Doulos Iesou
Member
Can you elaborate on how you interpret these verses?
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Bible Study Conditional Immortality
- Thread starter Doulos Iesou
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Butch5
Member
It says,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:10-11 KJV)
Worship, receive, and ascendeth up, are present tense. It seems the smoke is ascending while they are worshiping the beast. I don't think this passage can used to support the ECT doctrine. Also if verse 12 says,
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Rev 14:12 KJV)
It seems there are saints in the same place where these are being tormented. We know that the saints aren't in Gehenna so I don't think those being tormented are either.
Doulos Iesou
Member
Hmm, I guess I should say why I don't hold to this interpretation.
In v.10 where it says, "the same shall drink," that "shall" is Future tense and in the indicative mood which expresses the temporal element of the word. This denotes a punishment being rendered in the future.
In v.11 I think you're reading too much into the present tense, which denotes a continual action not necessarily taking place in the present. The temporal period for this event would take place in the future per a proper exegesis of v.10, if that was not stated then perhaps your exegesis of v.11 could be possible.
The "here" isn't about a location, but rather "here is the reason for our call to patience and endurance as God's people," God will punish heavily (in the future) those who take the mark in the present.
Very simple ...I dont know. Growing up i accepted hell as a big ball of fire, in the center of the earth, bad guys burning forever... So much of the understanding of this topic has to do with our interpretations of someone elses words. Now I say i dont know. I will not get into this discussion.
Butch5
Member
Ok, ascendeth and receive are in the indicative mood. As I understand it, in the indicative mood the time element does come into play. I agree verse 10 is speaking of the future. It seems to me that verse 9 and 10 are speaking of what is to come regarding those who take the mark and verse 11 is speaking of it happening.
I used to understand "here" in verse 12 the way you suggested, however, with the definition of, in this place, it seems to me to put both groups in the same place at the same time.
Doulos Iesou
Member
They are also in the indicative mood, but the time of the event was established in v.10. And the time elements associated with the ascending is the words from "the ages to the ages," I see this as hyperbolic and metaphorical language of course as I already established.
However, it could possibly be that the future tense is in regards to our perspective, looking to the future where these people would be tormented.
When exactly do you see this taking place, describe the event if you could.
Also, how do you reconcile Revelation 20:10?
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? John 11:25-26
He who believes in Me shall NEVER DIE!
Do you believe this!
JLB
chessman
Member
Yes, that's interesting AND evidential. Thanks for sharing. You touched on the "smoke of their torture" phrase and there's also other passages like the Is 34 passage that present this same phraseology that I'm sure you are aware of.
Might I add something about this "worshiping the beast" phrase or “Beasts” in general and compare that type of language throughout the Bible in a similar manner as you have for “smoke of their torture going up forever and ever”:
Note first (though I will not cover it) the same type of thing could be done (and really should be done by the serious student) with respect to studying God's wrath, i.e.His "cup of wrath" or "mixed full strength" or “rest day and night”, etc. etc. It’s very interesting and informative, no matter one’s view of eschatology.
But what in the world is going on within John's vision of these Beasts? Why is Jesus giving a vision to John with Beasts in it in the first place? The 20,000 feet view?
Rev 14:9 …saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself also will drink of the wine of the anger of God that has been mixed full strength in the cup of his wrath, and will be tortured with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torture went up forever and ever, and those who worshiped the beast and his image did not have rest day and night, along with anyone who received the mark of his name.
For some broad context relative to the Rev 14 and/or Rev 20 passages and in an attempt to better understand this type of language, let’s study (with an open mind) what John possibly could be meaning with “And the smoke of their torture went up forever and ever, and those who worshiped the beast and his image did not have rest day and night”?
For the “smoke of their torture” see Is 34 as you mentioned or Gen 19:28 & 2 Peter 2:6, etc.
But what’s up with this “beast” worshiping that has God so mad at them that He would torture them for it? Maybe we should look at who/what this beast is. In an attempt to determine what/who this beast is, I searched and studied it quite a bit.
Quick. What chapter and verse is the following passage from?
I was looking in my vision …And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, differing from one another.
Well, it must be right there in Rev 11, right? It’s where John first mentions a “beast”. Rev 11:7 says; “…the beast that comes up from the abyss…” so that must be it, right. No, that’s not it.
