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Bible Study Compare ORIGINAL Hebrew Words?

Ok, I don't know where to post this. I apologize if this is the wrong place. I am sure someone will "fix". :)

I am comparing original Hebrew words God gave us (or as close as we can find) in an effort to go deeper with God.

I want to know if my ideas and thoughts in the below post have any "solid ground" or not.

Why or why not?

edited reba 2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read: Statement of Faith

God bless.

Duane (we-live-now)
 
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Ok, I don't know where to post this. I apologize if this is the wrong place. I am sure someone will "fix". :)

I am comparing original Hebrew words God gave us (or as close as we can find) in an effort to go deeper with God.

I want to know if my ideas and thoughts in the below post have any "solid ground" or not.

Why or why not?

Are these the Same or Different?

God bless.

Duane (we-live-now)

The post, as it is, has no solid ground but just seems to ask a lot of questions with no real answers. Part of the problem is that you are taking individual parts of a language, which you admit you don't understand, out of their context and supposing apparent differences opens the door for different interpretations. Are these the same or different? Jesus vs. Christ
 
I also see a problem with the understanding of the grammar.
Gen 1:27 And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.
Man is a term used for mankind. It is in the singular form therefore the pronoun him is in the singular.
Male and female describes mankind and is more than one therefore the pronoun them is in the plural.

I do believe man is a three part being but this scripture does not address that.
 
Ok, I don't know where to post this. I apologize if this is the wrong place. I am sure someone will "fix". :)

I am comparing original Hebrew words God gave us (or as close as we can find) in an effort to go deeper with God.

I want to know if my ideas and thoughts in the below post have any "solid ground" or not.

Why or why not?

Are these the Same or Different?

God bless.

Duane (we-live-now)

I would not presume to tell you how to study your bible and what exactly you may be after in your effort to go "deeper" with God. But from my own experience, I have found the effort to dig deeper into the word by studying the original languages and translations had a negative impact on my relationship with the Lord. There is a tendency when we start over analyzing each word in search of a deeper meaning, that we lose sight of the actual spiritual message of the passage. I believe concentrating on the individual words for deeper meaning leads us to make an idol out of the word of God. In the book of Corinthians, Paul reminds us that the letter kills, but the spirit gives life (2 Cor 3:6).

In an effort to go deeper with God, then we must seek after the Spirit; not just the letter. And to get there might just require setting down the written word and your desire to dig for deeper meaning in it, and simply meditate on what you already know the word to say and then wait upon the Lord to reveal to you His understanding. It is often profound in its simplicity, but you must be willing to question your own beliefs, to try and poke holes in the doctrines that you hold to and the Lord will make know his truth in your heart and mind. But if you are not willing to question your own beliefs and challenge their validity, then I guess there would be nothing to gain by studying the original languages, would there?
 
The post, as it is, has no solid ground but just seems to ask a lot of questions with no real answers. Part of the problem is that you are taking individual parts of a language, which you admit you don't understand, out of their context and supposing apparent differences opens the door for different interpretations. Are these the same or different? Jesus vs. Christ

If I provided answers, would you believe them?

I was hoping to stir up a discussion on the ideas and possible truths presented.
 
I also see a problem with the understanding of the grammar.
Gen 1:27 And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.
Man is a term used for mankind. It is in the singular form therefore the pronoun him is in the singular.
Male and female describes mankind and is more than one therefore the pronoun them is in the plural.

I do believe man is a three part being but this scripture does not address that.

Those are good points. I am finding at least 5-6 words in the original Hebrew language that are translated rather generically as "man" in English. But, isn't God much more precise than that? I believe he is 100% precise and when he uses an even slightly different word (barring any verbs), he means something different.

The one in Genesis 1:27 which is Strong's # 120 I am convinced is the tri-part massive spiritual man consisting of a single "him" as the "head" and two "them" (male and female) as "the body". He is better translated as "the man" as all 3 parts of him make up one spiritual man who contains all of creation and all created things inside himself. Col 1:16, 3:11

I am also convinced that the current creation we see (the natural one) is only the female part of the "them". The other two are hidden inside "her" called "Eve". One rules mans soul (female) and one rules mans spirit (him). Jesus is the Son of God and also the "him" of Genesis 1:27, the only one created in God's own image. He is the master of "the man" and ultimately them all.
 
I want to know if my ideas and thoughts in the below post have any "solid ground" or not.
I highly doubt it. Unless you're very well trained in ancient Hebrew and how to translate it, you're playing a very dangerous game. Have you found any scholars that support what you're saying? Why do you think no Bible translation, that I know of, agrees with you? What makes you think you are right, simply by looking at words you don't understand, and all translators (and likely all scholars) are wrong?

