Clear examples of false belief in John & Epistles...?

[francisdesales]

Joe

1 John 3:4-9
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Javier,

I think where some people get confused on is that salvation (to them) is defined as a one-time event, an irrevocable event of the past. To me, when I read Scriptures, salvation is more. To understand the term "salvation", I think it might help to include a synonymous word used by the ancient Christians, and still used by the Church today, although not as much.

That word is "deification". Being saved = becoming deified, in the eyes of those first Christians. We were to become "another" Christ in that we accepted His values, His way of action among others, His humility and obedience to the Father. Now, this is a process, because we all know that none of us wakes up overnight and is "righteous as He is righteous" as 1 John above states. Thus, when we understand that salvation is primarily a process, 1 John above makes sense - since our relationship DOES change with God when we choose to sin or choose NOT to sin. Just like our relationship with our wives changes over the course of time, so our relationship with Christ SHOULD grow - but it doesn't necessarily. Nor does it grow on a straight line up to heaven. We have all likely experienced setbacks in our relationship with God - and I will presume we have all grown from them.

Now let me talk about OSAS.... I hold this view but let me put it in context....

A person is not "saved" if they are a slave to alcoholism. That is basically denying reality. When Christ in the Scriptures "saved" someone, it was in the here and now - that person was freed from some depression or disease or some other form of slavery to sin. TODAY. Thus, if a person is living in alcoholism and enslaved by it, how can one say that they are "saved"? I don't quite understand that denial of reality. Thus, I think I agree with what you were saying! A person claiming the OSAS and living in sin is fooling themselves.

So if a person is a child of God, he is justified....It is God (Holy Spirit) who will walk us through life, through ''his'' strength and ''NOT'' ours and we will persevere...I will also point out that God does not force us to or impute us to persevere, because for a child of God it is an honor to walk through life with God....


I think the question comes down to this. Can a "child of God" fall away? According to Scriptures AND life experience, we see it happens. One Corinthians 10 is a good example for us. Thus, a person's justification/salvation is not only a one time event made in the excitement of the moment of proclamation. "Many will say 'Lord, Lord' - and I [Jesus]will say 'I never knew you'" Think about that. Doesn't this tell us that entering the Kingdom of heaven is reliant NOT on that one moment in the past, but in following (present tense) the Word and Will of God? In your verse above, you say "He who believes" Again, that means "present tense" believes, not "he who once believed 20 years ago"!

When we sin, when we stray, when we back slide, the Holy Spirit is there to bring ''conviction'' and ''NOT'' condemnation to us and bring us back to him....for God will not loose any of his elect....If you are a child of God, you are one of the ''elect''...How do u know if you are one of the elect? Simply put if you have received Gods forgiveness and have accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour of your life, then you are one of the elect....

But you yourself have said that God does not force perseverance on us. Yes, He convicts us - but we have the freedom to ignore this conviction. God "humbles" Himself by allowing us to say "no" to Him. Two Peter 2 has a good example of the person who had fallen away. Peter says that it would have been better had he never come to the knowledge of the truth! There is no OSAS in that statement!

Ignorance is bliss, apparently. A person is culpable for turning their back on God. And thus, the more knowledge that we have about God, the more we will have to answer for those times that we did not fulfill God's will. It is my opinion that Christians especially will be held under the microscope, because "we should know better". That is why I do not believe in the presumptuous idea of OSAS. We have to answer for what we know and how we act - all, of course, under the auspice and power of God's Spirit.

I thank you for your discussion on these issues in this pleasant manner.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

Francis,

Please help me out here. I want to understand you but it seems you are contradicting yourself. Please clear this up for me.

Earlier you equated the new man with Christ. In keeping with that thought, you said:

Again, the new man is not an irreversible and ontological covering placed over us that gives us free reign to do what we want, since "Christ covers us". The new man is the result of putting on Christ. But do we ALWAYS and DAILY CHOOSE the new man?

This position I am most prone to agree with: that the new man is not chosen every day. Yet you go on to use "new man" in a completely opposite way where we are the new man and we must put on one of two other things:

Now when we understand that there are not two men inside us at war but one new man and two natures – one old mindful fleshly nature and another new spirit controlled nature at war, then we can understand the choices that the new man has to endure so he cannot one day find himself outside of Christ.

