Clear examples of false belief in John & Epistles...?

[cyberjosh]

Yes, you are correct - but I was just trying to point out that the Spirit does not permanently dwell in us.

I think this is where you may have been missing what I have been saying. The Spirit has the potential to not permanantly dwell in us, since we can push him away (thus commiting apostacy). However up to that point of apostacy, if it is commited, since the day they were saved the Holy Spirit never left that person. The Holy Spirit's residence in us is not for a short hotel trip to check up on us. The intent and will of God is for Him to remain in us, and all true Christians who have not apostacized have remained abiding in the Spirit and the Spirit in them to this very day since the day they were saved. Only if we push away the Spirit will he leave, and he is a stubborn evictee at that (he will chastize you first).

So when you say, "I would tend to agree with this explanation much more than your initial ones - for example, that Christians CAN and DO fall away. This PROVES that the Spirit does not abide in those who choose to NOT put on Christ." I would say that the Spirit does abide in them up to that point, because he'll only go away if you permanantly evict him. The way you are wording it (perhaps its just ambiguous) it sounds like you make the Spirit out to be hovering over us or near us (but not in us) waiting to see our every move to see whether he should enter us or not. Whether that was your belief or not, that is not true. The Holy Spirit dwells in the individual believer from day one of their salvation and does not leave them unless they renounce their faith. As for me the Spirit has never left me. The only fluctuation in respect to the Spirit's influence on me would be whether I am filled with the Holy Spirit or not. In Acts being filled with the HS is mentioned several times as a repetetive process after salvation but the indwelling of the Spirit upon salvation is mentioned only once in relation to the individual in Acts.

I merely was denying that your take is correct - that the Spirit never will leave the individual.

Yeah but you make it sound like an expectation! Denying that the Spirit never "will"... (as if saying all beleivers should expect...)? He will leave us? No, not unless we commit the difficult and unlikely event of apostacy. Most Christians stick with Christ, and I am glad to say that no one I know has forsaken Christ that is a Christian. BUt surely you didn't mean this at all. It must just be the way you are going about speaking of it or have worded it.

And again, you seem to be changing positions, in my view. Perhaps I just misunderstood you... Previously, it sounded like this "new nature" was something apart from us - and that God would judge THIS new nature. Again, the "fleshy nature" refers to our own "lust of eyes, lust of body, and pride of life" of 1 John. It is ANY attitude that differs and contradicts our Lord and Savior's WAY. Thus, we fight it. Paul is not saying, however, that there are two actual beings or creations within us fighting. It is US who must choose to follow or not the ways of Christ. Will we put on Christ?

Ok now here is where we may have to work a little. Yes I agree that Paul did not endorse some dualistic view of "old nature" vs. "new nature" however when seeing these as choices personified they still become entities. The Bible speaks of the "old man" as an entity and an evil one at that (the flesh) from which evil desires come (James 1:14), and the new nature is a definate new creation from God himself and both of these are in the believer. Now I cannot take a razor and draw a line between the human's soul & spirit and point out where the new nature is and where the old nature is, the Bible just isn't that specific (and to get too speculative would start to enter the philosophical realm), but we do have a new nature from God from which I believe nothing bad comes, this is why we need to "put it on". In a parallel verse we are told to "put on the Lord Jesus Christ". And since the bible says all who are in Christ Jesus are a new creation, then I must believe that the essence of our new nature is from Jesus himself, yet is distinct and personally ours (since it is "in" him). And its not like if you back slide one night and go out and get drunk at a bar that Jesus says, "Oop, he's dabbling in sin, I disown him, he is no longer in me, so I will take away his new nature until he repents". No! The new nature, like the indwelling Spirit is there to stay as a default (with the only - often rare - exeption being apostacy). But that's an exception in God's plan, not the rule (and thank God most of our brtheren live by the rule). We are not walking on thin ice when it comes to our new nature (in relation to flippantly & accidentally throwing it away [losing salvation] - we don't have to be afraid of that - though Satan will certainly beat up new believer on that one big time) unless we blatantly rebell against God and reject him. Then his judgement would come upon us if we did that, but we do have an indwelling new nature which allows us to partake of the Divine nature since it is in Christ, but when we fail to utilize this privilege (Paul calls it "receive(ing) the grace of God in vain") is when we dabble in the flesh, but we don't commit the unforgivable sin flippanty and accidentally, only through persistant and definate defiance against God will such an apostacy happen. This is how I see it.