Translating the original languages is a very difficult task and one that simply is not done by looking at words to see if they look the same.
 
Ok, I don't know where to post this. I apologize if this is the wrong place. I am sure someone will "fix". :)

I am comparing original Hebrew words God gave us (or as close as we can find) in an effort to go deeper with God.

I want to know if my ideas and thoughts in the below post have any "solid ground" or not.

Why or why not?

Are these the Same or Different?

God bless.

Duane (we-live-now)

Hi Duane,
I often use higlighting of words in original languages to point out where two words are *identical*, eg: for example see the thread on God Man in this same forum, where I point out "Adam" in Greek in multiple places in bold.

However, I try to be careful not to use the opposite technique; pointing out where words are "different" in order to make a definitive argument without knowing the exact word meaning. That's a problem with the page you've linked to.

Exact sameness of spelling implies the ability of a word to have the same meaning, (I think we can agree it doesn't prove it must have the same meaning, but guarantees the potential of it being the same) However differences do not give us much information at all, because often languages have words which are true synonyms.

In the examples given, on the website shown, be aware that word-encoding conventions is also a problem.
As a network programmer, perhaps you (or the author of the page) can understand that comparing UTF-8 vs. ISO codepage strings can be a problem if done raw, and not through appropriate function calls. The same kinds of issues show up in parsing ancient languages... but for low-tech reasons....

Consider an English Example:
There is a difference between these two words "theAdam" and "Adam" -- and someone who knows English conventions would rightly complain that I omitted a "space", and artificially created two "words" where in fact there are three words.

But what I have done is follow a Hebrew Convention of attaching a word particle (the) to the word itself which it modifies.

In the page you link, the exact same issue arises: In Genesis 2:20 it says "the Adam" where you write "the man", and it says "Adam" where you write "Adam". When you ask, are these two words 'different' you neglect to ask -- can you find one word inside the other; is there a chance that one of the words is a 'compound-word' AKA "dish washer" vs. "dishwasher" is an example of compounding a word in English; compound words often do not have much "difference" in meaning, but often just limiting the meaning's scope; In the case of dish washer to dishwasher, the scope goes from a generic idea of anything/one who is a washer of dishes, to a specific kind of machine...

Secondly, Poynting or niqqut dots (markings for vowel hints) did not exist in the Original Hebrew language, so the older copies of Hebrew manuscripts are generally written to make sure there are no word meanings variations based on vowels. But -- IF you compare newer copies of the Hebrew having niqqut/poynting with older Hebrew texts, you are going to find huge numbers of differences where there really are none. The same is true with Greek, with respect to "breathing" marks introduced 100's of years after Christ. These marks are pointless to use in comparisons....

There is nothing wrong with using comparisons of sameness and different-ness in making arguments about what a word might or not mean; just be sure to notice that Even if God is 100% -- human readers never are.
 
Those are good points. I am finding at least 5-6 words in the original Hebrew language that are translated rather generically as "man" in English. But, isn't God much more precise than that? I believe he is 100% precise and when he uses an even slightly different word (barring any verbs), he means something different.

The one in Genesis 1:27 which is Strong's # 120 I am convinced is the tri-part massive spiritual man consisting of a single "him" as the "head" and two "them" (male and female) as "the body". He is better translated as "the man" as all 3 parts of him make up one spiritual man who contains all of creation and all created things inside himself. Col 1:16, 3:11

I am also convinced that the current creation we see (the natural one) is only the female part of the "them". The other two are hidden inside "her" called "Eve". One rules mans soul (female) and one rules mans spirit (him). Jesus is the Son of God and also the "him" of Genesis 1:27, the only one created in God's own image. He is the master of "the man" and ultimately them all.

Jesus is not a created being, so He cannot be the(or part of) the created 'him' of Gen 1:27, rather Jesus is God's Own Image, which His created beings are meant to resemble.
 
I highly doubt it. Unless you're very well trained in ancient Hebrew and how to translate it, you're playing a very dangerous game. Have you found any scholars that support what you're saying? Why do you think no Bible translation, that I know of, agrees with you? What makes you think you are right, simply by looking at words you don't understand, and all translators (and likely all scholars) are wrong?

Translating the original languages is a very difficult task and one that simply is not done by looking at words to see if they look the same.

I understand your point. However, I can't help but think....

