Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[Doulos Iesou]

This is exactly how I understand this passage as well. It's interesting also to notice a couple of other observations: (If I'm butting in inappropriately just say so, but I assume you’ve two guys have made this a public thread for a reason).
1. I whole heartily believe that this passage (Matt 25:46) is on topic/timeframe. That is that it’s teaching about their final punishment (the wicked “Goats” that is). Some of the other “ECT proof texts”, not so much. But I assume you’ll get to some of those other’s later. Maybe even going back to more detail on Rev 14. Which to me is obviously not talking about a post judgment punishment treatment of the wicked to begin with. To me Rev 14 is prior to the GWTJ within John’s vision. I get this understanding about Matt 25:46 from Jesus’ introduction of the sheep/goat illustration: 31 Now when the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them from one another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.


Obviously (at least to me) this passage is in tune with John’s GWTJ account.

2. Why do I think Jesus’ use of the phrase “eternal fire” basically means His Fire, His Fire from all eternity?
a. For the reasons you mention above.
b. Rev 20: 9 And they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the fortified camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and consumed them. This, to me, sounds just about exactly what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. But again, this is about what happens on Earth. I mean, that’s what it says, right? This is prior to John’s vision of the GWTJ.
3. The other observation, in addition to yours, that I make is that contrasting foundation to the sheep’s inheritance to that of the goats. Matt 25: 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world! Though the text doesn’t just come right out and say it, if the inheritance the sheep get was prepared for them “from the foundation of the world, i.e. before the universe began, then what about the inheritance of the goats? Is not Jesus’ implying that their “eternal fire” and their “eternal punishment” just as much so prepared for the goats from times even prior to the creation of the world/universe? I think so.
4. I’ve heard people say that Hell is literally at the center of the Earth (just look at volcanoes for the evidence). Excuse me, but does not Rev 20:9 say that the “eternal fire” comes from Heaven?

Anyway, that's how I see Matt 25:46. I think it teaches annihillation of the wicked forever.

Interesting perspective Chessman, I haven't seen it that way, but I'll have to look at it again. I think we share very similar views with slight nuances in each direction I suppose.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi Guys and Gals,

If no one minds I'd like to add a particular passage of Scripture that deals with the fire of God. I'm sure we're all familiar with the story of Elijah calling down fire from heaven. After mocking the prophets of Ball Elijah calls down fire from God.

30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.

31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water. {ran: Heb. went}
36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
(1Ki 18:30-38 KJV)

Notice that this fire that came from the Lord is not like an ordinary fire. Firstly it consumed from the top down rather than from the bottom up. Secondly it completely consumed everything including the stones of the altar and it says it licked up the water. It even consumed the ashes, there was nothing left

Good observation Butch5, additional observations that add to the teachings are more than appropriate!

I'm in no way the sole authority on the subject.

 

[Butch5]

They are also in the indicative mood, but the time of the event was established in v.10. And the time elements associated with the ascending is the words from "the ages to the ages," I see this as hyperbolic and metaphorical language of course as I already established.

However, it could possibly be that the future tense is in regards to our perspective, looking to the future where these people would be tormented.

When exactly do you see this taking place, describe the event if you could.

Also, how do you reconcile Revelation 20:10?

Hi DI,

The way I understand it is that they worship the beast in the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. I believe the this is when the final trumpet judgments will be. Chapter 9 speaks of the these trumpet judgments and fire and brimstone.

14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. {for an hour: or, at an hour}
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (Rev 9:14-21)

Those that didn't die would be tormented by the fire and brimstone.

Chapter 14,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:10-11 KJV)

Ascendeth, have, and receiveth are all present indicatives and worship is a present participle. The way I understand it the three verbs being present indicartive puts them all happening at the same time. That would mean that the smoke was ascending while they have no rest and are worshipping the beast. That's how I understand it.

Regarding Rev. 20:10 I think Tim Warner addressed this passage nicely. Rather than try to explain it I'll link to his post here if that is OK.

 

[agua.]

Well it says that they were judged according to what they have done, and also because they rejected Christ and thus were not written in the lamb's book of life.

Is that agreeable?