What about in Rev 13, the previous chapter in John’s vision to the Rev 14:9-11 verses. It must be there, right? Rev 13:1 And I saw coming up out of the sea a beast that had ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten royal headbands, and on its heads a blasphemous name. But no, that’s not where I found “the beast from the sea” at either.
No, we first read about a beast from the sea in Daniel 7:2. And low and behold, what else do we find in Daniel 7? Daniel not only talks about one beast but four beasts, just like John’s vision does. Hmm? What’s up with that? What's up with John's fourth Beast having ten horns and Daniels' too?
"and it had ten horns" per Daniel 7:7
I seem to recall that Daniel was initially left somewhat confused by his visions yet some of them were actually interpreted for him and explained to him. Maybe we should study Daniel along with Revelation?
I’d been told my whole Christian life by my pastors/deacons that Daniel and Revelation are two of the most complex books of the Bible. And I suppose that’s true. But what it meant for me (the way I applied that to my study) is that I avoided studying them. Thinking myself not capable of fully understanding them. Which is true, I still don’t fully understand them.
However, there are some aspects within both of them that are completely understandable, now that I’ve looked. And guess what, these “beasty” things are quite understandable (and likely was also to any other person familiar with Daniel's word at that time, like those in the churchs). Here’s why:
Daniel 7: 15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was troubled within me, and the visions of my head terrified me. 16 So I approached one of the attendants and I asked him about the truth concerning all this; and he told me that he would make known to me the explanation of the matter. 17 ‘These great beasts which are four in number are four kings who will arise from the earth.”
Okay, I get that. Daniel’s Beasts represent kings and/or kingdoms. That’s clear enough.
And in an attempt to keep this post to a reasonable length, I’ll just say if you don’t think John’s vision of Beasts is directly related and consistent with Daniel’s Beasts, then go read both books and present your case as to why they are not related. Then I’ll present my case as to why they ARE.
Oh, and within Daniel’s explanation of the Beasts, we have this:
Dan 7:23 “And he said, ‘The fourth beast is the fourth kingdom that will be on the earth that will be different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth and it will trample it and it will crush it.
Sound familiar? It should. What comes right before this famous “smoke of their torture went up forever and ever” passage?
Rev 14:8 “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, who caused all the nations to drink from the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality.”
And now, let’s just jump to “The Rest of the Story” according to Daniel’s interpretation (not mine):
25 And he [the fourth Beast] will speak words against the Most High, and he will wear out the holy ones of the Most High [sound like a tribulation to anyone?], and he will attempt to change times and law [, and they will be given into his hand for a time and two times and half a time. 26 Then the court will sit, and his dominion will be removed, to be eradicated and to be destroyed totally. 27 And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the nation of the holy ones of the Most High; his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey him [Jesus].’
And back within Daniel’s vision what do we learn?:
Daniel 7:11 I continued watching until the beast was slain and its body was destroyed, and it was given over to burning with fire. 12 And as for the remainder of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but a prolongation of their life was given to them for a season and a time.
Hmm, given “over to a burning fire” sound familiar?
etc. etc. etc. (my post is to long already)
Anyway, my point is (Doulos Iesou and other's,I’m sure you are already aware of my point) that to read Rev 14:9-11 or Rev 20:10 or Luke 16, in a vacuum without also reading the rest of the Bible is to miss out on much of the richness of God’s Word and expose yourself to much potential for error in Biblical interpretation. I’m not saying I have all the answers. I’m still learning. But one thing I have learned in this study is that John’s vision and Daniel’s vision BOTH came from the Lord and are consistently true.
Doulos Iesou
Member
Chopper
Member
:amen
Doulos Iesou
Member
Some good stuff in here Chessman, can't say I disagree with anything that you've said.
Doulos Iesou
Member
This to me is acceptable, if one simply understands that there is a judgment coming and that God will render a severe punishment on the wicked, they can preach the gospel.
This is what Paul preached in the Areopagus.
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:30-31 (ESV)
Chopper
Member
Hello Chessman, glad you could make it here. I'm going to explain a few things about this thread in my next post. I have found in the past that you appear very knowledgeable in the Scriptures, especially in the area we are discussing. So welcome, and I hope you enjoy yourself while we discuss these doctrines.
