[_ Old Earth _] Climate change

[jasonc]

I don't think so. It seems she equated it with tree-hugging, which is quite another thing. People who are primarily political, on the left or on the right, have little understanding of what ecology actually means.



If that much fertilizer is running off from agricultural land, then the farmers are idiots. And few of them are idiots. Most of that fertilizer is really from yokels trying to make their lawns greener than the next guy. So they over-fertilize and cause all sorts of run-off problems.

But yes, I got the issue. In Asia, it's the reverse. Enclosures for shrimp and other seafood are often over-fertilized in the same sort of stupidity, and eventually this causes problems for the flora around the lagoon.

The farmers it's just simple grass and home uses such as mine.all water leads to the laggon and ocean.the problem is not farming.it's more of water discharges from the big lake that does that. People like green grass if you don't water and fertilize it .it dies.I know my wife let my yard go there so all I have is dead parts and weeds and some grass.some want year round greenery.the free market saw thus and sells more friendly grass. Citrus nor much of the ag can't be held for this current pollution.there's not many groves left.I just looked at the nitrogen levels the main relief canal is the lowest the highest is near homes whom I know have nice yards.

 

[Barbarian]

Yep. Farmers aren't going to put any more nitrogen on their fields than the plants can use. It's pretty stupid to do otherwise. Homeowners don't have the same sense, I guess.

I let buffalo grass dominate my lawn. It grows slower, needs water about once or twice a month,and hangs in there all summer. Looks a little rougher than bermuda, but it works for me.

 

[Mike S]

Alarmist accusations have been just a pretext for silencing scientists and other opponents.

AGW has become an obsession and a religion for the left, and why not, it offers them a great opportunity to exercise their totalitarian instincts. They've even set up their new Court of Inquisitors to punish anyone who dare to disagree with them. Who is the new Torquemada, I wonder, maybe Al Gore? He's certainly pompous enough.

Heretics will be punished.

16 Democrat AGs Begin Inquisition Against ‘Climate Change Disbelievers’ - http://dailysignal.com/2016/04/04/1...uisition-against-climate-change-disbelievers/
The coalition of 17 inquisitors are calling themselves “AGs United for Clean Power.” The coalition consists of 15 state attorneys general (California, Connecticut, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Virginia, and Washington State), as well as the attorneys general of the District of Columbia and the Virgin Islands. Sixteen of the seventeen members are Democrats, while the attorney general for the Virgin Islands, Claude Walker, is an independent.

The inquisitors are threatening legal action and huge fines against anyone who declines to believe in an unproven scientific theory.

When pressed on the effect such investigations and prosecutions will have on free speech, General Schneiderman claimed that climate change dissenters are committing “fraud” and are not protected by the First Amendment.

This comes on top of U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch admitting that the Justice Department is discussing the possibility of pursing civil actions against climate change deniers, and that she has already “referred it to the FBI to consider whether or not it meets the criteria for which” federal law enforcement could take action.

 

[brewmama]

LOL. Quoting James Hanson as an expert? What a joke.

On May 2 do not miss this film! Check your theaters!

 

[brewmama]

 

[brewmama]

 

[brewmama]

They weren't. It's deniers doing what they do best. A study of climatology papers from the 1970s, shows the overwhelming majority of climate scientists even then were concerned about warming. Would you like me to show you that?