Yes it's agreeable Dl I like that you included everything stated in the passage. I've had a little confusion though in regard to people being sent into the LoF ( for destruction ) because of what they had done when everyone has sinned and fallen short. ie. A Christian has sinned and only avoids the LoF because faith in Yahweh and Jesus' atonement. This makes me wonder if the punishment for the wicked is according to their works ( to appease justice ) but the final destination in the LoF is solely because of being in enmity with Yahweh ( unfaithful ).

Oh sorry mate this isn't really important in the context of your thread.

 

[agua.]

Hi DI,

The way I understand it is that they worship the beast in the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. I believe the this is when the final trumpet judgments will be. Chapter 9 speaks of the these trumpet judgments and fire and brimstone.

14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. {for an hour: or, at an hour}
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (Rev 9:14-21)

Those that didn't die would be tormented by the fire and brimstone.

Chapter 14,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:10-11 KJV)

Ascendeth, have, and receiveth are all present indicatives and worship is a present participle. The way I understand it the three verbs being present indicartive puts them all happening at the same time. That would mean that the smoke was ascending while they have no rest and are worshipping the beast. That's how I understand it.

Regarding Rev. 20:10 I think Tim Warner addressed this passage nicely. Rather than try to explain it I'll link to his post here if that is OK.

"Therefore, when Revelation speaks of the "Beast" and the "False Prophet," we need to understand that in each case, we are speaking of TWO entities -- a man and a demonic spirit inhabiting and controlling him." Tim Warner.

This makes sense considering Rev 16.

Rev 16:13-14 KJV And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

 

[JLB]

Of course I do, those who are in Christ have eternal life.

How does this demonstrate that humans are innately immortal?

Where does the spirit of a man in Christ go when his body dies?

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, Hebrews 12:22-23




JLB

 

[Chopper]

This is exactly how I understand this passage as well. It's interesting also to notice a couple of other observations: (If I'm butting in inappropriately just say so, but I assume you’ve two guys have made this a public thread for a reason).
1. I whole heartily believe that this passage (Matt 25:46) is on topic/timeframe. That is that it’s teaching about their final punishment (the wicked “Goats” that is). Some of the other “ECT proof texts”, not so much. But I assume you’ll get to some of those other’s later. Maybe even going back to more detail on Rev 14. Which to me is obviously not talking about a post judgment punishment treatment of the wicked to begin with. To me Rev 14 is prior to the GWTJ within John’s vision. I get this understanding about Matt 25:46 from Jesus’ introduction of the sheep/goat illustration: 31 Now when the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them from one another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.


Obviously (at least to me) this passage is in tune with John’s GWTJ account.

2. Why do I think Jesus’ use of the phrase “eternal fire” basically means His Fire, His Fire from all eternity?
a. For the reasons you mention above.
b. Rev 20: 9 And they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the fortified camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and consumed them. This, to me, sounds just about exactly what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. But again, this is about what happens on Earth. I mean, that’s what it says, right? This is prior to John’s vision of the GWTJ.
3. The other observation, in addition to yours, that I make is that contrasting foundation to the sheep’s inheritance to that of the goats. Matt 25: 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world! Though the text doesn’t just come right out and say it, if the inheritance the sheep get was prepared for them “from the foundation of the world, i.e. before the universe began, then what about the inheritance of the goats? Is not Jesus’ implying that their “eternal fire” and their “eternal punishment” just as much so prepared for the goats from times even prior to the creation of the world/universe? I think so.
4. I’ve heard people say that Hell is literally at the center of the Earth (just look at volcanoes for the evidence). Excuse me, but does not Rev 20:9 say that the “eternal fire” comes from Heaven?

Anyway, that's how I see Matt 25:46. I think it teaches annihillation of the wicked forever.

Hi Chessman, Your are definitely not butting in. We welcome your additions to this subject. I know you from the past as someone who has studied this subject in depth. So thank you for your post and instruction.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Guys and Gals,

If no one minds I'd like to add a particular passage of Scripture that deals with the fire of God. I'm sure we're all familiar with the story of Elijah calling down fire from heaven. After mocking the prophets of Ball Elijah calls down fire from God.

30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.