Chopper
Member
NOTICE: I would like everyone who will be posting in this thread started by Doulos, as an answer to the outcome of the souls who do not believe in the Christ. The final stage after they have been judged for the last time and cast into the lake of fire, how long will their torment last? Forever? or limited time.
This is to be a thread led be Doulos, he is our teacher for this subject. I do not want him on the defensive, that accomplishes nothing for our subject. I as well as you, want our questions answered in a pleasant way so he can give us facts. I you don't agree with him, please don't attack him! Simply ask questions.
Doulos and I want this to be an enjoyable experience as well as educational, so lets all have fun, and respect our teacher, Doulos....Thank you.
This is to be a thread led be Doulos, he is our teacher for this subject. I do not want him on the defensive, that accomplishes nothing for our subject. I as well as you, want our questions answered in a pleasant way so he can give us facts. I you don't agree with him, please don't attack him! Simply ask questions.
Doulos and I want this to be an enjoyable experience as well as educational, so lets all have fun, and respect our teacher, Doulos....Thank you.
Doulos Iesou
Member
Hi Chopper,
Thanks for the refocusing of the thread, appreciate it. I last spoke generally about what it is I believe, and now I would like to move onto where I get this from Scripture and how is it I reconcile this with problem passages.
I will admit that some texts read a bit easier with the traditional understanding of hell, at least it did for my mind. However, a doctrine must not just make sense of one or two verses but must be able to explain all of the relevant texts on the subject. One could try and argue that the Bible teaches both, but my mission is to find harmony and I believe this can be done on the matter.
The two texts that traditionalists (those who believe in the conscious eternal torment of the wicked) often use on the matter are Revelation 20:10(and Revelation 14:9-11) and most often used is probably Matthew 25:46. I will use this post to address this problem passage, and then my next post (after answering any questions you all may have) will be to present the Biblical case for Annihilationism from the passages that I believe are more clear on the subject.
Let's look at the text now.
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matthew 25:46 (ESV)
The traditionalist will look at this and say, "the punishment is described as having the same length as eternal life, therefore eternal punishment is everlasting just as eternal life is without end." This is a line of reasoning that Annihilationists have no problem agreeing to. We believe that the meaning of "aionios" in this context does in fact mean everlasting, eternal and permanent. We believe that there is no return from the destruction God renders, which is therefore a denial of universalism, the idea that some could perhaps be redeemed (in the case of the traditional view) or resurrected (in the case of the Annihilationist view) and then enter God's New Creation. It is only the Universalists and perhaps a few Annihilationists who argue from the meaning of the word "aionios."
This could be manifested in a couple different forms, some argue that the meaning of eternal (aionios) here means a limited amount of time. They derive this by appealing to a closer translation of the word "age-long," and then say that this is an indefinite time modified by the noun it accompanies. This is often the case, but here it is appealing to the age to come, which is unending so I don't think this particular argument holds.
Another argument and one I find possible, is the qualitative meaning of the word eternal. Meaning that the eternal life and eternal punishment are not denoting the length of the life and punishment, but rather the quality of the punishment. That this is the life associated with the age to come, and that the punishment received is that associated with the age to come, which in this verse is unspecified. I find this an agreeable interpretation and is one that I lean towards sometimes.
Regardless, the punishment is not actually described in v.46, but rather in v.41, where it states:
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41 (ESV)
The punishment is described as "eternal fire," does this mean unending fire? It is not clear, but it could also mean the "fire which comes from God," or, "the fire which is of the age to come." I personally lean towards it being God's very fire that he uses to destroy the wicked.
I believe much light can be shed on this by examining the only other instance where this punishment is used.
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7 (ESV)
Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example for us by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Now what was the result of the eternal fire?
if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:6 (ESV)
He turned the inhabitants and the cities into ashes, and this punishment is an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly. They will not be tortured and kept immortal for all eternity, rather they are to be utterly destroyed by the fire of God that consumes.
This is how we reconcile that text.
Blessings,
DI
Chopper
Member
Very well done! I really like the way you put these verses together. You remind me of my Theology Professor in College. If you don't mind, could you explain a little about yourself? You obviously have had a high and wonderful education. The way you present your findings, I suspect you have taught before. I therefore have a great admiration and respect for you and hope the others will realize that you know what you're talking about.