So all these stories were just made up put of thin air?
News articles*:
1970 – Colder Winters Held Dawn of New Ice Age – Scientists See Ice Age In the Future (The Washington Post, January 11, 1970)
1970 – Is Mankind Manufacturing a New Ice Age for Itself? (L.A. Times, January 15, 1970)
1970 – New Ice Age May Descend On Man (Sumter Daily Item, January 26, 1970)
1970 – Pollution Prospect A Chilling One (Owosso Argus-Press, January 26, 1970)
1970 – Pollution’s 2-way ‘Freeze’ On Society (Middlesboro Daily News, January 28, 1970)
1970 – Cold Facts About Pollution (The Southeast Missourian, January 29, 1970)
1970 – Pollution Could Cause Ice Age, Agency Reports (St. Petersburg Times, March 4, 1970)
1970 – Pollution Called Ice Age Threat (St. Petersburg Times, June 26, 1970)
1970 – Dirt Will .Bring New Ice Age (The Sydney Morning Herald, October 19, 1970)
1971 – Ice Age Refugee Dies Underground (The Montreal Gazette, Febuary 17, 1971)
1971 – U.S. Scientist Sees New Ice Age Coming (The Washington Post, July 9, 1971)
1971 – Ice Age Around the Corner (Chicago Tribune, July 10, 1971)
1971 – New Ice Age Coming – It’s Already Getting Colder (L.A. Times, October 24, 1971)
1971 – Another Ice Age? Pollution Blocking Sunlight (The Day, November 1, 1971)
1971 – Air Pollution Could Bring An Ice Age (Harlan Daily Enterprise, November 4, 1971)
1972 – Air pollution may cause ice age (Free-Lance Star, February 3, 1972)
1972 – Scientist Says New ice Age Coming (The Ledger, February 13, 1972)
1972 – Scientist predicts new ice age (Free-Lance Star, September 11, 1972)
1972 – British expert on Climate Change says Says New Ice Age Creeping Over Northern Hemisphere (Lewiston Evening Journal, September 11, 1972)
1972 – Climate Seen Cooling For Return Of Ice Age (Portsmouth Times, ‎September 11, 1972‎)
1972 – New Ice Age Slipping Over North (Press-Courier, September 11, 1972)
1972 – Ice Age Begins A New Assault In North (The Age, September 12, 1972)
1972 – Weather To Get Colder (Montreal Gazette, ‎September 12, 1972‎)
1972 – British climate expert predicts new Ice Age (The Christian Science Monitor, September 23, 1972)
1972 – Scientist Sees Chilling Signs of New Ice Age (L.A. Times, September 24, 1972)
1972 – Science: Another Ice Age? (Time Magazine, November 13, 1972)
1973 – The Ice Age Cometh (The Saturday Review, March 24, 1973)
1973 – Weather-watchers think another ice age may be on the way (The Christian Science Monitor, December 11, 1973)

 

[brewmama]

1974 – New evidence indicates ice age here (Eugene Register-Guard, May 29, 1974)
1974 – Another Ice Age? (Time Magazine, June 24, 1974)
1974 – 2 Scientists Think ‘Little’ Ice Age Near (The Hartford Courant, August 11, 1974)
1974 – Ice Age, worse food crisis seen (The Chicago Tribune, October 30, 1974)
1974 – Believes Pollution Could Bring On Ice Age(Ludington Daily News, December 4, 1974)
1974 – Pollution Could Spur Ice Age, Nasa Says(Beaver Country Times, ‎December 4, 1974‎)
1974 – Air Pollution May Trigger Ice Age, Scientists Feel (The Telegraph, ‎December 5, 1974‎)
1974 – More Air Pollution Could Trigger Ice Age Disaster (Daily Sentinel – ‎December 5, 1974‎)
1974 – Scientists Fear Smog Could Cause Ice Age (Milwaukee Journal, December 5, 1974)
1975 – Climate Changes Called Ominous (The New York Times, January 19, 1975)
1975 – Climate Change: Chilling Possibilities (Science News, March 1, 1975)
1975 – B-r-r-r-r: New Ice Age on way soon? (The Chicago Tribune, March 2, 1975)
1975 – Cooling Trends Arouse Fear That New Ice Age Coming (Eugene Register-Guard, ‎March 2, 1975‎)
1975 – Is Another Ice Age Due? Arctic Ice Expands In Last Decade (Youngstown Vindicator – ‎March 2, 1975‎)
1975 – Is Earth Headed For Another Ice Age? (Reading Eagle, March 2, 1975)
1975 – New Ice Age Dawning? Significant Shift In Climate Seen (Times Daily, ‎March 2, 1975‎)
1975 – There’s Troublesome Weather Ahead (Tri City Herald, ‎March 2, 1975‎)
1975 – Is Earth Doomed To Live Through Another Ice Age? (The Robesonian, ‎March 3, 1975‎)
1975 – The Ice Age cometh: the system that controls our climate (The Chicago Tribune, April 13, 1975)
1975 – The Cooling World (Newsweek, April 28, 1975)
1975 – Scientists Ask Why World Climate Is Changing; Major Cooling May Be Ahead (PDF) (The New York Times, May 21, 1975)
1975 – In the Grip of a New Ice Age? (International Wildlife, July-August, 1975)
1975 – Oil Spill Could Cause New Ice Age (Milwaukee Journal, December 11, 1975)
1976 – The Cooling: Has the Next Ice Age Already Begun? [Book] (Lowell Ponte, 1976)
1977 – Blizzard – What Happens if it Doesn’t Stop? [Book] (George Stone, 1977)
1977 – The Weather Conspiracy: The Coming of the New Ice Age [Book] (The Impact Team, 1977)
1976 – Worrisome CIA Report; Even U.S. Farms May be Hit by Cooling Trend (U.S. News & World Report, May 31, 1976)
1977 – The Big Freeze (Time Magazine, January 31, 1977)
1977 – We Will Freeze in the Dark (Capital Cities Communications Documentary, Host: Nancy Dickerson, April 12, 1977)