Now if we are commanded to "put on" our new man then how could we be our new man? If the new man can be put off then that would mean we could put off ourselves (which makes no sense) if we are our new man. Why are you taking it in two different senses? This contradicts itself. Are we our new man and have to put on something else, or are we a soul (mind) that must put on the new man?

I continue to disagree with your appropriation of the CONTINUOUS indwelling of the Spirit in the Church community to the individual. The Spirit is not active in a person who is willfully sinning. By his fruits, he is known! WHAT is known? That the Spirit is absent.

Wait now, what you just said is tantamount to saying that the Holy Spirit leaves us every time we indulge in the flesh, and only returns when we repent. That is also what you said here:

From such verses, I see that while we abide in Christ, we are being transformed. We are being MADE righteous, just as He is righteous (of course, not to the same degree). But this is based on our NOT sinning! This is based on OUR following the promptings of Him who abides in us. When we obey Christ, it is because He abides in us. It seems from this, when we sin, Christ is not abiding in us, and when we are righteous, Christ is abiding in us.

Jesus doesn't jump in and out of us like a jack-in-the-box. Jesus also said he would never forsake us, though obviously we can forsake him. We don't loose the Spirit everytime we sin. I don't think your theology is quite developed on that point. The Holy Spirit is there to stay unless we permanantly evict him, and when we sin he does not leave, but rather he is grieved. Also don't try to read too much into 1 JOhn without understanding John's writing style. He speaks in absolutes which Paul seldom employs and thus he can make two seemingly contradictory statements as "If we say that we have no sin we decieve ourselves" and at the same time say "Whoever abides in him does not sin". Without understanding that John is speaking of a habitual lifestyle of sin in the latter verse and of singular sins in the former you will contract such a jack-in-the-box theology of whether the Spirit (and Jesus) is abiding in you at the moment). No the Spirit is not fickle about his dwelling place. I think you need to strengthen your position here.

Sincerely,

~Joshua

 

[cyberjosh]

Jgredline,

You wrote:

When I got saved, I was ''justified''....meaning I was no longer under condemnation...But was sealed by the Holy Spirit....I attained my salvation by Grace through faith alone....I did nothing to earn this gift of salvation...

I am glad you emphasize justification more than Joe does. I agree with your position there. Let me however point out one correction which I would make concerning your (seeming) understanding of what it means to be sealed. I rarely disagree with you so please take this into serious consideration. I pushed and pushed Joe on the issue of the seal about half way into this thread until he gave me a meaty post which actually enlightened my understanding of what the seal is. I had always thought of it in the natural sense: You put a seal on something to keep something from being opened or from something getting out (which ever the case may be) and it holds it shut firmly. That is the natural definition that comes to mind when we think of seal. However the Biblical definition as employed in the context of being sealed with the Holy Spirit is, as Joe pointed out, actually used more along the lines of the signatures that were put on seals (impressed on by signet rings & such) to identify something as the possession of someone. This consequently does not automatically imply (contrary to what the natural definition would imply) that the seal cannot be broken. Joe (I believe rightly) paralleled the sign of circumcision with the Seal of the Holy Spirit, meaning having the Spirit impressed upon our heart (as a signet ring) affecting the circumcision of the heart - is a sign just like circumcision, though not all who were circumcised were righteous. Circumcision and the concept of a "seal" are paralleled in Romans 4:11 (which I only really noticed after Joe made the point - funny how that works sometimes) which says, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised."

So I am convinced that the seal is not along the normal lines of the definition of a seal which keeps things in (or out), but rather seeing the seal as a sure fire identifier and mark (a sign) of entering into covenant with God and belonging to him. Within that context though it does not forbid the possibility of the seal being broken and of one apostacizing (which I think there are many verses which demand such a possibility - Hebrews 6:4-6 for example).

Tell me your thoughts.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

I suppose I see things a bit differently. On the one hand, much of what you have both said makes sense and is applicable in how I see initial justification. Nothing we can do can earn salvation. We are forever sealed. Salvation is a gift from above. We agree on that.