I am with you so far, and I don't think I have any questions at this point. Your focus on the severity of punishment, and the length of time that you have already alluded to, is of interest to me. Also, concerning the body/soul & spirit, or, body, soul, and spirit, which ever position you hold, what happens to the soul & spirit once the body is destroyed....If you're not ready to cover that, I'm ok with that, just wanted you to know that I need that info.
God bless you, people die for the lack of knowledge.
I am with you so far, and I don't think I have any questions at this point. Your focus on the severity of punishment, and the length of time that you have already alluded to, is of interest to me. Also, concerning the body/soul & spirit, or, body, soul, and spirit, which ever position you hold, what happens to the soul & spirit once the body is destroyed....If you're not ready to cover that, I'm ok with that, just wanted you to know that I need that info.
God bless you, people die for the lack of knowledge.
chessman
Member
This is exactly how I understand this passage as well. It's interesting also to notice a couple of other observations: (If I'm butting in inappropriately just say so, but I assume you’ve two guys have made this a public thread for a reason).
1. I whole heartily believe that this passage (Matt 25:46) is on topic/timeframe. That is that it’s teaching about their final punishment (the wicked “Goats” that is). Some of the other “ECT proof texts”, not so much. But I assume you’ll get to some of those other’s later. Maybe even going back to more detail on Rev 14. Which to me is obviously not talking about a post judgment punishment treatment of the wicked to begin with. To me Rev 14 is prior to the GWTJ within John’s vision. I get this understanding about Matt 25:46 from Jesus’ introduction of the sheep/goat illustration: 31 Now when the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them from one another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Obviously (at least to me) this passage is in tune with John’s GWTJ account.
2. Why do I think Jesus’ use of the phrase “eternal fire” basically means His Fire, His Fire from all eternity?
a. For the reasons you mention above.
b. Rev 20: 9 And they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the fortified camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and consumed them. This, to me, sounds just about exactly what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. But again, this is about what happens on Earth. I mean, that’s what it says, right? This is prior to John’s vision of the GWTJ.
3. The other observation, in addition to yours, that I make is that contrasting foundation to the sheep’s inheritance to that of the goats. Matt 25: 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world! Though the text doesn’t just come right out and say it, if the inheritance the sheep get was prepared for them “from the foundation of the world, i.e. before the universe began, then what about the inheritance of the goats? Is not Jesus’ implying that their “eternal fire” and their “eternal punishment” just as much so prepared for the goats from times even prior to the creation of the world/universe? I think so.
4. I’ve heard people say that Hell is literally at the center of the Earth (just look at volcanoes for the evidence). Excuse me, but does not Rev 20:9 say that the “eternal fire” comes from Heaven?
Anyway, that's how I see Matt 25:46. I think it teaches annihillation of the wicked forever.
Doulos Iesou
Member
Hi Chopper,
Your kind words of encouragement are greatly appreciated.
I actually have only been a Christian since March of 2011, so I still have much to learn. I have furiously studied the Word though, learning the Greek (still learning) and leading and teaching young men to gain a passion and love for His Word.
I have many great teachers in my life who I am indebted to for what I have learned, and have read more books in the last few years than the rest of my life x1000. lol
I realize though that I don't know everything, and I can but submit to you to the best of my ability what I think God has spoken through his Word. I pray that you look to these Scriptures and seek God for his grace to assist in working these things out. I once had an unhealthy focus of trying to "figure" this out, and a lot of what I have learned is the fruit of this, but I try not to major on this doctrine and keep the gospel as the focus of my ministry. This is not a doctrine that I go around my local church trying to convert everyone to, I discuss it here to learn more about it (having your ideas challenged really helps you figure things out!), but my Pastor knows this is my position and we have a great mentorship relationship.
I believe that I am called to preach and teach the Word, whether that be in a vocational or non-vocational aspect, that is yet to be seen. I have a lot of maturing to do, as I am still a young man (only 26) who often behaves rashly and impatiently.