31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water. {ran: Heb. went}
36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
(1Ki 18:30-38 KJV)

Notice that this fire that came from the Lord is not like an ordinary fire. Firstly it consumed from the top down rather than from the bottom up. Secondly it completely consumed everything including the stones of the altar and it says it licked up the water. It even consumed the ashes, there was nothing left

Thank you Butch for your instruction. You are most welcome to this study. I have been impressed with your knowledge of the Scriptures, in the past, and feel that you have a lot on your mind that you'd like us to be aware of, so "go for it."

Also, would you like to start a thread on the body, soul, and spirit, and what happens to this part of man after the judgment? Or do you think that this topic can merge into this one at some time?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Where does the spirit of a man in Christ go when his body dies?

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, Hebrews 12:22-23




JLB

I think a believer goes to be with Christ after the body dies.

To die is gain.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yes it's agreeable Dl I like that you included everything stated in the passage. I've had a little confusion though in regard to people being sent into the LoF ( for destruction ) because of what they had done when everyone has sinned and fallen short. ie. A Christian has sinned and only avoids the LoF because faith in Yahweh and Jesus' atonement. This makes me wonder if the punishment for the wicked is according to their works ( to appease justice ) but the final destination in the LoF is solely because of being in enmity with Yahweh ( unfaithful ).

Oh sorry mate this isn't really important in the context of your thread.

It's fine brother, I agree this should probably have it's own thread.

 

[JLB]

I think a believer goes to be with Christ after the body dies.

To die is gain.

:amen

Please explain what is meant by the term Conditional Immortality.

Thanks JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

:amen

This is not a universal position among Conditionalists, but it is one that I personally hold to.

Please explain what is meant by the term Conditional Immortality.

I provided a brief definition earlier in the thread, but perhaps I can here elaborate a bit more on it's definition.

Conditional Immortality is a doctrine that is built on the belief on the nature of man and the nature of God. Namely that God alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16) and that mankind only obtains this through being united with Christ. Adam himself was not innately immortal but was sustained by the tree of life (Genesis 2:9) and that tree of life will also be present in the New Creation (Revelation 22:2,14). This of course also is a rejection of the idea that man has an innately immortal soul, as this immortality belongs solely to God. We in Christ alone are the ones who share in the benefit of immortality as we receive this gift through faith in Christ. Those who do not have faith and are still in their sins will live this one life and be resurrected at the final judgment only to be sentenced to destruction, in which there will be a brief (depends on the severity of their sins) period of existence remaining. Body and Soul are utterly destroyed by the fire that consumes.

 

[Chopper]

The word death is a major part of what I'm looking for. As a Baptist, one of my sources of study was from "Vine's" This is what he says about death. Gk. thanatos. "Death" is the opposite of life; it never denotes nonexistence. As spiritual life is conscious existence in communion with God, so spiritual death is conscious existence in separation from God."

I am with you DI on the point when a sinner (one who has not believed on the Christ) dies (thanatos) that there is a point in time when he/she is not conscious any more. I am thinking that the sinner dies three times. His first death is when he ceases consciousness from this life. His second death occurs in being separated from God eternally. His third death is when he has suffered in the lake of fire (I think) for a period of time which suits his sins. After that, he does not exist anymore.

It's the third death that I'm interested in because I know I'm going to explain my doctrine that has changed. I need somewhat, a simple way, if that's possible, to do that. In order for me to do that I need to understand more about that word death. The wages of sin is death. At what time does the sinner cease conscious life in the lake of fire, if that's where he is?

 

[chessman]

Monism, ... this view there is no consciousness after death for the believers or unbelievers until the resurrection. I am of the opinion that believers have consciousness after the fact so I would say there is some way in which there is what we call a soul, but I try not to focus so much on that as I don't think the Bible does.

Just so that everyone knows what I believe about the intermediate state (not so much to post the evidence for it here); in-between the 1st and the 2nd death, I believe that there is consciousness for both believers and the non-believers throughout this period between death and their resurrection. For the believer (us sons of God) it’s going to be a pleasant experience, in-between death and resurrection. Somehow we feel the Lord but have not received our new bodies. For the sons of Satan, not so pleasant, IMO.
However, I do believe that the wicked’s 2nd death is final and everlasting and does in fact destroy both their soul and their resurrected bodies (Matt 10:28 and Rev 20:14-15 being consistent with this view among dozens of other verses).

So you can see that there are variations between beliefs about the intermediate state. But CI is about n the end their destruction is just what it sounds like it is, IMO.