Where I guess I have some disagreement on - because of experience and meditation on the Word, is that the Holy Spirit does not FORCE us to persevere. True, He leads us, He prompts us. But I don't believe in the "Calvinist" idea that a person is saved regardless of his own actions. I think we will be able to look back on our lives while standing in front of Jesus and say "yes, I WAS one of the elect - look how the Lord brought me to persevere." But we don't know that today. I believe our actions show that a person has the Spirit. We shouldn't presume we have the Spirit UNLESS we have the fruit of His presence in our lives and throughout our lives.

Joe, I actually agree with the majority of your post, yet I would make one correction though (according to my understanding). You say that we can't know today our election or if the Spirit is with us. I contend that we can: if we are told to make our election sure then I believe we can do it. Also I know the evidences of the Spirit in me, thus I can tell if the Spirit is indeed abiding in me, and "the Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God." (Romans 8:16). Thus I believe I can know if I am a child of promise and if I have the Spirit abiding in me. And the Spirit is what tells me where I went wrong when I sin, thus directing me closer to God. He does not forsake me when I sin but be picks me up and chastizes me, and is grieved, yet forgives me when I repent and points me back toward God. What kind of a Helper would the Holy Spirit be if he left me to fare for myself every time I sinned?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[jgredline]

Javier,

I think where some people get confused on is that salvation (to them) is defined as a one-time event, an irrevocable event of the past. To me, when I read Scriptures, salvation is more. To understand the term "salvation", I think it might help to include a synonymous word used by the ancient Christians, and still used by the Church today, although not as much.

That word is "deification". Being saved = becoming deified, in the eyes of those first Christians. We were to become "another" Christ in that we accepted His values, His way of action among others, His humility and obedience to the Father. Now, this is a process, because we all know that none of us wakes up overnight and is "righteous as He is righteous" as 1 John above states. Thus, when we understand that salvation is primarily a process, 1 John above makes sense - since our relationship DOES change with God when we choose to sin or choose NOT to sin. Just like our relationship with our wives changes over the course of time, so our relationship with Christ SHOULD grow - but it doesn't necessarily. Nor does it grow on a straight line up to heaven. We have all likely experienced setbacks in our relationship with God - and I will presume we have all grown from them.

Joe
Salvation is a one time event. I do not read anyplace in scripture that says one can be un-born again and then re born again....I believe what you are refering to is the ''santification'' process that happens after justification...Santification indeed is a life long process, that indeed does / should bring you closer to ''perfection''...The sanctification process is by no means smooth...There are ups and downs....The more one grows in Christ, the less one sins...To say we become more ''righteous'' I don't think is right, because first, there is not one who is righteous no not one, and so this is why we need a saviour...As soon as we are ''justified'' we are made righteous through Jesus...So when the father sees us, he sees Jesus righteousness....

A person is not "saved" if they are a slave to alcoholism. That is basically denying reality. When Christ in the Scriptures "saved" someone, it was in the here and now - that person was freed from some depression or disease or some other form of slavery to sin. TODAY. Thus, if a person is living in alcoholism and enslaved by it, how can one say that they are "saved"? I don't quite understand that denial of reality. Thus, I think I agree with what you were saying! A person claiming the OSAS and living in sin is fooling themselves.

Yes, I agree with you here 100%...It really is a shame that so many folks are fooling themselves....

So if a person is a child of God, he is justified....It is God (Holy Spirit) who will walk us through life, through ''his'' strength and ''NOT'' ours and we will persevere...I will also point out that God does not force us to or impute us to persevere, because for a child of God it is an honor to walk through life with God....

I think the question comes down to this. Can a "child of God" fall away? According to Scriptures AND life experience, we see it happens. One Corinthians 10 is a good example for us. Thus, a person's justification/salvation is not only a one time event made in the excitement of the moment of proclamation. "Many will say 'Lord, Lord' - and I [Jesus]will say 'I never knew you'" Think about that. Doesn't this tell us that entering the Kingdom of heaven is reliant NOT on that one moment in the past, but in following (present tense) the Word and Will of God? In your verse above, you say "He who believes" Again, that means "present tense" believes, not "he who once believed 20 years ago"!

