becomes of central importance while we "simply" (in the sense of our simple devotion to Christ - 2 Corinthians 11:3) devote ourselves to Christ and allow him to bring us closer by his power and his grace while we maintain our faith in him by which he has the power to keep us (1 Peter 1:5) if we do not cast him off. But the covering is the only hope we have of being saved. That was my simple point, though no doubt we can cast it off.

It is important to realize that we CAN cast off our salvation and we CAN "return to the vomit" of our former lives, as Peter so vividly puts it. As such, I will with St. Augustine say "God does not save us without us." Christ is our only hope. Without Him, we don't have a chance. He said we can do nothing [good] without Him. I will extend that into time and the Old Testament, as well. Given that some Christians will NOT inherit the Kingdom because of particularly heinous crimes, it is certain that we CAN grieve the Holy Spirit.

since you admitted that our new man and Christ are one & the same then you would be saying that Christ falters with us. This is inconcievable, and also why I emphasised earlier why I thought the new nature (our - personal - new nature, our "new man") was undefiled, why else would we put it on if the new nature can be defiled as well, that defeats the purpose of putting on our new nature.

Again, the new man is not an irreversible and ontological covering placed over us that gives us free reign to do what we want, since "Christ covers us". The new man is the result of putting on Christ. But do we ALWAYS and DAILY CHOOSE the new man? I would like to admit that I do not. I still continue to sin. Daily. The closer we are to God, the more we see how holy God is and how much we are not - and this takes into account this "new man" that we are becoming but has not yet been realized. Thus, when I choose sin, when I choose slavery, when I choose death (spiritual), am I putting on Christ at that moment? Am I utilizing my "new nature"? And is Christ then defiled as a result? Of course not. When I sin, it is I who sin, not Christ. Since 1 John says we still sin (and are liars if we deny that), then to say that we have ontologically changed to some new "Christ nature" would be the same as saying that Christ sins. Unthinkable! I believe that we are transforming into something else that is not realized yet - into an alter Christus. But when we falter, we are reverting to the fallen nature - it is not Christ Himself who is faltering.

Its not like if you back slide one night and go out and get drunk at a bar that Jesus says, "Oop, he's dabbling in sin, I disown him, he is no longer in me, so I will take away his new nature until he repents". No! The new nature, like the indwelling Spirit is there to stay as a default (with the only - often rare - exeption being apostacy)" [which would be a final and decisive casting of our our new man - but the new man (like the Spirit - would not leave us prior to a complete, and absolute eviction].

I continue to disagree with your appropriation of the CONTINUOUS indwelling of the Spirit in the Church community to the individual. The Spirit is not active in a person who is willfully sinning. By his fruits, he is known! WHAT is known? That the Spirit is absent. This doesn't mean that the Spirit will permanently leave. God will gently call His lost sheep back to the fold. You are correct that some virtue remains after sin. That is the effect of the Spirit BEFORE the terrible sin. Virtue and vices are not defeated overnight. Virtue is a habitual act of goodness. Thus, if the Spirit has been developing the "new nature" within a man, this work will not be overthrown in one fell swoop. That is why a seasoned Christian will more quickly be aware of a serious sin and repent of that sin. He has been a work in progress in Christ.

The Galatian did begin to "enslave themselves again to the law", however this does not mean that Christ had left the, they were merely burderning themselves with extra observances of the law and failing to utilize grace.

We are talking about more than "adding" to the requirements of salvation. We are talking about doing something that results in the lose of our inheritance to the Kingdom, as Galatians 5 relates.

Well there can be a slight distinction that our new man is of Christ, and in Christ but distinctly ours, because it becomes part of us - only because of Christ's indwelling. None the less it is a nature in us, and is part of us, thus why I begged the question above of how it could falter with the rest of "us".

Mysteriously, since we are part of the Body of Christ, we are part of Christ, so this is acceptable to a degree. But this relationship to the Body, to Christ. Can you explain which part of us will be cast into hell for the sins of the "flesh" and which part of our self will enter heaven, since - as you say - we are now Christ?

We don't become the essence of Christ. We are adopted sons, not natural ones. When we falter, it is we, not Christ, who falters. When we are good, it is Christ abiding in me that enables ME to be good, holy, and loving. Thus, I will be judged positively because of Christ's work within me.

Regards

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

Javier,

There is a caveat that one should add to that statement...