Concerning your question about what happens to the spirit/soul, this involves an aspect that I have gone back and forth about. The issue of man's nature, whether he has an immaterial soul or spirit in addition to a body is something that I am particularly unsure about, and it would deserve it's own thread to be honest. Butch5 is someone who does a good job at arguing for Monism, that mankind has only a physical nature and is given life by God's breath of life (breath also being translated sometimes as spirit) which will return to God once the man dies. In this view there is no consciousness after death for the believers or unbelievers until the resurrection. I am of the opinion that believers have consciousness after the fact so I would say there is some way in which there is what we call a soul, but I try not to focus so much on that as I don't think the Bible does.
A helpful way to look at it though is understanding a person as a whole being, that they aren't broken up into multiple parts, but that these aspects come together to make a living human being. And in my view, this person's whole being is destroyed in hell, soul and body, which I will elaborate on in my next exegetical post.
I'll start that post now.
Blessings,
DI
Butch5
Member
Hi Guys and Gals,
If no one minds I'd like to add a particular passage of Scripture that deals with the fire of God. I'm sure we're all familiar with the story of Elijah calling down fire from heaven. After mocking the prophets of Ball Elijah calls down fire from God.
30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.
31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water. {ran: Heb. went}
36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
(1Ki 18:30-38 KJV)
Notice that this fire that came from the Lord is not like an ordinary fire. Firstly it consumed from the top down rather than from the bottom up. Secondly it completely consumed everything including the stones of the altar and it says it licked up the water. It even consumed the ashes, there was nothing left
If no one minds I'd like to add a particular passage of Scripture that deals with the fire of God. I'm sure we're all familiar with the story of Elijah calling down fire from heaven. After mocking the prophets of Ball Elijah calls down fire from God.
30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.
31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water. {ran: Heb. went}
36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
(1Ki 18:30-38 KJV)
Notice that this fire that came from the Lord is not like an ordinary fire. Firstly it consumed from the top down rather than from the bottom up. Secondly it completely consumed everything including the stones of the altar and it says it licked up the water. It even consumed the ashes, there was nothing left
Doulos Iesou
Member
Now, moving on to some of the Scriptures that I believe clearly teach Annihilationism.
Let's begin with one of the most popular and decisive texts that we find in Matthew 10.
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 (ESV)
The context of this passage is that Jesus is sending out instructions to the disciples as they begin their ministry abroad. This particular passage is about Jesus telling them to fear God rather than man, and his logic is this: Man can only kill the body, but afterwards the man's soul he can do nothing about. God on the other hand, can destroy both body AND soul in Gehenna (hell). This word "destroy" is the Greek word "apolesai" which is a strong word that describes the violent destruction of one's life. Here is another usage of the term.
Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” Matthew 2:13 (ESV)
Here we have another instance of this same exact word, and it is rightly translated destroy. To demonstrate that it really means to end a life, or end one's existence, v.16 describes that Herod went out and killed all the male children.
What is amazing about this verse though is that it says that God can destroy both body and soul. Most Christians have always imagined that God will torment the souls of the wicked in hell, but Jesus said that he will destroy the wicked utterly.
The popular objection to this interpretation is that it only says that God has the ability to, but not necessarily mentioning that God will do it. I reject this objection though because it makes Jesus' logic here utterly useless. Why would Jesus tell them to fear something that God would never actually do? Or misleading them (and us) to think a certain way about divine judgment. Rather, it makes much more sense to see that Jesus said that they should fear God who can, because they shouldn't fear man who cannot. This Greek word dynamenon appears twice in this passage, and it means "being able." The first instance is where we see in the text, "but cannot kill the soul," and the second instance is, "can destroy both soul.." The fear is based on God's ability, the lack of fear is based on man's inability. This I believe is the proper way to understand this text.
Next, we will look at the most popular passage in the Bible.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 (ESV)
In this glorious and famous text we have one of the clearest proclamations of God's love for all of sinful mankind, such to the degree that he gave his Son so that whoever would believe in Him might have eternal life and not perish.
This word "perish" appears right in here, but it is often overlooked and not talked about. This is actually the same Greek word as in Matthew 10:28, but in the subjective mood and aorist tense. Here is another way to look at the translation.
For God in this manner loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever is believing in Him should not suffer violent destruction but have the eternal life. (My translation)
The word "perish" is derived from the Latin Vulgate translation which was the combination of two different words, "per" which means completely, and "ire" which means to go. These words combined to make up the word "perire," which means to go away completely and denoted the act of dying.