 

[brewmama]

1978 – The New Ice Age [Book] (Henry Gilfond, 1978)
1978 – Little Ice Age: Severe winters and cool summers ahead (Calgary Herald, January 10, 1978)
1978 – Winters Will Get Colder, ‘we’re Entering Little Ice Age’ (Ellensburg Daily Record, January 10, 1978)
1978 – Geologist Says Winters Getting Colder (Middlesboro Daily News, January 16, 1978)
1978 – It’s Going To Get Colder (Boca Raton News, ‎January 17, 1978‎)
1978 – Believe new ice age is coming (The Bryan Times, March 31, 1978)
1978 – The Coming Ice Age (In Search Of TV Show, Season 2, Episode 23, Host: Leonard Nimoy, May 1978)
1978 – An Ice Age Is Coming Weather Expert Fears (Milwaukee Sentinel, November 17, 1978)
1979 – A Choice of Catastrophes – The Disasters That Threaten Our World [Book](Isaac Asimov, 1979)
1979 – Get Ready to Freeze (Spokane Daily Chronicle, October 12, 1979)
1979 – New ice age almost upon us? (The Christian Science Monitor, November 14, 1979)


* A couple of the news stories are duplicates in different papers with slightly different titles, this is intentional to show that these types of stories were not isolated to a certain regional paper.
And from the National Center for Atmospheric Research:

 

[brewmama]

While a silent majority of the scientific community may have been more skeptical, you ironically find one of the most outspoken supporters of modern day Al Gore style global warming alarmism was promoting global cooling in the 1970s, the late Dr. Steven Schneider;

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.“ – Life of Reason, George Santayana

Related articles

• CIA 1974 National Security Threat: Global Cooling/Excess Arctic Ice Causing Extreme Weather (climatedepot.com)
• 1974 Shock News: Global Cooling To Kill One Billion People (junkscience.com)
• NCAR 1974 : Global Cooling And Extreme Weather Is The New Normal(stevengoddard.wordpress.com)

Well, if they were made up back then, perhaps the alarmist stories today are made up as well

 

[Barbarian]

You made my point for me. Notice that all of those are newspapers, popular magazines, etc. Not one from actual scientists. During the 70s, most scientists were already aware that warming was coming:

Contrary to what Crichton, Dobbs, and others might assert, climate scientists never agreed that the Earth was destined for long-term cooling back in the 1970s. Yes, the Earth cooled between 1940 and 1970, but it was exceedingly slight. Scientists now agree that the cooling resulted from excessive use of sulfur-based aerosols. Aerosols only remain in the atmosphere for a short period of time compared to other greenhouse gases, so the aerosol cooling effect faded away as atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations rose. Knowing this, the majority of climate scientists at the time still anticipated warming. A review of climate change literature between 1965 and 1979, undertaken in 2008, found that 44 papers "predicted, implied, or provided supporting evidence" for global warming, while only seven did so for global cooling.
http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/01/the_myth_of_the_global_cooling_consensus.html

You're vulnerable to the deniers only as long as you don't think for yourself. Go and look. Could be a revelation for you, one that a few cherry-picked news articles won't be able to overcome. Even though the climate cooled slightly, scientists already knew carbon dioxide was going to be the real problem. Junk science from your magazines notwithstanding.

BTW, we should actually be entering a little ice age. Solar activity is at a minimum not seen since the late middle ages. And yet the last few years have each been the hottest on record. There is a natural cycle to things, but we are now overriding that cycle. And that is cause for concern.

Ask people who own homes on the Gulf Coast.

 

[Obadiah]

I think you are right. The winters have been less cold where I live over the last couple of years. Praise God for global warming! He's in control, so I praise Him for taking care of us, whether it's a slightly warmer winter or the food on my table, Praise God!

 

[Barbarian]

I think you are right. The winters have been less cold where I live over the last couple of years. Praise God for global warming! He's in control, so I praise Him for taking care of us, whether it's a slightly warmer winter or the food on my table, Praise God!

It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good. Unfortunately, the high plains and Gulf Coast of the United States are likely to do rather poorly in a warmer world. It's already starting. Drought is going to be a permanent feature in larger areas of the West, and warmer winters mean the snow line moves higher, which means less snow melt in the spring. Areas now used for grazing will become arid, and farmland will be suitable only for grazing in many places. And the aquifer under those lands is declining much faster than it can be restored.

Home insurance rates in Gulf states are soaring and insurance companies try to deal with increasing losses from more and more severe storms.