God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

continuing on a few more of your points...

It seems like your are saying something different then you last few posts.

Well really it isn't. I merely summarized/condensed it for you in that small paragraph. I said & implied all of that when I said this initially:

"The only reason I bring this up is that there is a new division that is completed in the NT that was not (in my understanding) present in the OT. We have been set free from the flesh legally (Romans 7:1-6), it having been crucified, and corruption & temptation comes from its remnants which we have the freewill to give into (because we have not yet recieved the redemption of our bodies (Romans 7:24-25)). However we also have the new creation in us which God desires us to put on for sanctification, and when we do sin we have an advocate if we confess and repent (1 John 1:9) and now there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). And we are not of our own. This is the difference: we have that new nature and God commits judgement on our behalf in relation to that new creation (imputing sin & righteousness according to the terms of the new covenant) and the grace he has given us. We are responsible for giving in to the flesh (the consequences of which are stated in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15) but our new man is undefiled and is positionally clean. Being "in Christ" is also a NT phenomenon and defines a new nature and new way of living not present in the OT."
Though you are focusing hard on making the point that you can fall away from the Spirit (which I agree with), I think you lean too hard upon it (or so it seems) to the point where you are missing my positive remarks about the definate changes God makes in a new born Christian. It's not like God just gives us a high-five and a pat on the back and gives you a "spiritual shower" and then says "Thanks for stopping by come back again sometime." No, he changes your nature then and there and unless you screw it up (which you have to really try at - as I made my point above, apostacy is not something simply "tripped over") he will continue to dwell in you the rest of your life, and you will remain in your new nature and not cast it off, receiving the partially, yet presently bestowed eschatalogical blessings because of your abiding in Him! I'm trying to focus on the opposite end of the spectrum and we're dragging it in the mud of the possibility of apostacy (which obviously is a possibilty, but...) which seems to tarnish the good and rather permanant unless changed aspects of God's regeneration, indwelling, and creation of a new creature in us. Sure I'll admit to apostacy, but let's not dampen the power and awesome wonders of God's gracious change that he effects in his genuine children who have not forsaken him, and how they recieve amazing blessings and communion with his Spirit now!

Now the point I tried to make in the italicised quote of what I said above was to put God's creation of a "new man" in us in light of how our justification fits in. To that end I said this:

"Now if we ultimately persevere, even if we stumble, our bad works will be burned (and we shall suffer loss) yet we will still be saved (1 Corinthians 3:11-15), and it is the new man who is created and justified by Jesus that will be looked at because the new nature is affected by the Spirit and Christ indwelling in us, thus God sees Christ in us and not ourselves (who are insufficient without Jesus): that is the essence of justification."

Now the effects of that justification are immediate and given to keep unless we deliberately push them away after they are promised, but as I have excessively noted that is the exception rather than the rule. We are told now that there is no condemnation, we are told now that, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned [accepted now in light of the promised future], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:18). There is a present sense of immediacy to it all now, and the Bible sometimes (though obviously not in all instances/cases) states our salvation as a present yet final reality in light of our future gurantee of it. This of course does not preclude apostacy (but that is the mere interruption - the exception - of the inital, momentum gaining plan of God's will). So I would like you to view what I am saying in that light of what we are guranteed in light of eternity based on present actions (thus we can rejoice in advance in light of our realized hope), though ofcourse (and I'm kinda getting sick of this word by now since it is not the main focus in any part of God's redmption plan) apostacy is always a possibility.