I did not always believe this to be what the Bible taught, however. To be honest, I’d never really looked into it until 2 years ago.
So, I suppose theoretically somebody might one day show me the Scriptures that teach otherwise. But this seems to be the best Biblically supportable view that I am aware of.
I am unaware of any Scripture that would teach that our souls are destroyed (either believers or non-believers) then resurrected (or for that matter “sleep”, whatever that means) during the intermediate state. But, I’m not looking for any either since I know that believers have eternal life already. I’ve never heard any good argument/Scripture for anything other than God destroying the wicked’s body and soul in Hell. But I have heard of the body’s destruction at death (per Golgotha) and Jesus was conscious during His three days. And all the other saints mentioned.
I suppose, theoretically I’ve overlooked some Scriptures that would teach “soul sleep”, but frankly, I doubt it. I’ve studied this topic via the Bible and various theologians now for a couple of years and I’ve not run across any evidence for soul sleep for the believer or un-believer. Though I know some people believe it.
One thing that I know the Bible teaches is that no man can destroy our souls. I think only God (i.e. Jesus) can destroy our souls and that He will do just that upon the wicked, eventually.

By the way, just so everyone knows my history with this topic (not that, that matters); I’ve been a member of the Southern Baptist denomination my whole life. Until around the beginning of 2012, I’d never even heard of Conditional Immortality much less studied it. I didn’t even have a clue that some Christians believed in or taught CI. I thought all ‘Christians’ believed in ECT as I did from my Christian birth (~1980) until about the 2011/2012 timeframe when I began studying this subject.
CI was a topic that was never/ever presented to me in a Biblical manner until a couple of years ago. But then again no ECT Biblically based argument was ever really presented to me either. No offense, but including here on CFNet.

All the so called ‘ECT proof texts’ were preached and taught in Sunday School, of course, but the exegesis and hermeneutics was, let’s just say, lacking any real depth, in my opinion.

ECT of the wicked was just assumed to be true by me (and frankly I think my pastors assume it as well).
None of my seven or so pastors over those years would agree with CI. My current pastor/leader sure doesn’t believe in CI, I’m quite sure. I don’t talk to him about it because he’s part-time interim.
I’ve only had one pastor that I suspect ‘rather secretly’ held the CI view via some of the things he said (looking back on it now). But I never talked to him about it because I never even thought about it until a couple of years ago.
He, by the way, was kicked out by that Baptist church for teaching reformed doctrines within an Armenian congregation associated with an ‘almost’ Calvinist denomination (Southern Baptist). Ironic, for sure and potentially even related to his tenure there. He is a good theologian, though.

My other pastors were and are all good shepherds of the flock and I love them. And they all certainly love the Lord. But frankly, they spend most of their time (post seminary) visiting with the sick and running a church family versus actual in depth theological study or teaching.

I’ve read what I hope are all the relevant sections of the Bible on this issue and from both sides of the various Theologians on this issue fairly completely (though not comprehensively).

I’ve also enjoyed studying the Early Church Fathers on this topic recently. Many most certainly taught Conditional Immortality.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The word death is a major part of what I'm looking for. As a Baptist, one of my sources of study was from "Vine's" This is what he says about death. Gk. thanatos. "Death" is the opposite of life; it never denotes nonexistence. As spiritual life is conscious existence in communion with God, so spiritual death is conscious existence in separation from God."

Hi Chopper,

This is a really good time to review the meaning of the word as well. The source you used "Vine's" is an expository dictionary, this is not a strong source for determining the meaning of words. W. E. Vine starts with his doctrine, which presupposes the immortality of all humanity (the wicked and righteous alike) and then defines the word from that presupposition. This is expressly how one does not define words.

The Greek word derived from the root which means "to die," simply means the end of life, the state of being dead. This word can be used metaphorically/figuratively sometimes, such as in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, where the Father speaks of his son once being dead. His son wasn't actually dead of course, but he used this to express a metaphor of their relationship being broken and separated.

To suppose it means conscious existence in separation from God is just crazy to me. No where in the definition of death does it denote the aspects of life. This is one of the primary and fundamental issues with the traditional view. It supposes that the wicked also have immortality, when Scripture is clear that only believers have such. That the wicked be totally conscious and living despite being dead/destroyed (both body and soul).

