cyberjosh
Member
Ok Francis, we are getting much closer to ap oint of agreement and understanding. I'm glad. However let note a few remaining points which we also need to work out.
Absolutely, no doubt about it. And is is done to remain in the covering of Jesus. Ultimately it is only Jesus' covering that gains us our salvation, our part merely lies within the realm of our responsibility to follow Christ in order to allow him to cover us, by not apostacising. It is not our persevereance that "earns" us our right to salvation, but rather God's unmerited gracious gift of salvation which covers us as long as we are in a relationship with him (which requires on our part persevring). We will recieve personal rewards for our good works and for persevering but salvation is not one of them. That is wholely the gracious work of God, and I know that you know that.
Right, and I elaborated in that position above (us having to remain under the realm of his influence so that he can continue to cover us - and that covering not by any merit of our own, of course). Thus the covering becomes of central importance while we "simply" (in the sense of our simple devotion to Christ - 2 Corinthians 11:3) devote ourselves to Christ and allow him to bring us closer by his power and his grace while we maintain our faith in him by which he has the power to keep us (1 Peter 1:5) if we do not cast him off. But the covering is the only hope we have of being saved. That was my simple point, though no doubt we can cast it off.
But wait, perhaps you are mixing up your terminology, but since you admitted that our new man and Christ are one & the same then you would be saying that Christ falters with us. This is inconcievable, and also why I emphasised earlier why I thought the new nature (our - personal - new nature, our "new man") was undefiled, why else would we put it on if the new nature can be defiled as well, that defeats the purpose of putting on our new nature. If I falter in faith (by puting on the "old man" - the flesh), Christ does not, thus there is an opposition: "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another (Galatians 5:17). So I actually am having a difficult time seeing how there aren't two contrary natures in us. Its not like every time we falter our "new man" leaves us.
Note the example I gave in one of my longer posts above:
"Its not like if you back slide one night and go out and get drunk at a bar that Jesus says, "Oop, he's dabbling in sin, I disown him, he is no longer in me, so I will take away his new nature until he repents". No! The new nature, like the indwelling Spirit is there to stay as a default (with the only - often rare - exeption being apostacy)" [which would be a final and decisive casting of our our new man - but the new man (like the Spirit - would not leave us prior to a complete, and absolute eviction].
So what do you make of this?
The Galatian did begin to "enslave themselves again to the law", however this does not mean that Christ had left the, they were merely burderning themselves with extra observances of the law and failing to utilize grace. Paul warned them about their doing for the explicit purpose of turning them from the road they were headed down, because there was still hope (I do not belive they had yet commited apostacy - though they were headed that direction - thus why Paul wrote to them). And let us not forget that God is not completely idle in the Christian life - he can intervene to a degree. Hebrews says that he will chastize those who are his, and God will certainly battle for your affections, so its not a sudden, flippant "one day I'll serve sin the other I'll serve God", for no man can serve two masters simultaneously, even God's children can be led astray for a period but they are still under God's protection and still his child until you apostacise. So I may fall into sin from time to time but I most certainly do not become its slave as I was before I was saved, because I have not forsaken Christ.
Well there can be a slight distinction that our new man is of Christ, and in Christ but distinctly ours, because it becomes part of us - only because of Christ's indwelling. None the less it is a nature in us, and is part of us, thus why I begged the question above of how it could falter with the rest of "us".
P.S. I hope you see where my genuine concerns and questions lie now. I really want to get an understanding of this.
God Bless,
~Josh
Absolutely, no doubt about it. And is is done to remain in the covering of Jesus. Ultimately it is only Jesus' covering that gains us our salvation, our part merely lies within the realm of our responsibility to follow Christ in order to allow him to cover us, by not apostacising. It is not our persevereance that "earns" us our right to salvation, but rather God's unmerited gracious gift of salvation which covers us as long as we are in a relationship with him (which requires on our part persevring). We will recieve personal rewards for our good works and for persevering but salvation is not one of them. That is wholely the gracious work of God, and I know that you know that.
Right, and I elaborated in that position above (us having to remain under the realm of his influence so that he can continue to cover us - and that covering not by any merit of our own, of course). Thus the covering becomes of central importance while we "simply" (in the sense of our simple devotion to Christ - 2 Corinthians 11:3) devote ourselves to Christ and allow him to bring us closer by his power and his grace while we maintain our faith in him by which he has the power to keep us (1 Peter 1:5) if we do not cast him off. But the covering is the only hope we have of being saved. That was my simple point, though no doubt we can cast it off.
But wait, perhaps you are mixing up your terminology, but since you admitted that our new man and Christ are one & the same then you would be saying that Christ falters with us. This is inconcievable, and also why I emphasised earlier why I thought the new nature (our - personal - new nature, our "new man") was undefiled, why else would we put it on if the new nature can be defiled as well, that defeats the purpose of putting on our new nature. If I falter in faith (by puting on the "old man" - the flesh), Christ does not, thus there is an opposition: "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another (Galatians 5:17). So I actually am having a difficult time seeing how there aren't two contrary natures in us. Its not like every time we falter our "new man" leaves us.
Note the example I gave in one of my longer posts above:
"Its not like if you back slide one night and go out and get drunk at a bar that Jesus says, "Oop, he's dabbling in sin, I disown him, he is no longer in me, so I will take away his new nature until he repents". No! The new nature, like the indwelling Spirit is there to stay as a default (with the only - often rare - exeption being apostacy)" [which would be a final and decisive casting of our our new man - but the new man (like the Spirit - would not leave us prior to a complete, and absolute eviction].
So what do you make of this?
The Galatian did begin to "enslave themselves again to the law", however this does not mean that Christ had left the, they were merely burderning themselves with extra observances of the law and failing to utilize grace. Paul warned them about their doing for the explicit purpose of turning them from the road they were headed down, because there was still hope (I do not belive they had yet commited apostacy - though they were headed that direction - thus why Paul wrote to them). And let us not forget that God is not completely idle in the Christian life - he can intervene to a degree. Hebrews says that he will chastize those who are his, and God will certainly battle for your affections, so its not a sudden, flippant "one day I'll serve sin the other I'll serve God", for no man can serve two masters simultaneously, even God's children can be led astray for a period but they are still under God's protection and still his child until you apostacise. So I may fall into sin from time to time but I most certainly do not become its slave as I was before I was saved, because I have not forsaken Christ.
Well there can be a slight distinction that our new man is of Christ, and in Christ but distinctly ours, because it becomes part of us - only because of Christ's indwelling. None the less it is a nature in us, and is part of us, thus why I begged the question above of how it could falter with the rest of "us".
P.S. I hope you see where my genuine concerns and questions lie now. I really want to get an understanding of this.
God Bless,
~Josh