The change in us is not irreversible

Granted.

and it is limited ontologically

Now what do you mean by that? I have stated that only an interuption (apostacy) will cause an exception to all of God's plan being manifested on us. Otherwise (with apostacy out of the picture) the Holy Spirit is there to stay in the faithful believer and gives them a present taste of heaven before they actually get there as a guarantee of where they will end up. We will have the Spirit dwelling in us through the rest of our lives if we live faithfully and when the full manifestation of eschatology comes God will also fulfill his promises of "dwelling in them, and among them, Him being their God, and them being his people" for all eternity. We get to keep the Spirit (or atleast be in his presence if we look at life after death as well) indefinately (according to God's uninterupted plan) unless we push him away.

Again, I believe we are closer in agreement when we throw aside the idea that we are merely imputed justice - and that we realize that God REALLY DOES begin to change us

Well I never implied that the Christian life was like sitting in a "Spiritual grace" tanning bed where we just soak up righteouness all day long! :D We obviously are active, that is what the true Christian does. And that person never has to worry about the Spirit leaving him, he can be secure and rejoice in realized hope.

But this justification, this sanctification, is ongoing. We are urged to continue to build upon the faith and virtue that God places within us.

As I have said before eternal promises are sometimes conveyed to the Believer now in a sense of "once and for all" (with the only excpetion/interuption being [that word I don't like any more]). Our eternal justification is imputed to us presently in light of the definate gurantee of justification we will have for persevering, if we do indeed do so, in eternity. So God amazingly allows us to live in light of eternity instead of the temporal life we have now! But if we turn away from him we forfit all priviliges & right to do so.

Previously, it sounded like this "new nature" was something apart from us

Well I do say that the new nature isn't 100% of who we are now (though since Paul realizes the "eternal perspective" [I'll call it] he banks on it being his "true" nature under covenant, knowing one day it will be fully manifested as so), or else it would be unnecessary to say in any sense or aspect to "put it on" after salvation. But it is not even created until salvation so its not like puting on the new man is equivalent to initial salvation and as if we then never cease being in our new man at that point. I say the new man is in Christ and is how Christ transforms our mind by his Spirit. Only by neglecting to allow Christ do this by failing to "put on the new man" do I see apostacy as possible.

P.S. I've given you more than enough to chew on. I'll wait a while to give you time to look over my two long posts. I hope my intelligence, wit, humor, and sincerety have atleast kept the discussion provocative and stimulating thus far. I try to put all of my faculties into doing something I'm passionate about.


God Bless,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

Josh,

My intent was not to write books back and forth. I just wanted to point out a few things that I noticed was incorrect in your long posts. Basically, I saw four things.

First, that the Spirit was not present to the people of God in the Old Testament. I think we agree now.

Secondly, that our "nature" that has changed is not irreversible or ontologically so in a manner that we can no longer sin and are no longer in danger of falling away. You believe that only apostacy separates us from the Body. But look at 1 Cor 5, for example - that pervert was excommunicated from the Body - and there is no salvation outside the Body. Again and again, I have listed Scriptures that point to other sins that separate us from God. These sins are "deadly", killing us spiritually. It is incorrect, then, to presume that the Spirit of God will never leave us - when we die spiritually, we have no life within us spiritually - the Spirit is gone.

Next, the OT/NT differences of the Spirit. One is knowledge of God's manifestation in the Incarnation. Thus, Paul can say...

I count all things to be but loss for the excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord; for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but as dung, that I may gain Christ Phil 3:8

Further along, he also says...

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable to his death, If by any means I may attain to the resurrection which is from the dead. Not as though I has already attained, or were already perfect; but I follow after, if I may by any means apprehend, wherein I am also apprehended by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended. But one thing I do: forgetting the things that are behind, and stretching forth myself to those that are before, I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:10-14

Thus, this addresses the final point - and that is that we are a complete new man after receiving the Spirit. Notice Paul still strives for that attainment - knowing that he is not perfect, nor has he apprehended the prize yet. This talk about "new nature" or "new man" is the other DESIRE within us that wars with our fallen conscience and desires to be selfish. This NEW conscience, this new value system, is the putting on of Christ - made possible by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Now, we KNOW, as I have strived to point out. Knowledge of God's revelation is one of the biggest differences between the two covenants. We now understand that we CAN have "natural" hearts, rather than hearts of stone.

