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Bible Study Conditional Immortality

D

Doulos Iesou

Member
Hi All,

The thread "Annihilationism and the Gospel," has gotten kind of dated and a little off focus. This new thread is to discuss Conditional Immortality/Annihilationism and it's opposing views at length and in greater detail.

Also, in this thread we will be elevating the discussion and therefore will seek to treat everyone with dignity, respect and love.

Blessings in Christ,
DI
 
Thank you so much DI for starting this thread. Although, being Baptist, the word annihilationism is against what we believe for the unsaved. There are many words like "punishment" in the lake of fire, but I see "torture" Now, because of your instructions, you have opened my eyes to the possibility of an end to that torture. I need to know what you believe, I have an open heart and mid.
 
Doulos Will you please give your simple definition to :
Conditional Immortality and Annihilationism,
This is mine:
Conditional Immortality = We in Christ have immortality those outside of Christ do not. John 3:16
Annihilationism = What i would term death as in no heart beat or brain waves... separation from God.
 
Chopper said:
Thank you so much DI for starting this thread. Although, being Baptist, the word annihilationism is against what we believe for the unsaved. There are many words like "punishment" in the lake of fire, but I see "torture" Now, because of your instructions, you have opened my eyes to the possibility of an end to that torture. I need to know what you believe, I have an open heart and mid.
Click to expand...
Hi Chopper, I will now briefly outline what I believe on this subject and we can go from there to relevant texts or whatever questions you may have for me.

Conditional Immortality is built on the proposition that God alone is the one who has immortality, and that mankind is not innately immortal. Just as Adam ate from the tree of life in the garden, we must partake of the one who gives life, Jesus Christ, in order to obtain immortality. Therefore, those who remain in their sins receive the wages they earned which is death. This is an everlasting punishment as there is no third resurrection, but only a second death where the person is cut off from God forever. There may be a period of time in which the person is being punished, and will be determined by the amount of wickedness committed. However, the ultimate punishment outlined in Scripture is the destruction of the person's entire being.

I do not believe the wicked are conscious in death prior to the second resurrection, but the righteous (those in Christ) go to rest and enjoy the peaceful presence of Jesus leading up to the resurrection as they never truly die. However, the resurrection, the physical creation is central in this theology as it is built around the restoration of God's good creation. Where he is not allowing evil to continue and multiply in his realm, but rather is destroying evil once and for all. He will not wipe the tears from our eyes because evil is being tortured forever, but because it has passed away.

God's anger is but for a moment, but his mercy endures forever.

I may have missed a couple things, but I wanted to simply proclaim my beliefs on the subject and you can ask questions or raise objections now if you'd like.

Blessings in Christ,
DI
 
reba said:
Doulos Will you please give your simple definition to :
Conditional Immortality and Annihilationism,
This is mine:
Conditional Immortality = We in Christ have immortality those outside of Christ do not. John 3:16
Annihilationism = What i would term death as in no heart beat or brain waves... separation from God.
Click to expand...
Hi reba,

Sure thing!

Conditional Immortality = God alone has immortality, and because we are in Christ we share in the immortality that is from God. Man is not innately immortal, his life must be sustained by God.
Annihilationism = The utter destruction of both body and soul is accomplished in hell. The wicked are resurrected and condemned to the second death from which there is no return or third resurrection.

So it is separation from God and his blessings, but not conscious (or least ultimately not conscious after a brief period).
 
Hi DI, thank you for that explanation. My Daughter showed up for a short visit from Maine. Her husband's Mother lives here in Massachusetts. My Daughter and I were discussing our topic. Her reply was pretty much what mine has been all these years. "I am saved! I just don't want to think about the lost"! Then we talked about my Brother who is not a Christian but lives a life as if he was. So I said, "I just can't believe that God would punish him forever." She agreed.

As I said before, this is the first time that I'm forced to face the future of the unsaved. As a Baptist, I used to look at Revelation 20:10-15 and see the words cast, or thrown, into the lake of fire.......and will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So a simple look at these verses, looks like the unsaved will spend forever and ever in the lake of fire. Why should I believe anything different?
 
Chopper said:
Hi DI, thank you for that explanation. My Daughter showed up for a short visit from Maine. Her husband's Mother lives here in Massachusetts. My Daughter and I were discussing our topic. Her reply was pretty much what mine has been all these years. "I am saved! I just don't want to think about the lost"! Then we talked about my Brother who is not a Christian but lives a life as if he was. So I said, "I just can't believe that God would punish him forever." She agreed.