Is there any human man who is qualified, scholar or not, to look at the words that God gave us and tell us exactly what "God meant"? Isn't that putting a LOT OF POWER in the hands of a human? Also, if we believe and follow what the man says, what if another more "qualified" man comes along and disagrees? Then, what if these different "interpretations" get translated into all kinds of different languages where exact words don't exist?

Wouldn't this be a mess?

What if there is a much simpler way that avoids all that? How about just comparing the original Words to each other?

Can't a simple child look at the original Words (or "signs") and tell us when a difference exists between them? (This means even I could do it!) :)

Can we learn a LOT by simply studying the differences between the original words without knowing or agreeing exactly what they mean?

Some may argue that God gives us a word that "sometimes means this" and "sometimes means that". Sorry, but I would have to disagree. Isn't God outside of all "times"? Isn't the Lord God "one" single, whole? Isn't his word eternal and has no variation or change at all?

Ponder these things. I see them as extremely powerful.

God bless.
 
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Is there any human man who is qualified, scholar or not, to look at the words that God gave us and tell us exactly what "God meant"?
Of course there is. If there weren't, we may as well throw the Bible out since no one would know what God actually meant.

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. (ESV)

Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. (ESV)

Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

Are not teachers those who can teach the Word of God and what it means?

Isn't that putting a LOT OF POWER in the hands of a human?
Only in the sense that we ought to take what God said in the proper way. Great power comes with great responsibility:

Jas 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. (ESV)

Also, if we believe and follow what the man says, what if another more "qualified" man comes along and disagrees? Then, what if these different "interpretations" get translated into all kinds of different languages where exact words don't exist?

Wouldn't this be a mess?
It can be messy, yes, but this is what happens and it only serves to further highlight my point that it is not something that everyone should try. If even scholars disagree, then there simply is no way that the untrained and unlearned are going to fare any better; in fact, they will almost always do much worse.

What if there is a much simpler way that avoids all that? How about just comparing the original Words to each other?
Because that doesn't make sense, especially if one doesn't understand the language. No one should ever do that sort of thing and think they are coming to some understanding of what is being said, in any language.

Can't a simple child look at the original Words (or "signs") and tell us when a difference exists between them? (This means even I could do it!) :)
Seeing that there is a difference, yes, anyone can do that, but understanding what that difference means is something entirely different; that, a child cannot do.

Can we learn a LOT by simply studying the differences between the original words without knowing or agreeing exactly what they mean?
No, we cannot, if we don't know the language. If you don't know what the difference is, how can you learn anything of relevance? All you can know is that they are different in some way but it would tell you absolutely nothing else for understanding what is being said.

Some may argue that God gives us a word that "sometimes means this" and "sometimes means that". Sorry, but I would have to disagree.
You can disagree but you are wrong to do so. Ever heard of heteronyms, words that are spelled the same but have different meanings? If you don't know the original languages of Scripture, how do you even know if a heteronym is being used? Sometimes the same word can have very different meanings and sometimes slight nuances in meaning.

It is a fact that many of the original language words in Scripture can have more than one meaning, just as English words can. Context plays a vital role in knowing what meaning of word should be used. Historical context is very important and occasionally even extra-biblical resources can help.

Isn't God outside of all "times"?
God is said to exist outside of time but what do you mean?

Isn't the Lord God "one" single, whole?
I'm not sure what you're saying here or what your point is.

Isn't his word eternal and has no variation or change at all?
His word is eternal but I don't understand what you mean by "has no variation or change at all."

Ponder these things. I see them as extremely powerful.
Which things? I just don't see anything powerful. There are hermeneutical rules for a reason; scholars and theologians spend years learning the ancient languages for a reason--because it is very difficult to interpret them and doing so without having a good understanding or knowing what one is doing, can lead to all sorts of significant error.
 
Of course there is. If there weren't, we may as well throw the Bible out since no one would know what God actually meant.

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. (ESV)

Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. (ESV)

Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

Are not teachers those who can teach the Word of God and what it means?


Only in the sense that we ought to take what God said in the proper way. Great power comes with great responsibility:

Jas 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. (ESV)


It can be messy, yes, but this is what happens and it only serves to further highlight my point that it is not something that everyone should try. If even scholars disagree, then there simply is no way that the untrained and unlearned are going to fare any better; in fact, they will almost always do much worse.


Because that doesn't make sense, especially if one doesn't understand the language. No one should ever do that sort of thing and think they are coming to some understanding of what is being said, in any language.


Seeing that there is a difference, yes, anyone can do that, but understanding what that difference means is something entirely different; that, a child cannot do.


