cyberjosh
Member
Yes, you are correct - but I was just trying to point out that the Spirit does not permanently dwell in us.
I think this is where you may have been missing what I have been saying. The Spirit has the potential to not permanantly dwell in us, since we can push him away (thus commiting apostacy). However up to that point of apostacy, if it is commited, since the day they were saved the Holy Spirit never left that person. The Holy Spirit's residence in us is not for a short hotel trip to check up on us. The intent and will of God is for Him to remain in us, and all true Christians who have not apostacized have remained abiding in the Spirit and the Spirit in them to this very day since the day they were saved. Only if we push away the Spirit will he leave, and he is a stubborn evictee at that (he will chastize you first).
So when you say, "I would tend to agree with this explanation much more than your initial ones - for example, that Christians CAN and DO fall away. This PROVES that the Spirit does not abide in those who choose to NOT put on Christ." I would say that the Spirit does abide in them up to that point, because he'll only go away if you permanantly evict him. The way you are wording it (perhaps its just ambiguous) it sounds like you make the Spirit out to be hovering over us or near us (but not in us) waiting to see our every move to see whether he should enter us or not. Whether that was your belief or not, that is not true. The Holy Spirit dwells in the individual believer from day one of their salvation and does not leave them unless they renounce their faith. As for me the Spirit has never left me. The only fluctuation in respect to the Spirit's influence on me would be whether I am filled with the Holy Spirit or not. In Acts being filled with the HS is mentioned several times as a repetetive process after salvation but the indwelling of the Spirit upon salvation is mentioned only once in relation to the individual in Acts.
I merely was denying that your take is correct - that the Spirit never will leave the individual.
Yeah but you make it sound like an expectation! Denying that the Spirit never "will"... (as if saying all beleivers should expect...)? He will leave us? No, not unless we commit the difficult and unlikely event of apostacy. Most Christians stick with Christ, and I am glad to say that no one I know has forsaken Christ that is a Christian. BUt surely you didn't mean this at all. It must just be the way you are going about speaking of it or have worded it.
And again, you seem to be changing positions, in my view. Perhaps I just misunderstood you... Previously, it sounded like this "new nature" was something apart from us - and that God would judge THIS new nature. Again, the "fleshy nature" refers to our own "lust of eyes, lust of body, and pride of life" of 1 John. It is ANY attitude that differs and contradicts our Lord and Savior's WAY. Thus, we fight it. Paul is not saying, however, that there are two actual beings or creations within us fighting. It is US who must choose to follow or not the ways of Christ. Will we put on Christ?
Ok now here is where we may have to work a little. Yes I agree that Paul did not endorse some dualistic view of "old nature" vs. "new nature" however when seeing these as choices personified they still become entities. The Bible speaks of the "old man" as an entity and an evil one at that (the flesh) from which evil desires come (James 1:14), and the new nature is a definate new creation from God himself and both of these are in the believer. Now I cannot take a razor and draw a line between the human's soul & spirit and point out where the new nature is and where the old nature is, the Bible just isn't that specific (and to get too speculative would start to enter the philosophical realm), but we do have a new nature from God from which I believe nothing bad comes, this is why we need to "put it on". In a parallel verse we are told to "put on the Lord Jesus Christ". And since the bible says all who are in Christ Jesus are a new creation, then I must believe that the essence of our new nature is from Jesus himself, yet is distinct and personally ours (since it is "in" him). And its not like if you back slide one night and go out and get drunk at a bar that Jesus says, "Oop, he's dabbling in sin, I disown him, he is no longer in me, so I will take away his new nature until he repents". No! The new nature, like the indwelling Spirit is there to stay as a default (with the only - often rare - exeption being apostacy). But that's an exception in God's plan, not the rule (and thank God most of our brtheren live by the rule). We are not walking on thin ice when it comes to our new nature (in relation to flippantly & accidentally throwing it away [losing salvation] - we don't have to be afraid of that - though Satan will certainly beat up new believer on that one big time) unless we blatantly rebell against God and reject him. Then his judgement would come upon us if we did that, but we do have an indwelling new nature which allows us to partake of the Divine nature since it is in Christ, but when we fail to utilize this privilege (Paul calls it "receive(ing) the grace of God in vain") is when we dabble in the flesh, but we don't commit the unforgivable sin flippanty and accidentally, only through persistant and definate defiance against God will such an apostacy happen. This is how I see it.
God Bless,
~Josh