As I said before, this is the first time that I'm forced to face the future of the unsaved. As a Baptist, I used to look at Revelation 20:10-15 and see the words cast, or thrown, into the lake of fire.......and will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So a simple look at these verses, looks like the unsaved will spend forever and ever in the lake of fire. Why should I believe anything different?
Click to expand...
Hi Chopper,

I appreciate your honest assessment of the matter, and I would agree with your perspective on Revelation 20:10-15. I will present a couple ways that annihilationists have dealt with these texts, Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 14:9-11 (which goes into even more detail).

Position #1 (the one I don't support)
There are many who believe only demonic forces will be punished forever, which includes those who receive the mark of the beast.

Position #2 (the one I do support)
That the straight-forward interpretation of this passage is ill-advised. Now is this just a rejection of the literal approach for my own purposes, or is there justification for such a position? Well, the book of Revelation is Apocalyptic literature which contains a lot of symbolic and metaphorical language as it did in the Old Testament. Much of the response to liberalism has since over-emphasized the need to literally interpret the Bible, even when proper hermeneutics dictate that we shouldn't.

My question then, is if there are any instances of this imagery being used else where that indicates a metaphorical interpretation? You'll find the answer and the evidence interesting I hope.

Going back to the OT Apocalyptic literature, we find Isaiah prophesying the destruction of Edom in Isaiah 34, where he writes.

And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever. Isaiah 34:9-10 (ESV)

And now compare to Revelation 14:10-11

he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Revelation 14:10-11 (ESV)

Now, in Edom it said that the smoke from it shall rise forever. Does it still rise forever today? No.
It said that it will always lie waste. Does it still lie in waste today? No.
It said that none will ever pass through it. Does anyone pass through it today? Yes, there is a highway where ancient Edom was.

Now if we understand this imagery literally, we come to see that this didn't actually happen. Unless like many other prophecies this imagery is hyperbole to speak about the permanent destruction of Edom. Therefore, as this imagery is employed elsewhere as hyperbole to describe permanent destruction, I view the texts in Revelation 14 and Revelation 20 in this Hebriac way.

Also here is an image that might be helpful in looking at some of the various views on the matter.

helltriangle_med_detail.png
 
Doulos Iesou said:
Hi Chopper,

I appreciate your honest assessment of the matter, and I would agree with your perspective on Revelation 20:10-15. I will present a couple ways that annihilationists have dealt with these texts, Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 14:9-11 (which goes into even more detail).

Position #1 (the one I don't support)
There are many who believe only demonic forces will be punished forever, which includes those who receive the mark of the beast.

Position #2 (the one I do support)
That the straight-forward interpretation of this passage is ill-advised. Now is this just a rejection of the literal approach for my own purposes, or is there justification for such a position? Well, the book of Revelation is Apocalyptic literature which contains a lot of symbolic and metaphorical language as it did in the Old Testament. Much of the response to liberalism has since over-emphasized the need to literally interpret the Bible, even when proper hermeneutics dictate that we shouldn't.

My question then, is if there are any instances of this imagery being used else where that indicates a metaphorical interpretation? You'll find the answer and the evidence interesting I hope.

Going back to the OT Apocalyptic literature, we find Isaiah prophesying the destruction of Edom in Isaiah 34, where he writes.

And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever. Isaiah 34:9-10 (ESV)

And now compare to Revelation 14:10-11

he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Revelation 14:10-11 (ESV)

Now, in Edom it said that the smoke from it shall rise forever. Does it still rise forever today? No.
It said that it will always lie waste. Does it still lie in waste today? No.
It said that none will ever pass through it. Does anyone pass through it today? Yes, there is a highway where ancient Edom was.

Now if we understand this imagery literally, we come to see that this didn't actually happen. Unless like many other prophecies this imagery is hyperbole to speak about the permanent destruction of Edom. Therefore, as this imagery is employed elsewhere as hyperbole to describe permanent destruction, I view the texts in Revelation 14 and Revelation 20 in this Hebriac way.
Doulos Iesou said:
Hi Chopper,

I appreciate your honest assessment of the matter, and I would agree with your perspective on Revelation 20:10-15. I will present a couple ways that annihilationists have dealt with these texts, Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 14:9-11 (which goes into even more detail).

Position #1 (the one I don't support)
There are many who believe only demonic forces will be punished forever, which includes those who receive the mark of the beast.

Position #2 (the one I do support)
That the straight-forward interpretation of this passage is ill-advised. Now is this just a rejection of the literal approach for my own purposes, or is there justification for such a position? Well, the book of Revelation is Apocalyptic literature which contains a lot of symbolic and metaphorical language as it did in the Old Testament. Much of the response to liberalism has since over-emphasized the need to literally interpret the Bible, even when proper hermeneutics dictate that we shouldn't.

My question then, is if there are any instances of this imagery being used else where that indicates a metaphorical interpretation? You'll find the answer and the evidence interesting I hope.

Going back to the OT Apocalyptic literature, we find Isaiah prophesying the destruction of Edom in Isaiah 34, where he writes.