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

You know, A person can be saved without being a member of a church or going to church. The verse in 1 Cor. 5:5 doesnt say this man lost his salvation. It says his flesh was given over to satan, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. I would imagine he died physically, but did not suffer spiritual death and went to heaven.

Josh and Fran. Your posts are pretty confusing to me. Let me ask a question. Is there a difference between our spirit and souls? Did you read my privious post? Therein lies your answer to the right interpretation of the New Birth.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[cyberjosh]

Re: reply

You know, A person can be saved without being a member of a church or going to church. The verse in 1 Cor. 5:5 doesnt say this man lost his salvation. It says his flesh was given over to satan, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. I would imagine he died physically, but did not suffer spiritual death and went to heaven.

Josh and Fran. Your posts are pretty confusing to me. Let me ask a question. Is there a difference between our spirit and souls? Did you read my privious post? Therein lies your answer to the right interpretation of the New Birth.

Yes I read your last post, and yes soul and spirit are two different things. I even mentioned your arguement in my last two posts (about midway) when I said:

"Our new nature is not to blame when we sin (lest we say Christ shared in that sin - since he indwells it). It ceratinly grieves him but I say the new nature remains undefiled, but it is our souls that are defiled by giving into the old system of the world and of the flesh. Golfjack is right that we are a 3 part being, that must be taken into account. Note in my post I said that the soul is the battleground between our new nature and our old one. But since I try to look at both sides of the coin I allow for apostacy and a possible losing of our new nature if we utterly forsake it (forsake God the indwelling Spirit - Hebrews 6:4-6). But while we remain in God, even if we do stumble sometimes, we can overcome and Jesus will cover us if we repent - that is the heart of justification. Beleivers who do so will recieve the White Throne judgement in the end, as judgement not for sins but the deeds of the saints (refered to in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15) in order to determine rewards. "

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

You believe that only apostacy separates us from the Body. But look at 1 Cor 5, for example - that pervert was excommunicated from the Body - and there is no salvation outside the Body.

Well I have to agree with golfjack here when he says, "You know, A person can be saved without being a member of a church or going to church. The verse in 1 Cor. 5:5 doesnt say this man lost his salvation."
Plus the body does not define our personal salvation, else what you say would give the Catholic Church a credibile basis to say "Nulla Salas Extra Ecclesium" ("No salvation outside the Catholic Church"). And plus the body excomminucating you doesn't necessarily signify loss of salvation, no one can force you to lose salvation only by personal choice will God then decide to withdrawl his Spirit from them. I don't believe we should define salvation along the lines of the body, since being part of the body is a consequence of being saved, not the other way around.

I count all things to be but loss for the excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord

True, but also in the NT knowledge equates to eternal life, something different from the OT. Jesus said that eternal life was to know God. Why else do you think I mentioned eternal life so many times in my last post?

This talk about "new nature" or "new man" is the other DESIRE within us that wars with our fallen conscience and desires to be selfish. This NEW conscience, this new value system, is the putting on of Christ - made possible by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Well it's not just a "new conscience" really, I believe it is spiritual in essence, and through the spirit one is conveyed eternal life through Jesus (since he is indwelling), so its much more than a desire its a source, like a fixed connection to a wellspring of eternal life flowing from Jesus himself, which changes us and cleanses us as we walk in the Spirit. And that energizes us to walk in righteousness just like water (springs of eternal life - John 4:14 & John 7:37-38) energizes a waterwheel (our new man). This is why I emphasise a change and an indwelling which affects eternal life in us.

P.S. I hope we can refine our points from here, though it may be necessary for me to reference some of the things I've already said in my (rather long) posts above. But if you have the time please read through all of them to see where I am coming from if you haven't read them all the way through. I put some time and thought in to those.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[golfjack]

reply

Josh, sorry I misunderstood you. I guess it is Fran who is not making any sense to me. By the way, I think you meant the judgment seat of Christ for believers. The great White Throne Judgment is for unbelievers.