A FAITHFUL believer cannot lose his salvation. That indicates that one is TODAY walking in faith. Not last year. But today. Currently. How is our relationship with God now. Thus, if one is a current believer and is faithful to God, then your statement is agreeable.

Of course, this is a tricky way of putting things - as a person is not necessarily a "once a believer always a believer"!

Regards

Joe,

I used to believe, in fact for most of my life that one can loose his salvation, but as I got deeper and deeper into theology and most importantly the word of God, and truly learned what it means to be'' justified''....I changed my mind...Now let me try to explain this with out writing a 6 page post...I believe you will agree with me....Now I know I don't need to get into lots of definitions and even though your Catholic and I am a Protestant our theology in the fundamentals is pretty close...

First let me say that I am neither a Calvinist or an Armenianist...But I am a ''Calminianist''....I believe that both Calvinism and Armenianism have problems and that the truth is in the middle...When It comes to Salvation, I believe that Calvininism has it right....Now I will try and explain.....


When I got saved, I was ''justified''....meaning I was no longer under condemnation...But was sealed by the Holy Spirit....I attained my salvation by Grace through faith alone....I did nothing to earn this gift of salvation...Since it was a Gift and God is not one to take back what he has given, it is mine....The Holy Spirit will see that I persevere in my walk through life, for it is the Holy Spirit who has sealed me at Justification....Now here is the ''key''.....Truly I am not saved while I am walking on this earth with this fleshly body....For I will not be glorified until I am dead...When I am dead, then I am truly saved as I have persevered.....

Joe
Now this is the way I view ''you'' based on what I have read from your post....I see you in the position as I see me....There is no dought in my mind that you are saved and you will persevere.....Now you may not view yourself this way but the fact is this. If your are truly a child of God, you will persevere because you are not doing it on your strength, but by the Holy Spirit....

I hope this clears up my position a little...

 

[Solo]

Re: reply

Joe,

I used to believe, in fact for most of my life that one can loose his salvation, but as I got deeper and deeper into theology and most importantly the word of God, and truly learned what it means to be'' justified''....I changed my mind...Now let me try to explain this with out writing a 6 page post...I believe you will agree with me....Now I know I don't need to get into lots of definitions and even though your Catholic and I am a Protestant our theology in the fundamentals is pretty close...

First let me say that I am neither a Calvinist or an Armenianist...But I am a ''Calminianist''....I believe that both Calvinism and Armenianism have problems and that the truth is in the middle...When It comes to Salvation, I believe that Calvininism has it right....Now I will try and explain.....


When I got saved, I was ''justified''....meaning I was no longer under condemnation...But was sealed by the Holy Spirit....I attained my salvation by Grace through faith alone....I did nothing to earn this gift of salvation...Since it was a Gift and God is not one to take back what he has given, it is mine....The Holy Spirit will see that I persevere in my walk through life, for it is the Holy Spirit who has sealed me at Justification....Now here is the ''key''.....Truly I am not saved while I am walking on this earth with this fleshly body....For I will not be glorified until I am dead...When I am dead, then I am truly saved as I have persevered.....

Joe
Now this is the way I view ''you'' based on what I have read from your post....I see you in the position as I see me....There is no dought in my mind that you are saved and you will persevere.....Now you may not view yourself this way but the fact is this. If your are truly a child of God, you will persevere because you are not doing it on your strength, but by the Holy Spirit....

I hope this clears up my position a little...

That's how I see it also, JG, after believing in my early days as a believer that one could loose their salvation. What corrected me was the Holy Spirit opening my eyes and ears and showing me that it is not my salvation, but is the salvation of God Almighty for each believer. Now how can a mere man do anything to avert the free gift of salvation given by God Almighty?

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

When I got saved, I was ''justified''....meaning I was no longer under condemnation...But was sealed by the Holy Spirit....I attained my salvation by Grace through faith alone....I did nothing to earn this gift of salvation...Since it was a Gift and God is not one to take back what he has given, it is mine....The Holy Spirit will see that I persevere in my walk through life, for it is the Holy Spirit who has sealed me at Justification....Now here is the ''key''.....Truly I am not saved while I am walking on this earth with this fleshly body....For I will not be glorified until I am dead...When I am dead, then I am truly saved as I have persevered.....