Not so good. We are expected to be good stewards of the things He's given us. And right now, we're not doing so well.

Mrs. Barbarian's daisies are happy, though.

 

[Mike S]

Not so good. We are expected to be good stewards of the things He's given us. And right now, we're not doing so well.

What's makes you think so? Is there some kind of ideal for God's creation of an ever changing world? You know what happens when climate changes? People adapt or move. The earth has gone through multitudes of changes over time, and will continue to do so until end times. And, I really don't think it's a good idea to condemn poor people to endless poverty and early death to save Gaia.

 

[Obadiah]

It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good. Unfortunately, the high plains and Gulf Coast of the United States are likely to do rather poorly in a warmer world. It's already starting. Drought is going to be a permanent feature in larger areas of the West, and warmer winters mean the snow line moves higher, which means less snow melt in the spring. Areas now used for grazing will become arid, and farmland will be suitable only for grazing in many places. And the aquifer under those lands is declining much faster than it can be restored.

Home insurance rates in Gulf states are soaring and insurance companies try to deal with increasing losses from more and more severe storms.

Not so good. We are expected to be good stewards of the things He's given us. And right now, we're not doing so well.

Mrs. Barbarian's daisies are happy, though.

While my post was intended as a little bit tongue in cheek humor, there was also intended to be truth in it, as illustrated by Jesus when he told us "Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself." (Jesus, Matt 6:34 ESV)

I especially like the way the ISV translates the last part of that verse: "Each day has enough trouble of its own."

 

[brewmama]

You made my point for me. Notice that all of those are newspapers, popular magazines, etc. Not one from actual scientists. During the 70s, most scientists were already aware that warming was coming:

Contrary to what Crichton, Dobbs, and others might assert, climate scientists never agreed that the Earth was destined for long-term cooling back in the 1970s. Yes, the Earth cooled between 1940 and 1970, but it was exceedingly slight. Scientists now agree that the cooling resulted from excessive use of sulfur-based aerosols. Aerosols only remain in the atmosphere for a short period of time compared to other greenhouse gases, so the aerosol cooling effect faded away as atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations rose. Knowing this, the majority of climate scientists at the time still anticipated warming. A review of climate change literature between 1965 and 1979, undertaken in 2008, found that 44 papers "predicted, implied, or provided supporting evidence" for global warming, while only seven did so for global cooling.
http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/01/the_myth_of_the_global_cooling_consensus.html

You're vulnerable to the deniers only as long as you don't think for yourself. Go and look. Could be a revelation for you, one that a few cherry-picked news articles won't be able to overcome. Even though the climate cooled slightly, scientists already knew carbon dioxide was going to be the real problem. Junk science from your magazines notwithstanding.

BTW, we should actually be entering a little ice age. Solar activity is at a minimum not seen since the late middle ages. And yet the last few years have each been the hottest on record. There is a natural cycle to things, but we are now overriding that cycle. And that is cause for concern.

Ask people who own homes on the Gulf Coast.

LOL. Plenty of scientists are quoted in those articles. I'm sure you didn't bother to read them, but just spout off your opinion.

It is certainly not unanimous that "CO2 was going to be a real problem." Many scientists view warm weather as a plus, and it is well documented that life does much better in warm climate than cold. Plus plenty of scientists disagree that CO2 is THE driving factor of worldwide climate; the idea is absurd really, if you think about it. (Showing who IS thinking, as opposed to your accusations.)

I've been to the Gulf coast often, I suppose you are trying to blame "global warming" for New Orleans being below sea level and having faulty levees and other protections, mainly due to environmentalists and corruption. And most sinking (falsely dubbed as rising sea level only) which people like you love to blame on CAGW is due to subsidence.

 

[brewmama]

It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good. Unfortunately, the high plains and Gulf Coast of the United States are likely to do rather poorly in a warmer world. It's already starting. Drought is going to be a permanent feature in larger areas of the West, and warmer winters mean the snow line moves higher, which means less snow melt in the spring. Areas now used for grazing will become arid, and farmland will be suitable only for grazing in many places. And the aquifer under those lands is declining much faster than it can be restored.

Home insurance rates in Gulf states are soaring and insurance companies try to deal with increasing losses from more and more severe storms.

Not so good. We are expected to be good stewards of the things He's given us. And right now, we're not doing so well.

Mrs. Barbarian's daisies are happy, though.

Oh, so your are actual claim about the Gulf states is increased and more severe storms? That is absolutely false, even the IPCC admits that. Your other claims are just guesses. There has been a huge amount of snow in the past few years, maybe you missed that.
Do you have any true claims?