May God bless, Golfjack

 

[cyberjosh]

Re: reply

By the way, I think you meant the judgment seat of Christ for believers. The great White Throne Judgment is for unbelievers.

Oh... is it? Whoops. Does that one have a "name" like the white throne judgement does or is is an unspecified (unnamed) judgement?

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Josh, sorry I misunderstood you. I guess it is Fran who is not making any sense to me.

Naturally...

 

[jgredline]

I think its important to note, that while the soul and spirit are different, there are times when scripture uses those two terms interchangeably....I am not trying to sidetrack your thread, but this is a very important thing to know and understand......

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Re: reply

Oh... is it? Whoops. Does that one have a "name" like the white throne judgement does or is is an unspecified (unnamed) judgement?

It is most often referred to as the judgment seat of Christ.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

 

[francisdesales]

I think its important to note, that while the soul and spirit are different, there are times when scripture uses those two terms interchangeably....I am not trying to sidetrack your thread, but this is a very important thing to know and understand......

I tried that with Golfjack several times before, but he ignores me....
Maybe not being a Catholic, your word will carry more weight, Javier.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Well I have to agree with golfjack here when he says, "You know, A person can be saved without being a member of a church or going to church. The verse in 1 Cor. 5:5 doesnt say this man lost his salvation."

Depends how you define "church". If you take the biblical view, that one must be in the Body of Christ - since there is no other name that can save man - then one MUST be part of this Body, the Church.

Now, does that mean one must be a Roman Catholic, go to Mass, and have their names on the diocesesan roles? No. Vatican 2 and the Constitution on the Church made that clear. "No salvation outside the Church" (not Catholic Church!) means that no one can be saved by any other way than him who is part of the Body, the Church. As 1 John says, "that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life. 1 John 5:12

No life, no salvation. Does having it once mean you will ALWAYS have it? No. Here is another example...

they who are in the flesh, cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:8-9

Note the big word "IF"!

Paul does not presume that each INDIVIDUAL has the Spirit dwelling within them. Naturally, the Church as an organization does. It is the Temple of God. And those united to this temple ALSO have the Spirit within them. But as Paul writes above, people DO listen to the flesh. During these times, they are NOT putting on Christ, they do not have God abiding within them. Dying in this relationship means loss of eternal life offered. This is perfectly in synch with what John says above, and the rest of the writers of the NT.

And plus the body excomminucating you doesn't necessarily signify loss of salvation, no one can force you to lose salvation only by personal choice will God then decide to withdrawl his Spirit from them. I don't believe we should define salvation along the lines of the body, since being part of the body is a consequence of being saved, not the other way around.

Sorry, a cell outside of the body dies. Same is true regarding the individual. We see this in the OT, as well. Those cast out of the community were no longer 'saved'. Being part of the body IS a consequence of being saved, but your definition is too narrow - being saved encompasses much more in Scriptures.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

Before we get too far ahead of ourselves francis I still wanted to cover a few lingering points before we continue. I would like it if you commented on what I said about our new nature being more than just a "new conscience", because I believe this is important.

Secondly I wanted to know if you agreed on what I said about justification:

"Now if we ultimately persevere, even if we stumble, our bad works will be burned (and we shall suffer loss) yet we will still be saved (1 Corinthians 3:11-15), and it is the new man who is created and justified by Jesus that will be looked at because the new nature is affected by the Spirit and Christ indwelling in us, thus God sees Christ in us and not ourselves (who are insufficient without Jesus): that is the essence of justification."

If you disagree with what I said then lets work out the wrinkles. And a simple "new conscience" does not account for our new nature defined in Christ which will cover us for atonement (our justification). God isn't going to look at a "new conscience" for our justification but a new nature which is accounted (imputed) as righteous in Christ, because the new nature is created in the image of Christ. Thus God sees Christ instead of us, not our righteousness but His.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[golfjack]

reply

I believe to gain a better understanding of our natures, it would help us to go through this process in our thinking:

1. With our spirits, we contact the spiritual realm.

2. With our souls, we contact the intellectual and emotional realm.

3. With our bodies, we contact the physical realm.

We see in the Bible that there is a difference between our spirits and souls. Yes, we do see the that soul and spirit is interchanngeable sometimes, especially in the Old Testament. We see many times the Bible uses Heart to me the same thing as our spirits. Afterall, it is the heart of men that needs to be born again. But this does not negate the difference between spirit and soul. You see when we study Heb. 4:12, the Bible divides them so it stands to reason they aren't the same thing. It would be just as unscriptural to say that the spirit and soul are the same ass it would be to say that the body and soul are the same.