Well Joe, here lies the problem.....''Can a child of God fall away?''...No...A child of God will persevere until the end...When Jesus says ''I never knew you''...He is not saying I once knew you, but now I don't....Jesus is saying exactly that. I never knew you...I believe Jesus is speaking of folk like Benny Hinn, Jimmy Carter, JW, Mormons, etc....These folks have never known Jesus...You can tell that by their poison fruit....During the sanctification process, people fall down, they sin, they get discouraged, they do somethings that are completely against what God teaches, but that does not mean they have lost their salvation....I can tell you right now that I sin allot less than I did 10 years ago and 20 years ago and 2 weeks ago...

The main problem that I see about having to ''worry'' about loosing your salvation is that it quickly becomes a works based salvation when that is clearly against scripture....It puts you in control over your salvation instead of the Holy Spirit...Remember it is God who saves, not us.....

When we sin, when we stray, when we back slide, the Holy Spirit is there to bring ''conviction'' and ''NOT'' condemnation to us and bring us back to him....for God will not loose any of his elect....If you are a child of God, you are one of the ''elect''...How do u know if you are one of the elect? Simply put if you have received Gods forgiveness and have accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour of your life, then you are one of the elect....

But you yourself have said that God does not force perseverance on us. Yes, He convicts us - but we have the freedom to ignore this conviction. God "humbles" Himself by allowing us to say "no" to Him. Two Peter 2 has a good example of the person who had fallen away. Peter says that it would have been better had he never come to the knowledge of the truth! There is no OSAS in that statement!

Joe, again here is the difference...Do we have the choice ''free will'' to ignore the HS? ''YES'', I have been guilty of this...Does this mean I lost my salvation? ''NO'', What I lost was peace with the Lord and depending on context of the sin, rewards...all sin has consequences...just different degrees....As far as what we are told in 2 peter, this person has ''knowledge'' of the truth, but does not mean he was saved...In fact Peter is quite clear that this knowledgeable person was not saved....Again he will here the words, ''I never knew you''

Ignorance is bliss, apparently. A person is culpable for turning their back on God. And thus, the more knowledge that we have about God, the more we will have to answer for those times that we did not fulfill God's will. It is my opinion that Christians especially will be held under the microscope, because "we should know better".

I thank you for your discussion on these issues in this pleasant manner.

Regards

Joe. Again I agree with you here...and I too have enjoyed the discussion....
In discussing this issue of Salvation, we see the works of God the father, Jesus and the HS....Which is quite cool...I see allot of problems for those folks who do not believe Jesus or the HS to be God.....
Blessings,
javier

 

[jgredline]

Francis, I actually agree with the majority of your post, yet I would make one correction though (according to my understanding). You say that we can't know today our election or if the Spirit is with us. I contend that we can: if we are told to make our election sure then I believe we can do it. Also I know the evidences of the Spirit in me, thus I can tell if the Spirit is indeed abiding in me, and "the Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God." (Romans 8:16). Thus I believe I can know if I am a child of promise and if I have the Spirit abiding in me. And the Spirit is what tells me where I went wrong when I sin, thus directing me closer to God. He does not forsake me when I sin but be picks me up and chastizes me, and is grieved, yet forgives me when I repent and points me back toward God. What kind of a Helper would the Holy Spirit be if he left me to fare for myself every time I sinned?

God Bless,

~Josh

Amen, I will work on putting something simple on justifcation and what it means...Be right back

 

[jgredline]

So I am convinced that the seal is not along the normal lines of the definition of a seal which keeps things in (or out), but rather seeing the seal as a sure fire identifier and mark (a sign) of entering into covenant with God and belonging to him. Within that context though it does not forbid the possibility of the seal being broken and of one apostacising (which I think there are many verses which demand such a possibility - Hebrews 6:4-6 for example).

Tell me your thoughts.

God Bless,

~Josh

Josh...Yes, you are correct...
Lets look a little closer....for the sake of context, I am posting Paul's thought...but will be looking at verse 16...

Romans 5:12-21 NKJV
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Greek word that Paul used for condemnation in verse 16 is κατάκριμα / katakrima...This was the word that was used in court system of the day and simply put, it meant you were dammed to death....
Now the Paul follows this κατάκριμα / katakrima with ''but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.[/b]''....Now follow with me here...The Greek word that Paul used here for justification is δικαίωμα / dikaioma....This word was also used in the court system and means that you were found innocent of all charges and are completely aquited....In the Roman culture you were also given papers to show you are completely guiltless of all offenses...So when Paul is writing his letter, he is using terms that were used in the Romans courts because once something was proclaimed law, it was law and nothing could change that. There was no appeal system.....

