Confusion about what the scriptures say about the condition of the dead?

[rrowell]

This subject was brought to light in the Bible Study forum and in it began a debate as to whether or not there is life after death (whether the soul dies or not)

It began with the question in the title of this thread, the place of the dead was entertained and was side tracked by the doctrine that hold to the belief that the soul dies, not a spiritual death but a physical one of which I deny the bible teaches.

I asked the question "show me one verse that shows the soul dies, not a spiritual death, but a physical death" and someone posted :

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I maintain this scripture in no way shows a physical death but a everlasting torment... to use this scripture to say the soul dies a physical death is to disregard the rest of the Gospel such as:

Mark 9:43-44 (KJV)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

It is my hope that those who helped bring this subject to debate will continue it here...

 

[John 8:32]

This subject was brought to light in the Bible Study forum and in it began a debate as to whether or not there is life after death (whether the soul dies or not)

It began with the question in the title of this thread, the place of the dead was entertained and was side tracked by the doctrine that hold to the belief that the soul dies, not a spiritual death but a physical one of which I deny the bible teaches.

I asked the question "show me one verse that shows the soul dies, not a spiritual death, but a physical death" and someone posted :

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I maintain this scripture in no way shows a physical death but a everlasting torment... to use this scripture to say the soul dies a physical death is to disregard the rest of the Gospel such as:

Mark 9:43-44 (KJV)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

It is my hope that those who helped bring this subject to debate will continue it here...

This subject was brought to light in the Bible Study forum and in it began a debate as to whether or not there is life after death (whether the soul dies or not)

It began with the question in the title of this thread, the place of the dead was entertained and was side tracked by the doctrine that hold to the belief that the soul dies, not a spiritual death but a physical one of which I deny the bible teaches.

I asked the question "show me one verse that shows the soul dies, not a spiritual death, but a physical death" and someone posted :

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I maintain this scripture in no way shows a physical death but a everlasting torment... to use this scripture to say the soul dies a physical death is to disregard the rest of the Gospel such as:

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

So what this word really means is living forever in another place?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Die:

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

Dead:

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

Do you maintain that this really means alive in another place?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

And as used here the word really means to live?

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Destroy:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Notice this is the same word used in John 3:16

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Perish:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Death:

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

So the wages of sin is really life in another place and the gift of God is something we already have?

Mark 9:43-44 (KJV)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

It is my hope that those who helped bring this subject to debate will continue it here...

Can one take this literally? If so will there be those in the Kingdom unable to walk because they do not have legs. They will have no arms? No hands? Blind?

Again, what is a fire that cannot be quenched? It is a fire that cannot be put out, but it can burn out on its own…

Jer 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Jer 7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Jer 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Are those fires still burning in Judah and Jerusalem?

Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Are the palaces of Jerusalem still burning?

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?

Who said that the soul dies? God did. What is the first recorded lie in history?

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

God says that the reward of the wicked is to become ashes under the souls of the righteous feet…

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

And the Devil said…

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 

[rrowell]

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

So what this word really means is living forever in another place?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Die:

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

Dead:

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

Do you maintain that this really means alive in another place?

No, your confusion lay in what is dead, the body will surely die, but the Spirit will not die a physical death as does the body:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

And as used here the word really means to live?

Again, failure to see the context and realization of what has died, here it is not the "body" or the "soul" that has physically died, but the soul having a spiritual death, the connection between the soul and God is what dies when one sins.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Destroy:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Notice this is the same word used in John 3:16

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Perish:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Note the part of speech, it is a verb, an action word meaning continual state as in "eternal punishment"

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Death:

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

So the wages of sin is really life in another place and the gift of God is something we already have?

Here you have it wrong on both accounts, you can't possibly think you have "eternal life" now, and the "death" spoken of here is not the death of the soul but the death of the connection with God also known as "spiritual death"

Again, what is a fire that cannot be quenched? It is a fire that cannot be put out, but it can burn out on its own…

Wrong, since it is fire he uses as an example then we know there are requirements to support combustion, the only way to quench a fire is to remove one of the components, one way is remove the fuel "it will burn out"... since it cannot be quenched it will not run out of fuel or "burn out" as you say...