No, we cannot, if we don't know the language. If you don't know what the difference is, how can you learn anything of relevance? All you can know is that they are different in some way but it would tell you absolutely nothing else for understanding what is being said.


You can disagree but you are wrong to do so. Ever heard of heteronyms, words that are spelled the same but have different meanings? If you don't know the original languages of Scripture, how do you even know if a heteronym is being used? Sometimes the same word can have very different meanings and sometimes slight nuances in meaning.

It is a fact that many of the original language words in Scripture can have more than one meaning, just as English words can. Context plays a vital role in knowing what meaning of word should be used. Historical context is very important and occasionally even extra-biblical resources can help.


God is said to exist outside of time but what do you mean?


I'm not sure what you're saying here or what your point is.


His word is eternal but I don't understand what you mean by "has no variation or change at all."


Which things? I just don't see anything powerful. There are hermeneutical rules for a reason; scholars and theologians spend years learning the ancient languages for a reason--because it is very difficult to interpret them and doing so without having a good understanding or knowing what one is doing, can lead to all sorts of significant error.

Those are all valid points and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to share them.

I agree that he has appointed "teachers", "prophets", "apostles" and others. My question is...

Who exactly are these people?

Are they the ones who are highly esteemed because they have degrees, letters after their names and many people who look up to and follow them?

Or does God use the ones who are looked down upon, weak and despised by the world?

Does he use the wise and intelligent people of the world? Or does he use the weak and despised?

Would God really "show his hand" by using the ones we expect? Or will he use the ones we least expect?
 
Those are all valid points and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to share them.

I agree that he has appointed "teachers", "prophets", "apostles" and others. My question is...

Who exactly are these people?

Paul was one of the brightest students of the Law, a real star pupil; he was a phairsee's parisee ... the brightest of the bright.
God didn't use him like that, though, -- first God humbled him, then he used him to teach, reprove, and be 'the least' of the Apostles.

Does he use the wise and intelligent people of the world? Or does he use the weak and despised?

Doesn't he use both? :poke
But most of all, Doesn't he use the weak to teach the wise in worldly wisdom a lesson when they become proud -- which is often ?
 
Those are all valid points and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to share them.

I agree that he has appointed "teachers", "prophets", "apostles" and others. My question is...

Who exactly are these people?

Are they the ones who are highly esteemed because they have degrees, letters after their names and many people who look up to and follow them?

Or does God use the ones who are looked down upon, weak and despised by the world?

Does he use the wise and intelligent people of the world? Or does he use the weak and despised?

Would God really "show his hand" by using the ones we expect? Or will he use the ones we least expect?
You're dodging the main gist of all my points. God can and does use anyone, that isn't the issue. The problem here is that when we go to the biblical languages, we are dealing with languages that don't exist any more and haven't for a long time. They are difficult to understand at the best of times and translating them is something not to be taken lightly, and should only be done by those who are qualified to do so.

People can learn on their own through various resources, but it takes years and they still ought to get "professional" help and guidance when doing so. What one must not do is simply compare how words look and think that they've come up with some other meaning. The best thing for the untrained and unlearned is to stick to the language that they know and compare various translations and commentaries.
 
I can explain the differences.

Example One
אֹתוֹ
אֹתָם

The form אֵת is grammatical particle. It is not translated because it has no meaning but is the sign of the direct object. The particle sometimes take a suffix. The letter waw (אֹתוֹ in red) is a suffix and means "him." The letter mem (אֹתָם in red) is also a suffix and means "them." There is really nothing mysterious about it. There dozens of example of this in the Hebrew text.

Example Two
הָאָדָם
אָדָם

In both examples the word/name is the same, אָדָם. The first example of the word/name אָדָם has the article (the letter ה is the article). There is no difference in meaning. It is a normal grammatical construction in Hebrew.

Example Three
בָּרָא from Gen. 1:1
בָּרָא from Dan 2:38
Though they make look the same they are not, not even close. The example from Gen. 1:1 is the verb "bara" and means "to create." That example is Hebrew.

The example from Dan 2:38 is not Hebrew but Aramaic. The word there is the noun בַּר which means "field, countryside." The letter aleph (בָּרָא in red) is the article in Aramaic. The Hebrew verb and the Aramaic noun are not related in any way.

The differences between Hebrew and Aramaic are many but they use the same script. Hebrew uses the letter ה for the article and attaches it to the front of the word. Aramaic uses the letter א for the article and attaches it to the end of the word. Without some knowledge of the languages most people simply do not know what they are looking at and therefore cannot understand what is happening.
 