This I believe is because of the influence of Platonism on Christianity, the emphasis in this line of thinking is on the continuation of existence of an innately immortal. This is not the focus of the Bible, where Jesus doesn't just simply die and be a spirit, but he ROSE from the dead (not some kind of spiritual death but physical death). That same physical resurrection is now the hope we now have as believers, not that we will go to heaven when we die, but rather we will rise and reign with Christ over the New Heavens and New Earth!

God is not looking to throw creation in the trash bin, he is rather making all things new!

I think in my next post I will talk about the emphasis on God saving us from physical death, as it is a message that has gotten lost to the modern church who over-emphasizes salvation as being spiritual.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I am with you DI on the point when a sinner (one who has not believed on the Christ) dies (thanatos) that there is a point in time when he/she is not conscious any more. I am thinking that the sinner dies three times. His first death is when he ceases consciousness from this life. His second death occurs in being separated from God eternally. His third death is when he has suffered in the lake of fire (I think) for a period of time which suits his sins. After that, he does not exist anymore.

I personally always prefer to side with the language Scripture gives, and focus on the two deaths. The second death does accomplishes the idea of being eternally separated from God, just as if someone in my family dies that constitutes their being separated, yet they only died one death.

It's the third death that I'm interested in because I know I'm going to explain my doctrine that has changed. I need somewhat, a simple way, if that's possible, to do that. In order for me to do that I need to understand more about that word death. The wages of sin is death. At what time does the sinner cease conscious life in the lake of fire, if that's where he is?

I think you've defined it yourself, when their conscious life comes to a permanent cessation. When this happens I think is not very clear and I believe it is different for every person. The ultimate point though is that we believe that this person's suffering will come to in an end when their destruction is fully realized.

 

[Northman]

Not really getting involved because i know nothing of this subject, but do find it a bit fascinating. Could someone please tell me of which denominations' building i could walk in to and learn more?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Just so that everyone knows what I believe about the intermediate state (not so much to post the evidence for it here); in-between the 1st and the 2nd death, I believe that there is consciousness for both believers and the non-believers throughout this period between death and their resurrection. For the believer (us sons of God) it’s going to be a pleasant experience, in-between death and resurrection. Somehow we feel the Lord but have not received our new bodies. For the sons of Satan, not so pleasant, IMO.
However, I do believe that the wicked’s 2nd death is final and everlasting and does in fact destroy both their soul and their resurrected bodies (Matt 10:28 and Rev 20:14-15 being consistent with this view among dozens of other verses).

So you can see that there are variations between beliefs about the intermediate state. But CI is about n the end their destruction is just what it sounds like it is, IMO.

I did not always believe this to be what the Bible taught, however. To be honest, I’d never really looked into it until 2 years ago.
So, I suppose theoretically somebody might one day show me the Scriptures that teach otherwise. But this seems to be the best Biblically supportable view that I am aware of.
I am unaware of any Scripture that would teach that our souls are destroyed (either believers or non-believers) then resurrected (or for that matter “sleep”, whatever that means) during the intermediate state. But, I’m not looking for any either since I know that believers have eternal life already. I’ve never heard any good argument/Scripture for anything other than God destroying the wicked’s body and soul in Hell. But I have heard of the body’s destruction at death (per Golgotha) and Jesus was conscious during His three days. And all the other saints mentioned.
I suppose, theoretically I’ve overlooked some Scriptures that would teach “soul sleep”, but frankly, I doubt it. I’ve studied this topic via the Bible and various theologians now for a couple of years and I’ve not run across any evidence for soul sleep for the believer or un-believer. Though I know some people believe it.
One thing that I know the Bible teaches is that no man can destroy our souls. I think only God (i.e. Jesus) can destroy our souls and that He will do just that upon the wicked, eventually.

By the way, just so everyone knows my history with this topic (not that, that matters); I’ve been a member of the Southern Baptist denomination my whole life. Until around the beginning of 2012, I’d never even heard of Conditional Immortality much less studied it. I didn’t even have a clue that some Christians believed in or taught CI. I thought all ‘Christians’ believed in ECT as I did from my Christian birth (~1980) until about the 2011/2012 timeframe when I began studying this subject.
CI was a topic that was never/ever presented to me in a Biblical manner until a couple of years ago. But then again no ECT Biblically based argument was ever really presented to me either. No offense, but including here on CFNet.