Jer 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Jer 7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Jer 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Are those fires still burning in Judah and Jerusalem?
Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Are the palaces of Jerusalem still burning?

Those are examples of quenchable fire and I am surprised you even used it!

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?

The cities were destroyed, but the souls that were in it are indeed now in the hadean world suffering along with the rich man.

Who said that the soul dies? God did. What is the first recorded lie in history?

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

God says that the reward of the wicked is to become ashes under the souls of the righteous feet…

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

And the Devil said…

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

What he said was their body will die, but their souls will burn forever, that is unless you call this same God (my God) a liar:

Mark 9:44 (KJV)
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[John 8:32]

No, your confusion lay in what is dead, the body will surely die, but the Spirit will not die a physical death as does the body:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Again, failure to see the context and realization of what has died, here it is not the "body" or the "soul" that has physically died, but the soul having a spiritual death, the connection between the soul and God is what dies when one sins.

Note the part of speech, it is a verb, an action word meaning continual state as in "eternal punishment"

Here you have it wrong on both accounts, you can't possibly think you have "eternal life" now, and the "death" spoken of here is not the death of the soul but the death of the connection with God also known as "spiritual death"


Wrong, since it is fire he uses as an example then we know there are requirements to support combustion, the only way to quench a fire is to remove one of the components, one way is remove the fuel "it will burn out"... since it cannot be quenched it will not run out of fuel or "burn out" as you say...

Those are examples of quenchable fire and I am surprised you even used it!

The cities were destroyed, but the souls that were in it are indeed now in the hadean world suffering along with the rich man.

What he said was their body will die, but their souls will burn forever, that is unless you call this same God (my God) a liar:

Mark 9:44 (KJV)
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Thank you for that meaningful exegesis of the scriptures, oh wait, you only gave opinions. My bad.

 

[whitestone]

.

It is important to understand that one can be dead while walking under the sun...spiritually dead. We are either spiritually living or spiritually dead beings.

When we die physically....

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


​

Our flesh bodies return to dust...forever. Our spirt/soul returns to God. We are then celestial beings.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.



.
​

 

[rrowell]

Thank you for that meaningful exegesis of the scriptures, oh wait, you only gave opinions. My bad.

You said :
Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Says the soul will die, I said the Bible say's it does not (not an opinion, but scriptural proof):

Mark 9:44 (KJV)
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

You cannot adhere to your interpretation of Mat. 10:28 without disregard for the rest of the Gospel such as Mark 9:44

 

[SonByAdoption]

This subject was brought to light in the Bible Study forum and in it began a debate as to whether or not there is life after death (whether the soul dies or not)

It began with the question in the title of this thread, the place of the dead was entertained and was side tracked by the doctrine that hold to the belief that the soul dies, not a spiritual death but a physical one of which I deny the bible teaches.

I asked the question "show me one verse that shows the soul dies, not a spiritual death, but a physical death" and someone posted :

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I maintain this scripture in no way shows a physical death but a everlasting torment... to use this scripture to say the soul dies a physical death is to disregard the rest of the Gospel such as:

Mark 9:43-44 (KJV)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

It is my hope that those who helped bring this subject to debate will continue it here...

we dont have any bible verses that say humans have immortal souls. satan started the lie that you believe that we go to heaven and hell at death.

Jesus said the complete oppisite.

1“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;a believe also in me. 2In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?b 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4And you know the way to where I am going.â€John 14:1-4 ESV.



we dont go to heaven at death. we go to heaven at 2nd coming.

You are so confused about the verse you kedp quoting in ecclesiaties. it is not the human spirit that goes back to God who gave it. It is God's spirit that goes back to God. His spirit keeps us alive.

of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.genesis 7:22 N.A.S.B.

as long as my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils,Job 27:3.

when the human dies God spirit goes back to God but the human spirit sleeps unconsiously with the body like it does every night when you sleep. when you die the very next thing you know you will hear jesus voice waking you up.

If a man dies, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change comes. job 14:14.

25For I know that my redeemer lives, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26And though after my skin is thus destroyed, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

27Whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another; though my heart be consumed within me. job 19:25-27.

solomon who wrote ecclesiasties believed in jobs writings that when a man dies he sleeps body and soul in the grave patiently awaiting our resurrection just like jesus didnt go to heaven until the father resurrected him.