The Book of James also makes a distinction between the soul and the spirit of man. Also, notice that our spirits are saved or recreated, but this verse we see that are souls are not saved in the new birth. ( James 1:21).


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[cyberjosh]

golfjack,

I don't want to sidetrack the current discussion with that so I PM'd you. Perhaps you could do the same with francis if you and him had a particular disagreement on something concerning it, so that the thread isn't highjacked on an arguement about man's constituent parts.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

Before we get too far ahead of ourselves francis I still wanted to cover a few lingering points before we continue. I would like it if you commented on what I said about our new nature being more than just a "new conscience", because I believe this is important.

Yes, I do believe it is more than just a "consciousness". We are infused with God's grace as a result of the Holy Spirit and justification. We are not merely imputed with justification. We really BECOME righteous because of the presence of God taking part in our actions of love. It is a joint venture, so to speak, when I love. Thus, I can claim nothing for MYSELF, since I can do nothing ALONE. However, this is of a imited "effectiveness", because I CAN choose sin, I CAN choose the fleshy ways of the world. IF I do, I do not have God abiding within me. Thus, this "nature" is not some irreversible ontological change within me. It is a CURRENT state of a relationship between myself and God.

Secondly I wanted to know if you agreed on what I said about justification:

"Now if we ultimately persevere, even if we stumble, our bad works will be burned (and we shall suffer loss) yet we will still be saved (1 Corinthians 3:11-15), and it is the new man who is created and justified by Jesus that will be looked at because the new nature is affected by the Spirit and Christ indwelling in us, thus God sees Christ in us and not ourselves (who are insufficient without Jesus): that is the essence of justification."

Because Protestantism is so vast and varied regarding theology, I had previously presumed that you were of the classical bent - that justification is a one-time event, an imputed event in our lives. I see that is an incorrect presumption on my part. On 1 Cor 3:11-15, you need to continue with the section and go to verse 17, as well. Also, I do not understand this "separation" you make within man. There is only one of me, not two of me. In the end, I will be judged. As I said before, part of me doesn't go to heaven, the other to hell. Either all of me or none of me will enter into the presence of the Lord in eternity. Thus, this new "nature" that you discuss is going beyond what the rest of Scriptures detail regarding judgment of man.


Jesus clearly tells us that OUR righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees and Scribes to enter the Kingdom. You give with one hand and take away with the other. If we are changed internally, then WE CAN become righteous in God's eyes. Of course, this is not of our own doing. But just the same, we are indeed changed and transformed by the Spirit. There is not "two" of me in existence. The war goes on inside of me and I decide which way it shall go - and this decision will be the basis of my future judgment. IF Christ "covered" me, then EVERYONE would go to heaven. We both know that Christianity does not hold that doctrine. It is nearly impossible to escape the numerous verses that discuss how we will be judged - CHRISTIANS - on how much we love. Reread Matthew 25 - Jesus gives three parables to that effect.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

Jesus clearly tells us that OUR righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees and Scribes to enter the Kingdom. You give with one hand and take away with the other. If we are changed internally, then WE CAN become righteous in God's eyes. Of course, this is not of our own doing. But just the same, we are indeed changed and transformed by the Spirit. There is not "two" of me in existence. The war goes on inside of me and I decide which way it shall go - and this decision will be the basis of my future judgment. IF Christ "covered" me, then EVERYONE would go to heaven. We both know that Christianity does not hold that doctrine. It is nearly impossible to escape the numerous verses that discuss how we will be judged - CHRISTIANS - on how much we love.