Javier (and Solo),

I suppose I see things a bit differently. On the one hand, much of what you have both said makes sense and is applicable in how I see initial justification. Nothing we can do can earn salvation. We are forever sealed. Salvation is a gift from above. We agree on that.

Where I guess I have some disagreement on - because of experience and meditation on the Word, is that the Holy Spirit does not FORCE us to persevere. True, He leads us, He prompts us. But I don't believe in the "Calvinist" idea that a person is saved regardless of his own actions. I think we will be able to look back on our lives while standing in front of Jesus and say "yes, I WAS one of the elect - look how the Lord brought me to persevere." But we don't know that today. I believe our actions show that a person has the Spirit. We shouldn't presume we have the Spirit UNLESS we have the fruit of His presence in our lives and throughout our lives.

I was listening to 1 John on the way to work this morning, and the second and third chapter says a lot towards this very conversation. We are told to persevere and we are given the ability to do so by the Spirit. But our fruits show just how much we are actually IN Christ - as 1 John relates. We can know we have Christ abiding in us by our obedience to the Commandments. Those who don't, even Christians, do NOT have Christ abiding in them. And as we know from 1 John 5:12 - those who do not have Christ do not have life.

Joe
Now this is the way I view ''you'' based on what I have read from your post....I see you in the position as I see me....There is no dought in my mind that you are saved and you will persevere.....Now you may not view yourself this way but the fact is this. If your are truly a child of God, you will persevere because you are not doing it on your strength, but by the Holy Spirit....

I agree that the Spirit is enabling me or you to persevere. But again, look at 1 John (God has a way of placing pertinent Scriptures in front of us!) and what is written...

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3:3-7

And then...

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:14-15


From such verses, I see that while we abide in Christ, we are being transformed. We are being MADE righteous, just as He is righteous (of course, not to the same degree). But this is based on our NOT sinning! This is based on OUR following the promptings of Him who abides in us. When we obey Christ, it is because He abides in us. It seems from this, when we sin, Christ is not abiding in us, and when we are righteous, Christ is abiding in us. Although the Spirit's mark is upon us - in that we have been anointed and are children of God, it doesn't follow that some of us will not falter, as Paul discussed in 1 Cor 10:1-12. Thus, I see perseverance as critical in our "final" salvation.

I understand your "first salvation" and agree with much of what you have said. But I see salvation, justification, and sanctification as synonymous terms, as ongoing. For example, after our initial salvation, is a person "saved" from sin if he falters and is carried away by some perversion and slavery, say, as the man from 1 Cor 5? Is that man saved from sin while currently a slave to sin? Thus, the definition of "salvation" should take into account our current status - are we really saved from the slavery of sin while living in the "vomit" of our former lives?

Yes, you have made your position clear and I see the sense in some of it - we agree with some of it. I believe, though, that salvation is an ongoing process. Thus, sometimes it will appear that we will talk past each other when discussing such issues - you will be refering to that one moment in time when you first accepted our Lord as Savior - while I will be talking about "am I in Christ today?" when refering to "am I saved from sin or am I a slave to sin?"

Thanks again for your kind and thoughtful response.

Joe

 

[Guest]

Re: reply

Yes, you have made your position clear and I see the sense in some of it - we agree with some of it. I believe, though, that salvation is an ongoing process. Thus, sometimes it will appear that we will talk past each other when discussing such issues - you will be refering to that one moment in time when you first accepted our Lord as Savior - while I will be talking about "am I in Christ today?" when refering to "am I saved from sin or am I a slave to sin?"

Thanks again for your kind and thoughtful response.

Joe

If I may jump into this discussion for a bit.

I believe that Salvation includes both a moment in time and an ongoing process. Salvation was secured for the believer at the cross. Through the death of Christ - salvation was purchased once and for all (in reference to time: in other words, no more sacrifices are needed). God's justice for payment was satasfied with the death of Christ.

While salvation was secured at the Cross, salvation is actualized in the life of a believer when that person accepts the Cross as payment for their sins - ie: believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that the Holy Spirit opens the eyes and heart of a person to receive the Good News - making that which was heard but unknown (not understood) - known.

From this point, I believe that we 'work out our salvation' through understanding (knowledge; orthodoxy) and living out our faith (practice; orthopraxis). I do not mean to suggest that our salvation is an on going processs - salvation, as I pointed out above, was secured at the cross.