And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever. Isaiah 34:9-10 (ESV)

And now compare to Revelation 14:10-11

he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Revelation 14:10-11 (ESV)

Now, in Edom it said that the smoke from it shall rise forever. Does it still rise forever today? No.
It said that it will always lie waste. Does it still lie in waste today? No.
It said that none will ever pass through it. Does anyone pass through it today? Yes, there is a highway where ancient Edom was.

Now if we understand this imagery literally, we come to see that this didn't actually happen. Unless like many other prophecies this imagery is hyperbole to speak about the permanent destruction of Edom. Therefore, as this imagery is employed elsewhere as hyperbole to describe permanent destruction, I view the texts in Revelation 14 and Revelation 20 in this Hebriac way.

Also here is an image that might be helpful in looking at some of the various views on the matter.

helltriangle_med_detail.png
Click to expand...

Also here is an image that might be helpful in looking at some of the various views on the matter.

helltriangle_med_detail.png
Click to expand...


Hi DI,

Don't you think those in Rev 14:11 are alive on earth while they're being tormented?
 
I am pretty much in agreement with DI with the exception that I don't believe the believer is conscious between death and the resurrection.
 
By Grace said:
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You will not post any messages; links, images or photos promoting another religion. Atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule. This is a Christian Forum as the name suggests.
Discussion of Full Preterism, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Serpent seed, Dual Seed or Two-Seedline doctrine will be allowed only in the 1 on 1 Debate Forum.
(bold red emphasis added)

Is it now acceptable to promote another religion of a different sort, meaning universalism?

Isn't the graphic triangle an image that promotes a different religion promoting another religion?

AIso, is the belief in universalism no longer a heresy? IMHO, it is both a heresy and an abomination because it trashes the nature, extent and the particularity of the Atonement of Jesus.

I could go on, but suffice to know that the author of the OP has surely "outed himself" as a universalist, and NOW he is actively advocating a false religion

Please delete the thread, or else please lock it.
:lock:lock:lock:lock:lock

Thank you.
Click to expand...
Hi By Grace,

You clearly did not read my post, but I am a Conditionalist/Annihilationist and NOT a universalist. I even said that I have opposed universalism several times today. The graphic is simply an informative tool used to understand the different perspectives on the subject.

I'm not sure why you have it out for me, but please read my posts before you report them. This thread was opened at the request of a moderator (Chopper) and Annihilationism is not deemed outside of the Christian faith.

So if you would like to dispute my claims you are welcome to do that, but please don't derail my thread.

Thanks!
DI
 
Annihilationism is not the same as universalism. Learn what the terms mean before falsely accusing someone. And leave moderating to the mods and admin.
 
Doulos Iesou said:
Hi All,

The thread "Annihilationism and the Gospel," has gotten kind of dated and a little off focus. This new thread is to discuss Conditional Immortality/Annihilationism and it's opposing views at length and in greater detail.

Also, in this thread we will be elevating the discussion and therefore will seek to treat everyone with dignity, respect and love.

Blessings in Christ,
DI
Click to expand...

Gday Dl,

Can you tell me in the doctrine of CI and annihilation of the wicked what do you suggest sends a person into the LoF ?
 
reba said:
Doulos Will you please give your simple definition to :
Conditional Immortality and Annihilationism,
This is mine:
Conditional Immortality = We in Christ have immortality those outside of Christ do not. John 3:16
Annihilationism = What i would term death as in no heart beat or brain waves... separation from God.
Click to expand...

That would be an acceptable definition of death of the body.

Where do you believe the spirit/soul of a person goes at the death of the body?


What would your definition of the second death be.


JLB
 
Butch5 said:
I am pretty much in agreement with DI with the exception that I don't believe the believer is conscious between death and the resurrection.
Click to expand...


Where does the believer go when their body dies?


JLB
 
JLB said:
That would be an acceptable definition of death of the body.

Where do you believe the spirit/soul of a person goes at the death of the body?


What would your definition of the second death be.


JLB
Click to expand...
Why do you suppose there is an immortal nature to mankind? God alone has immortality, whether or not he maintains the life of the wicked after death in some kind of corporeal existence is unknown, but I personally don't see it.

The second death happens after the resurrection of the wicked, where they are judged for the deeds they have done, the sins they committed. Their whole being is then destroyed and that is the second and final death.

It makes sense too, they died physically once and they then rise again to die again for their actions.
 
agua. said:
Gday Dl,

Can you tell me in the doctrine of CI and annihilation of the wicked what do you suggest sends a person into the LoF ?
Click to expand...
Well it says that they were judged according to what they have done, and also because they rejected Christ and thus were not written in the lamb's book of life.

Is that agreeable?
 
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