So it is no mistake that Paul used two words that were used in the Roman courts and are exact opposites of each other.....So paul used the strongest words he knew, words that folks would understand....

So jumping ahead to verse 18 ''Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.''

So Paul here continues with the theme of the Roman Court system....I believe with my explanation above, verse 18 now makes sense....

So to be Justified is like cart blanche with Jesus name on the card....Glory to God....

I hope this answers your question....I put it together by memory...so hopefully I covered your question.
Blessings, Javier






.

 

[francisdesales]

Please help me out here. I want to understand you but it seems you are contradicting yourself. Please clear this up for me.

Earlier you equated the new man with Christ.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself very well. The "new man" is not ontologically and personally Christ, but Christ's EFFECT within us that enables us to love. We don't become the essence of Christ. We don't become natural sons of God. We become adopted. We become LIKE the Son as a result of the transformation, the conversion that takes place with initial justification.

Jesus doesn't jump in and out of us like a jack-in-the-box. Jesus also said he would never forsake us, though obviously we can forsake him. We don't loose the Spirit everytime we sin.

I don't subscribe to the "jack-in-the-box" theology, but I DO see in Scriptures where it says when we sin, Christ no longer abides within us. 1 John tells us we KNOW Christ abides in us WHEN we are obeying the commandments. When we sin, he further says we are NOT abiding in Christ. What does "abiding" mean? It must refer to some special relationship between the loved and beloved that, for the moment, is reciprocal. When we sin mortally, as 1 John says, what happens? We die spiritually. IF Jesus IS eternal life - and we have died spiritually, that means that Jesus is no longer abiding within us. Our relationship is, for the time being, broken.

Now, a broken relationship does NOT mean we are no longer sons of the Father. Even in human relations, when a parent and child fight and separate, the legal relationship exists. The child is STILL the child of the parent. That has happened, in the past, and cannot change. The same in our relationship with God. When we become children of God through Baptism, we are marked, branded, by the Spirit. Nothing can change that. We are born from above. But we can break the relationship. We can't change the fact that we were born from above, but it doesn't follow that we still remain in a loving relationship with God at that point.

Now, what sort of action "causes" Jesus to no longer abide within us? We define that as a mortal (deadly) sin. This would be a serious act against God's Will, done knowingly and with full knowledge that it IS a serious offense. It is a willful cutting off ourselves from God. I do not believe these sins happen "daily" or even "monthly" to affect the jack-in-the-box effect. A serious Christian RARELY would commit such sins. Thus, while I defend this point of view, please be aware that I am defending something that is not common. I am refuting the view that Christ NEVER leaves us. But I am not suggesting the opposite, that He leaves us at any little fault or sin.

I don't think your theology is quite developed on that point. The Holy Spirit is there to stay unless we permanantly evict him,

I don't subscribe to the "one strike and God's out of here" idea, since Jesus says we are to forgive seventy times seven times. Thus, God certainly is always ready to forgive a repentant sinner who has fallen away - even the sin of apostacy. When we sin mortally, our spiritual life is dead because the LIFE has left us! But that is not necessarily a permanent eviction.

No the Spirit is not fickle about his dwelling place. I think you need to strengthen your position here.

No. But we should be careful of presuming that the Spirit guaranteed to the Church is given to us individually as an irrevocable guarantee to us. When we leave the Church, we are not of the Body. When we leave the Body, the Spirit no longer dwells in us. The Spirit only comes to the Church (this does not mean the "Roman Catholic Church") and dwells within. An individual that is not united to Christ's Body does not have Christ's Spirit.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Francis, I actually agree with the majority of your post, yet I would make one correction though (according to my understanding). You say that we can't know today our election or if the Spirit is with us.

Let me clarify that - that is not entirely what I meant.

We can know of our relationship with God TODAY. If I was to DIE TODAY, I can have some sort of confidence that of what my relationship with God is by the fruits of the Spirit working in me TODAY. However, I do not believe we can know our FUTURE relationship with God. Will we apostacize? Who knows? We can "swear that I will never desert you, Lord" with Peter, but we know what can happen when we are put under extreme stress! Thus, I can "know" today that I am in a justified position with God based on my limited obedience (not perfect) to the Commandments. My point was that we cannot know if we are of the elect UNTIL the day we are called to God's judgment seat. If I am called today, I feel relatively confident that I will not be sent to hell - based on God's righteousness and promises that He has made in Scriptures to save those who obey Him.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Salvation is a one time event. I do not read anyplace in scripture that says one can be un-born again and then re born again....