All the so called ‘ECT proof texts’ were preached and taught in Sunday School, of course, but the exegesis and hermeneutics was, let’s just say, lacking any real depth, in my opinion.

ECT of the wicked was just assumed to be true by me (and frankly I think my pastors assume it as well).
None of my seven or so pastors over those years would agree with CI. My current pastor/leader sure doesn’t believe in CI, I’m quite sure. I don’t talk to him about it because he’s part-time interim.
I’ve only had one pastor that I suspect ‘rather secretly’ held the CI view via some of the things he said (looking back on it now). But I never talked to him about it because I never even thought about it until a couple of years ago.
He, by the way, was kicked out by that Baptist church for teaching reformed doctrines within an Armenian congregation associated with an ‘almost’ Calvinist denomination (Southern Baptist). Ironic, for sure and potentially even related to his tenure there. He is a good theologian, though.

My other pastors were and are all good shepherds of the flock and I love them. And they all certainly love the Lord. But frankly, they spend most of their time (post seminary) visiting with the sick and running a church family versus actual in depth theological study or teaching.

I’ve read what I hope are all the relevant sections of the Bible on this issue and from both sides of the various Theologians on this issue fairly completely (though not comprehensively).

I’ve also enjoyed studying the Early Church Fathers on this topic recently. Many most certainly taught Conditional Immortality.

Thanks for sharing your story, what inspired you to begin to study and question what you once believed?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Not really getting involved because i know nothing of this subject, but do find it a bit fascinating. Could someone please tell me of which denominations' building i could walk in to and learn more?

To learn more about this subject? Hard to say, there are many people of various denominations who openly hold to this, but I think only Seventh Day Adventists hold to this as an official doctrine.

If you'd like to learn more, a good website is rethinkinghell.com

These guys have podcasts where they address these issues openly and dialogue with others who hold to the traditional understanding of hell. Besides that, I am pretty knowledgeable on the subject to answer any questions you might have. So far we have been speaking pretty in depth on the subject, but I could speak more plainly if you need.

If you're new in the faith then I recommend coming back to this issue a little later and just focus on your walk with Jesus.

Blessings,
DI

 

[agua.]

The word death is a major part of what I'm looking for. As a Baptist, one of my sources of study was from "Vine's" This is what he says about death. Gk. thanatos. "Death" is the opposite of life; it never denotes nonexistence. As spiritual life is conscious existence in communion with God, so spiritual death is conscious existence in separation from God."

I am with you DI on the point when a sinner (one who has not believed on the Christ) dies (thanatos) that there is a point in time when he/she is not conscious any more. I am thinking that the sinner dies three times. His first death is when he ceases consciousness from this life. His second death occurs in being separated from God eternally. His third death is when he has suffered in the lake of fire (I think) for a period of time which suits his sins. After that, he does not exist anymore.

It's the third death that I'm interested in because I know I'm going to explain my doctrine that has changed. I need somewhat, a simple way, if that's possible, to do that. In order for me to do that I need to understand more about that word death. The wages of sin is death. At what time does the sinner cease conscious life in the lake of fire, if that's where he is?

Yeah Chop the definition of death is really a big stumble. When Yahweh told Adam he would die in the day he ate from the forbidden tree the consequence was physical. imo. Adam's body returned to dust and God's spirit returned to Him. When we talk about spiritual death it means we're in a state which will lead to the LoF ie. unbelief. We can be considered dead even while alive as per John5:24, Romans 6:13 etc. Both the state of being alive and dead in these scriptures refers to the present position of a person ( belief or unbelief) which will decide their fate after the resurrection/s ( life or death ). imo

Joh 5:24 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


When the wicked are resurrected they will have a physical body right ? So they died physically once and then are judged and receive punishment for their sins/works and then are killed again. Whether the punishment takes place inside the LoF or before the wicked enter it I'm not convinced but either way I assume the length of the punishment will depend on what it is specifically and how Yahweh's Holy standards balance the scales of justice. So I think you can compress 3 deaths into 2 if you consider that the punishment period is while the wicked are living. ( between the resurrection and the second death). imo