 

[Barbarian]

What's makes you think so? Is there some kind of ideal for God's creation of an ever changing world?

Yes. We were given dominion over the Earth, and God makes it clear that we are to be good stewards.

You know what happens when climate changes? People adapt or move.

For example, when the Romans timbered every forest in Israel, the land turned from a garden to a desert. And the rest is history. Not a good thing at all. The Israelis are slowly bringing it back, but it will take many generations.

The earth has gone through multitudes of changes over time, and will continue to do so until end times.

Nevertheless, we can mess things up. And often do, as we are now doing on a global scale.

And, I really don't think it's a good idea to condemn poor people to endless poverty and early death

Sometimes we do that, as in the Sahel, where bad management and weak government has allowed over grazing and bad agricultural practices to destroy the environment, or in the U.S. where a short-term wet period and greed caused the Dust Bowl.

And yes, starvation and poverty followed. We did those to ourselves. The American high plains are trending that way again. For the same reasons.

 

[turnorburn]

Heating up in Iran 165* last year...

Temperatures in Iran have soared as the heat index hit an astonishing 165 degrees Fahrenheit due to a "heat dome."

Temperatures taken in the city of Bandar Mahshahr were among the highest ever recorded, reports the Telegraph.

Weather experts claim the city's heat indexes are among the highest ever recorded.

"That was one of the most incredible temperature observations I have ever seen and it is one of the most extreme readings ever in the world," said meteorologist Anthony Saglia, as reported by the Telegraph.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...r-165-degrees-due-heat-dome-article-1.2312246

looks like the world is moving closer to...

Revelation 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

 

[Barbarian]

Oh, so your are actual claim about the Gulf states is increased and more severe storms?

Not more storms. The model really doesn't show that, and historically there haven't been more. They've increased in intensity. But that's hardly surprising. Have you not noticed that when such storms go over land, they start to die? That's because the storms are driven by heat, gravity, and the rotation of the Earth. And so far, most of the thermal energy increase has ended up in the oceans. So predictably, more thermal energy, stronger storms. (Barbarian checks)

Well, actually, there is some increase in frequency:

But the key is the number of major ones:

To determine whether warmer temperatures affect hurricane intensity, one study began by defining the potential destructiveness of a hurricane based on the dissipation of power, integrated over the lifetime of a hurricane (Emanuel 2005). The Power Dissipation Index is found to increase since the mid-1970s, due to both longer and more intense storms. Hurricane intensity is also highly correlated with sea surface temperature. This suggests that future warming will lead to an increase in the destructive potential of tropical hurricanes.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/hurricanes-global-warming-intermediate.htm

That is absolutely false, even the IPCC admits that.

See the first and second graphs. Reality trumps anyone's opinion.

Your other claims are just guesses.

See the second graph. How could it be otherwise? The first law of thermodynamics may be politically incorrect, but it is what it is.

There has been a huge amount of snow in the past few years, maybe you missed that.

That's a prediction of the model. If water warms up what happens? More evaporation, so more moisture in the air. And warmer air in the winter means snow more often.

Consider, for instance, that sea surface temperatures off the coast of New England are flashing red, showing an extreme warm anomaly. That’s highly relevant — because warmer oceans have atmospheric consequences.


“Sea surface temperatures off the coast of New England right now are at record levels, 11.5C (21F) warmer than normal in some locations,” says Penn State climate researcher Michael Mann. “There is [a] direct relationship between the surface warmth of the ocean and the amount of moisture in the air. What that means is that this storm will be feeding off these very warm seas, producing very large amounts of snow as spiraling winds of the storm squeeze that moisture out of the air, cool, it, and deposit it as snow inland.”


Warmer oceans also increase the temperature contrasts that winter storms encounter when they hit the East Coast, notes Mann — and this ups their strength.


“Heavy snows mean the temperature is just below freezing, any cooler and the amount would be a lot less,” adds Kevin Trenberth, a climate expert at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. “Warmer waters off the coast help elevate winter temperatures and contribute to the greater snow amounts. This is how global warming plays a role.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...fall-in-boston-tells-us-about-global-warming/

This was predicted long before it was verified by heavy snowfalls from warmer water. And of course, the "lake effect" from the Great Lakes requires that the lakes be warmer in order to have a lot of open water. In really cold winters, snow isn't so great. And as you might expect, the heavier snow is concentrated where there are large bodies of water that remained warmer than normal:

There's another issue here; the number of hurricanes strong enough to move into the North Atlantic has greatly increased:

Part of this is due to the fact that warmer water farther north than in previous years is now adding energy to hurricanes.