Paul was one of the brightest students of the Law, a real star pupil; he was a phairsee's parisee ... the brightest of the bright.
God didn't use him like that, though, -- first God humbled him, then he used him to teach, reprove, and be 'the least' of the Apostles.



Doesn't he use both? :poke
But most of all, Doesn't he use the weak to teach the wise in worldly wisdom a lesson when they become proud -- which is often ?

I like what you said... that God humbled Paul greatly before he could use him. Otherwise, wouldn't Paul think it was his qualifications that caused either the outcome or God to use him. This verse comes to mind:

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves 2 Cor 4:17

I know I personally struggle with remaining humble in the areas of my strengths. God gave Paul some "extra's" in order to keep him humble because God really wanted to use him.

Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-- to keep me from exalting myself! 2 Cor 12:7

I am convinced if God wants to use us, he first has to CRUSH us and get totally rid of the idea that any of it originates in "us" vs. God. Like Paul said in 2 Cor 4:17, we are merely "earthen vessels" that God puts himself in and uses. This is so none of us can boast. Ephesians 2:9

Still learning that one.... :sad
 
You're dodging the main gist of all my points. God can and does use anyone, that isn't the issue. The problem here is that when we go to the biblical languages, we are dealing with languages that don't exist any more and haven't for a long time. They are difficult to understand at the best of times and translating them is something not to be taken lightly, and should only be done by those who are qualified to do so.

People can learn on their own through various resources, but it takes years and they still ought to get "professional" help and guidance when doing so. What one must not do is simply compare how words look and think that they've come up with some other meaning. The best thing for the untrained and unlearned is to stick to the language that they know and compare various translations and commentaries.

Sorry, maybe I forgot what our actual conversation was about. If there are too many points, I sometimes jump all over and then chase down a rabbit trail.

Can God bypass man completely and teach us through his Spirit directly? What does God say about setting up man as our teacher?

But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ Matthew 23:8-10

We can see according to John 1:38 the word "Rabbi" means teacher.

Turning around, Jesus saw them following and asked, "What do you want?" They said, "Rabbi" (which means "Teacher"), "where are you staying?" John 1:38

Thus, I have to conclude that we are to setup no man directly as our teacher.

This next verse is very succinct and powerful IMHO.

As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him 1 John 2:27

It says to me the Spirit of God is our teacher and not man. Now, could God teach us original Hebrew himself directly?

Yes, he could... right? (My original point I think was that we can possibly learn a lot by comparing and contrasting original words which I believe we can do ourselves. I shared more on that here.)

However, let me address this from a different angle if I may.

Considering 1 John 2:27 above, what if the TRUE Word is the living Word (Spirit) that abides within us? What if each external, original written Word is really a pointer or a "sign" that points to the single, whole living Word within us?

What if only the true, living Word can reveal the actual and true meaning of the written Word? John 14:26 Is it possible they work together this way? Just some other things to consider.
 
I can explain the differences.

Example One
אֹתוֹ
אֹתָם

The form אֵת is grammatical particle. It is not translated because it has no meaning but is the sign of the direct object. The particle sometimes take a suffix. The letter waw (אֹתוֹ in red) is a suffix and means "him." The letter mem (אֹתָם in red) is also a suffix and means "them." There is really nothing mysterious about it. There dozens of example of this in the Hebrew text.

Example Two
הָאָדָם
אָדָם

In both examples the word/name is the same, אָדָם. The first example of the word/name אָדָם has the article (the letter ה is the article). There is no difference in meaning. It is a normal grammatical construction in Hebrew.

Example Three
בָּרָא from Gen. 1:1
בָּרָא from Dan 2:38
Though they make look the same they are not, not even close. The example from Gen. 1:1 is the verb "bara" and means "to create." That example is Hebrew.

The example from Dan 2:38 is not Hebrew but Aramaic. The word there is the noun בַּר which means "field, countryside." The letter aleph (בָּרָא in red) is the article in Aramaic. The Hebrew verb and the Aramaic noun are not related in any way.

The differences between Hebrew and Aramaic are many but they use the same script. Hebrew uses the letter ה for the article and attaches it to the front of the word. Aramaic uses the letter א for the article and attaches it to the end of the word. Without some knowledge of the languages most people simply do not know what they are looking at and therefore cannot understand what is happening.
Hi dear Brother Origen, and welcome to CF.net. Your interest in words is welcome and I would like to ask your opinion as to the correct interpretation of the language used in the KJV with Daniel, or other scripture. The volumes of bibles produced certainly have the propensity to change doctrines, and of course I realize yours is but another viewpoint. Thanks.
 
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