Ah, yes. Here is the problem. We are defining terms a bit differently. Scriptures note that salvation is a past event. But it also defines it as an ongoing AND a future act. The word "salvation" means "to be healed". In one sense, we ARE healed when we are born again in the Spirit. We are never "unborn" again - but WE MAY require "re-healing"! Thus, in that sense, I DO need to be "saved" when I fall into post-Baptismal sin. There is no denying it. We all sin after receiving the Spirit. Some of us may even become attached to the slavery of a particular sin - AFTER they have received the Spirit. Above, I have posted some examples of Scripture noting this. Thus, it is Scriptural AND something we have all seen in other people. People require "re-healing".

As such, limiting the word "salvation" to the one time born from above experience is an incomplete view of the rich and deep meaning of the word. As I asked before (taking the more fuller meaning of the word) - "How can I say I am saved if I am now living in sin as an alcoholic?"

Jesus came to heal people TODAY - not give them "do not open until your death" cards that guaranteed a free ride on the bus to heaven... Thus, when the "already saved" people need to repent AGAIN, we have an advocate in Jesus who is always ready to forgive again. He DID say that we should forgive seventy times seven, so we know that HE would as well.

When taking this view, I hope you can see why "justification, sanctification, and salvation" have synonymous meanings. How am I viewed by God today? Am I becoming more holy today? Am I healed from sin today?

See how they are all related? The interrelation is so strong that we can really say they mean the same thing. If I am becoming sanctified, I certainly am justified. But if I fall into the slavery of sin and require "salvation", how sanctified am I until I ask for repentance?

Well Joe, here lies the problem.....''Can a child of God fall away?''...No...A child of God will persevere until the end...

I suppose it depends on what end you are looking from. If it is "through" God's eyes, He knows who will persevere. "After" the fact, it will become obvious who is/was God's children in this world. However, from our eyes looking into the future, I don't see that guarantee given. Remember, the Israelites were ALSO called "children of God". I urged you to read 1 Cor 10:1-12 as an example. Paul relates the story of the Jews falling in the desert, a sign that we are not to be presumptuous. Note 1 Cor 10:12 - Beware that YOU do not fall - speaking to Christians! I think we need to be careful when reading Paul, because he can be confusing (as 2 Peter wrote). I believe when Paul is talking about not losing our heavenly inheritance, he is PRESUMING that the community will not falter. But practically speaking, he realizes that people DO falter. See 1 Cor 6:9-10. We should balance these verses together.

I can tell you right now that I sin allot less than I did 10 years ago and 20 years ago and 2 weeks ago...

"Past performance does not guarantee future results"! Thus, we are not to be presumptuous. People fall away. That is why the majority of the NT books have perseverance as a major theme.

Do we have the choice ''free will'' to ignore the HS? ''YES'', I have been guilty of this...Does this mean I lost my salvation? ''NO'', What I lost was peace with the Lord and depending on context of the sin, rewards...

Again, see above regarding definitions. When we lose our peace in God, we DO need to be "saved" again - in the context of healing. Nothing can take away our sonship. But when if the Prodigal Son never returned? When IF he never came back. Certainly, the Father still would have loved him and longed for his return. But Father wouldn't have gone looking for him. And as such, would he have inherited Life? We only have Life when He abides in us. He abides in us when we are obeying His Commandments. That is what the Commandments do. Not only do they bring us peace and happiness, they are THE sign that Christ abides in us.

Joe. Again I agree with you here...and I too have enjoyed the discussion....
In discussing this issue of Salvation, we see the works of God the father, Jesus and the HS....Which is quite cool...I see allot of problems for those folks who do not believe Jesus or the HS to be God.....

Yes, we indeed are brothers in Christ.

Regards

 

[jgredline]

Yes, we indeed are brothers in Christ.

Regards

Joe
I believe this is a good place to end this conversation as I agree with your above statement.....I look forward to the next topic of conversation...