To say that we can 'lose our salvation' either makes the Cross - unsecure or the actualization (ie: the relevation of the Holy Spirit) in the believers life ineffective. Both are contrary to the attributes of God.

In 1 Corinthians 5 Paul states in verse 5 (1 Cor 5:5) that "I have decided to deliver such a one to Stan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

The "such a one" is a believer that is teaching and encouraging sinful behavior (1 Cor 5:1-2). Therefore, this believer has not lost his salvation since his 'spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".

I believe it to be the responsiblity of all believers to rely on the Holy Spirit, the inspritiation and guidance of the Written Word, and to model our lives on the life of Jesus Christ - to seek to sin less and less. While we are not bound to sin no more (Romans 6:11-14), we still feel it's temptations and desires. Through the transformation of our minds (Romans 12:2) we are not to be conformed to this world. Rather we are now 'slaves' to the one who owns us - we are now 'slaves of righteousness. (Romans 6:18)

 

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Joe

Last night when I was typing up my post, the passages in 1 John kept coming to my mind and even started to write about those passages, but decided my post was getting to long so I left them out. No regrets in not posting them, as perhaps the timing is now right to post them, seeing that we were both on the same page....The Holy Spirit at work, Gotta love it....

To take it even further, allot of what Scott / Alonevoice wrote, I also had written down...It is all about the cross...

And Michael... When you said ''What corrected me was the Holy Spirit opening my eyes and ears and showing me that it is not my salvation, but is the salvation of God Almighty for each believer.''

Joe
You also mentioned in a post on this thread I believe '' imputed Justification''....For the record, I do not believe that either....God will not force himself or his salvation on anybody.....God gave each person ''free will'' to choose or reject him...I mention this because there are many 5 point or hyper Calvinist that hold to ''this imputed justification'' and ''IF'' you are one one the elect you will persevere and in an essence this is saying that God ''imputed himself'' on the elect....Any God who would force himself on someone is not a God of Love....Love would then be meaningless....No God is a God of Love....So much so that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned

God is not forcing anyone to believe in him...

Why do I mention all of this? I am getting to that....Now lets look at this certain scripture....

1 John 3:4-9
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

There are many folks who have problems with this scripture...It is heavy stuff...When I first read it, I was convinced that I was not born again because I kept sinning on a daily basis...To this day I sin everyday....Does this mean I am a child of the devil?....Glory be to God that I am a child of God....The greek word for commits means habitually, practices, plans out his sins....In other words, no child of God will practice sinning...e.g. ''after work I will see my girlfriend since my wife is out of town, or I think I will go by the strip club on Saturday, or I think I plan a robbery or a murder....'' You see a child of God would not plan his sins....That is what John Is saying....

Now let me talk about OSAS.... I hold this view but let me put it in context....
I have a friend Named ALEX...True story....This fellow is married and has 2 kids a great wife who loves him and his brother is the Pastor of a Free methodist Church / (Armenianist)...He tells a friend of mine and me that even though he attends an Armenianst church, he is a ''Calvinist''...When we asked why, he said because Once he is saved, he is always saved.....

you see this fellow has two major ''sins''...He drinks himself drunk and beats his wife and he has a girlfriend on the side and yet he believes he is OSAS because he gave his life to Jesus when he was young....According to the passage I just quoted in 1 John, this guy is ''NOT'' saved and his fruit proves he is not saved....This is where OSAS gets a bad name from...There are many Alexes out in the world who think they are saved when they are not.....

I have told him to his face, that If he were born again, he would not be cheating on his wife, getting drunk and beating her....He tells me I am judging him, I tell him I am judging him in the same way I would want to be judged..After all he confided in me for advice...By the way, I did change the name....Even though I hope he runs across this thread, he will see himself...

So if a person id a child of God, he is justified....It is God (Holy Spirit) who will walk us through life, through ''his'' strength and ''NOT'' ours and we will persevere...I will also point out that God does not force us to or impute us to persevere, because for a child of God it is an honor to walk through life with God....When we sin, when we stray, when we back slide, the Holy Spirit is there to bring ''conviction'' and ''NOT'' condemnation to us and bring us back to him....for God will not loose any of his elect....If you are a child of God, you are one of the ''elect''...How do u know if you are one of the elect? Simply put if you have received Gods forgiveness and have accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour of your life, then you are one of the elect....