This understanding supports Annihilationism, because we believe that the ultimate punishment of the wicked is death, more specifically the second death that all the wicked will suffer. The alternative to this of course is life, and that being everlasting with God in the New Creation.
The final example I will give (at least for now) is this text.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 (ESV)
Paul here reveals his teaching in a beautiful dichotomy. That the wages of sin is death, wages of course being something that one works for and labors towards. And this is contrasted against the free gift of God, this is not something that we have earned or paid for, but it has been purchased for us and given to us as a gift! This gift being eternal life that is found in Christ Jesus our Lord!! What a beautiful Scripture.
Tying this in of course to our discussion, the end result of sin, the thing that all of the cumulative labor of mankind has earned with their sins is death. They have not merited or warranted a torturous existence, but rather the punishment for sin as outline throughout Scripture, death. ("the soul who sins will die." Ezekiel 18:4)
To sum it up simply, I agree with Paul that the wages of sin is death.
Let's begin with one of the most popular and decisive texts that we find in Matthew 10.
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 (ESV)
The context of this passage is that Jesus is sending out instructions to the disciples as they begin their ministry abroad. This particular passage is about Jesus telling them to fear God rather than man, and his logic is this: Man can only kill the body, but afterwards the man's soul he can do nothing about. God on the other hand, can destroy both body AND soul in Gehenna (hell). This word "destroy" is the Greek word "apolesai" which is a strong word that describes the violent destruction of one's life. Here is another usage of the term.
Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” Matthew 2:13 (ESV)
Here we have another instance of this same exact word, and it is rightly translated destroy. To demonstrate that it really means to end a life, or end one's existence, v.16 describes that Herod went out and killed all the male children.
What is amazing about this verse though is that it says that God can destroy both body and soul. Most Christians have always imagined that God will torment the souls of the wicked in hell, but Jesus said that he will destroy the wicked utterly.
The popular objection to this interpretation is that it only says that God has the ability to, but not necessarily mentioning that God will do it. I reject this objection though because it makes Jesus' logic here utterly useless. Why would Jesus tell them to fear something that God would never actually do? Or misleading them (and us) to think a certain way about divine judgment. Rather, it makes much more sense to see that Jesus said that they should fear God who can, because they shouldn't fear man who cannot. This Greek word dynamenon appears twice in this passage, and it means "being able." The first instance is where we see in the text, "but cannot kill the soul," and the second instance is, "can destroy both soul.." The fear is based on God's ability, the lack of fear is based on man's inability. This I believe is the proper way to understand this text.
Next, we will look at the most popular passage in the Bible.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 (ESV)
In this glorious and famous text we have one of the clearest proclamations of God's love for all of sinful mankind, such to the degree that he gave his Son so that whoever would believe in Him might have eternal life and not perish.
This word "perish" appears right in here, but it is often overlooked and not talked about. This is actually the same Greek word as in Matthew 10:28, but in the subjective mood and aorist tense. Here is another way to look at the translation.
For God in this manner loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever is believing in Him should not suffer violent destruction but have the eternal life. (My translation)
The word "perish" is derived from the Latin Vulgate translation which was the combination of two different words, "per" which means completely, and "ire" which means to go. These words combined to make up the word "perire," which means to go away completely and denoted the act of dying.
This understanding supports Annihilationism, because we believe that the ultimate punishment of the wicked is death, more specifically the second death that all the wicked will suffer. The alternative to this of course is life, and that being everlasting with God in the New Creation.
The final example I will give (at least for now) is this text.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 (ESV)
Paul here reveals his teaching in a beautiful dichotomy. That the wages of sin is death, wages of course being something that one works for and labors towards. And this is contrasted against the free gift of God, this is not something that we have earned or paid for, but it has been purchased for us and given to us as a gift! This gift being eternal life that is found in Christ Jesus our Lord!! What a beautiful Scripture.
Tying this in of course to our discussion, the end result of sin, the thing that all of the cumulative labor of mankind has earned with their sins is death. They have not merited or warranted a torturous existence, but rather the punishment for sin as outline throughout Scripture, death. ("the soul who sins will die." Ezekiel 18:4)
To sum it up simply, I agree with Paul that the wages of sin is death.