francisdesales
Member
jgredline said:Joe
1 John 3:4-9
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Javier,
I think where some people get confused on is that salvation (to them) is defined as a one-time event, an irrevocable event of the past. To me, when I read Scriptures, salvation is more. To understand the term "salvation", I think it might help to include a synonymous word used by the ancient Christians, and still used by the Church today, although not as much.
That word is "deification". Being saved = becoming deified, in the eyes of those first Christians. We were to become "another" Christ in that we accepted His values, His way of action among others, His humility and obedience to the Father. Now, this is a process, because we all know that none of us wakes up overnight and is "righteous as He is righteous" as 1 John above states. Thus, when we understand that salvation is primarily a process, 1 John above makes sense - since our relationship DOES change with God when we choose to sin or choose NOT to sin. Just like our relationship with our wives changes over the course of time, so our relationship with Christ SHOULD grow - but it doesn't necessarily. Nor does it grow on a straight line up to heaven. We have all likely experienced setbacks in our relationship with God - and I will presume we have all grown from them.
jgredline said:Now let me talk about OSAS.... I hold this view but let me put it in context....
A person is not "saved" if they are a slave to alcoholism. That is basically denying reality. When Christ in the Scriptures "saved" someone, it was in the here and now - that person was freed from some depression or disease or some other form of slavery to sin. TODAY. Thus, if a person is living in alcoholism and enslaved by it, how can one say that they are "saved"? I don't quite understand that denial of reality. Thus, I think I agree with what you were saying! A person claiming the OSAS and living in sin is fooling themselves.
jgredline said:So if a person is a child of God, he is justified....It is God (Holy Spirit) who will walk us through life, through ''his'' strength and ''NOT'' ours and we will persevere...I will also point out that God does not force us to or impute us to persevere, because for a child of God it is an honor to walk through life with God....
I think the question comes down to this. Can a "child of God" fall away? According to Scriptures AND life experience, we see it happens. One Corinthians 10 is a good example for us. Thus, a person's justification/salvation is not only a one time event made in the excitement of the moment of proclamation. "Many will say 'Lord, Lord' - and I [Jesus]will say 'I never knew you'" Think about that. Doesn't this tell us that entering the Kingdom of heaven is reliant NOT on that one moment in the past, but in following (present tense) the Word and Will of God? In your verse above, you say "He who believes" Again, that means "present tense" believes, not "he who once believed 20 years ago"!
jgredline said:When we sin, when we stray, when we back slide, the Holy Spirit is there to bring ''conviction'' and ''NOT'' condemnation to us and bring us back to him....for God will not loose any of his elect....If you are a child of God, you are one of the ''elect''...How do u know if you are one of the elect? Simply put if you have received Gods forgiveness and have accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour of your life, then you are one of the elect....
But you yourself have said that God does not force perseverance on us. Yes, He convicts us - but we have the freedom to ignore this conviction. God "humbles" Himself by allowing us to say "no" to Him. Two Peter 2 has a good example of the person who had fallen away. Peter says that it would have been better had he never come to the knowledge of the truth! There is no OSAS in that statement!
Ignorance is bliss, apparently. A person is culpable for turning their back on God. And thus, the more knowledge that we have about God, the more we will have to answer for those times that we did not fulfill God's will. It is my opinion that Christians especially will be held under the microscope, because "we should know better". That is why I do not believe in the presumptuous idea of OSAS. We have to answer for what we know and how we act - all, of course, under the auspice and power of God's Spirit.
I thank you for your discussion on these issues in this pleasant manner.
Regards