Well let me draw on your point that the righteousness is not of our own doing. We have to draw our righteousness from Christ, which we only can do if we are first saved, so what you said about taking the "covered position" as having the consequence of EVERYONE going to heaven is not applicable. Only the ones who have Christ can have that opportunity. And the reason I call it an "opportunity" is because you have convinced me that we can fall from it (apostacy). However those who are saved and who utilize that opportunity (who don't apostacize) will "put on Christ". But putting on Christ is an option, then shouldn't also "putting on the new man". Thus if we could neglect to do this, then how could we fail to put on "ourselves" if we are our new man? See I argue that our new man is formed already perfect in Chirst, thus we are not completely "enveloped" (by "putting on") in our new man, because we are not yet perfect. My point rests upon the fact that we are told to "put on Christ" and a parallel command to "put on the new man", so they must be equivalent events. Correct me in my reasoning if you see anythign wrong in it.

 

[Vic C.]

golfjack,

I don't want to sidetrack the current discussion with that so I PM'd you. Perhaps you could do the same with francis if you and him had a particular disagreement on something concerning it, so that the thread isn't highjacked on an arguement about man's constituent parts.

God Bless,

~Josh

... or it could be continued in a thread that was active on this subject not too long ago.

It is most often referred to as the judgment seat of Christ.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

Also look at:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

Sorry to sidetrack... 8-)

 

[francisdesales]

Well let me draw on your point that the righteousness is not of our own doing. We have to draw our righteousness from Christ, which we only can do if we are first saved,

That goes without saying! Being saved means that we take an active role in the presence and promptings of God abiding within us. The fact that Jesus addresses Nicodemus in a manner as if he should have KNOWN tells us that this abiding presence was possible even to the Jews before the Incarnation - of course, retroactively taking into account Christ's salvific work. Knowing that we can do no good unless God abides in us - "saves us", then, should be obvious.

so what you said about taking the "covered position" as having the consequence of EVERYONE going to heaven is not applicable.

Ah, but it is. YOU YOURSELF have already admitted that people can fall away! It doesn't matter WHAT the occasion is, but IF it is possible, even rarely (in your opinion), the fact remains that Christ's initial "covering" of us is not all that is required for us to enter the Kingdom. Those who have the Spirit of God abiding in them must CONTINUE to have the Spirit abiding within them. Any subsequent absence means that the initial "covering" was deemed as cast aside by the individual.

However those who are saved and who utilize that opportunity (who don't apostacize) will "put on Christ".

Paul seems to think that would be natural. But he also realizes that practically speaking, we sometimes do NOT put on Christ - as he himself admits.

But putting on Christ is an option, then shouldn't also "putting on the new man". Thus if we could neglect to do this, then how could we fail to put on "ourselves" if we are our new man?

Again, you are separating men into two warring components. God and the devil are after our souls! Once the "new creation" takes effect, does that mean that Satan has now lost any hope of getting our soul? Peter didn't seem to think so, warning Christians to beware of him "prowling like a lion". This battle takes place within us. We are fighting a spiritual war, the result being our eternal destiny. Again, part of us is not going to heaven, the other part to hell! We will go as one part. Our soul will either enter the Kingdom or be cast into hell. Thus, when we "put on Christ", we grow in faith, virtue, hope and charity. When we choose not to put on Christ, that same person falters in faith, virtue, hope and charity. There is not a second person or being inside of us that endures the negative aspects of our choosing of the flesh.

If I falter, I become a slave to sin - not just part of me.

My point rests upon the fact that we are told to "put on Christ" and a parallel command to "put on the new man", so they must be equivalent events. Correct me in my reasoning if you see anythign wrong in it.

Putting on Christ and putting on the new man are synonymous terms. Christ IS the new man, the Second Adam. Christ is man fully realized, as the first Christians liked to write. He is our example on what we are called to be. Thus, when we are called to put on the new man, we are called to take up the ways of that Man, Jesus Christ. HE IS the way. He just doesn't teach the way. He doesn't just know the way. It is THROUGH Him that we are saved. Thus, we must BECOME Him in mindset, in our values, in our self-sacrifice, humility, and obedience to OUR Father.

Regards