 

[Butch5]

This subject was brought to light in the Bible Study forum and in it began a debate as to whether or not there is life after death (whether the soul dies or not)

It began with the question in the title of this thread, the place of the dead was entertained and was side tracked by the doctrine that hold to the belief that the soul dies, not a spiritual death but a physical one of which I deny the bible teaches.

I asked the question "show me one verse that shows the soul dies, not a spiritual death, but a physical death" and someone posted :

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I maintain this scripture in no way shows a physical death but a everlasting torment... to use this scripture to say the soul dies a physical death is to disregard the rest of the Gospel such as:

Mark 9:43-44 (KJV)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

It is my hope that those who helped bring this subject to debate will continue it here...

Can you define what you mean by "soul"?


Additionally, I would suggest that even though the fire is eternal that doesn't necessitate that one will burn in it eternally.

 

[rrowell]

we dont have any bible verses that say humans have immortal souls. satan started the lie that you believe that we go to heaven and hell at death.

when the human dies God spirit goes back to God but the human spirit sleeps unconsiously with the body like it does every night when you sleep. when you die the very next thing you know you will hear jesus voice waking you up.

I suppose the rich man and Abraham were talking in their sleep:

Luke 16:19-26 (KJV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

 

[rrowell]

Can you define what you mean by "soul"?


Additionally, I would suggest that even though the fire is eternal that doesn't necessitate that one will burn in it eternally.

Soul = Life...
the Soul will not burn eternally, it is the Spirit that will succumb to either eternal fire or eternal bliss, it will not die...

For if you believe a spirit die, you believe God and his Angles will die.

 

[Butch5]

Soul = Life...
the Soul will not burn eternally, it is the Spirit that will succumb to either eternal fire or eternal bliss, it will not die...

You say life, does that mean body and spirit?

For if you believe a spirit die, you believe God and his Angles will die.

Not necessarily. There is the possiblity of destruction.

 

[BornAgain]

Dear O,

I just wanted to respond to one scripture where you twisted Jesus' own words and replaced them with some Greek scholar. You contradict yourself when you quote and quote and quote and when something doesn't agree with you, you refer to a "scholar" to fit what you want it to say. BTW, didn't you have a post deleted yesterday on the thred Is Hell Real for promoting a false doctrine?

In the scripture:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:43 (KJV)

43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee,—The answer that Jesus gave to this penitent malefactor has received many different interpretations. Jesus used his familiar form of speech to preface his answer. Jesus said to him: "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." Jesus had observed the most profound silence amidst the jeers of the rulers and multitude, but now he is ready to make reply to this penitent, dying man. The statement that Jesus gave him can be understood when we know the general teachings of the Christ. "Today," not at some time in the distant future, but this very day, you are to be associated with me in the pains and death of the cross and are to be associated with me in "Paradise." "Paradise" originally meant "an enclosed park or pleasure-ground." In the Septuagint Version (Gen. 2:8) it means the Garden of Eden. We are told that in Jewish theology the department of Hades where the blessed souls await the resurrection is called "Paradise"; it is equivalent to "Abraham's bosom." (Luke 16:22, 23.) It occurs three times in the New Testament—in this passage, 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7. It always seems to mean the abode of the blessed. Some doubt that the evidence in the scripture is strong enough to warrant a belief in the intermediate state of the dead. Whatever may have been the conception of the early Hebrews with regard to the separation between the righteous and the wicked in Sheol, those of a later period did conceive a separation; hence to them Hades and Sheol designated the place of the righteous and the wicked dead; Hades was the place for the blessed and called Paradise, while the wicked dwelt in the abyss called Tartarus. Evidently Jesus did not mean that this robber would go with him to heaven that day, as it seems clear from other statements that Jesus did not go to heaven that day. His day of ascension came about forty days after that time. After Jesus was raised from the dead and appeared to Mary, when she recognized him he said to her: "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father." (John 20:17.)

 

[John 8:32]

Dear O,

I just wanted to respond to one scripture where you twisted Jesus' own words and replaced them with some Greek scholar. You contradict yourself when you quote and quote and quote and when something doesn't agree with you, you refer to a "scholar" to fit what you want it to say. BTW, didn't you have a post deleted yesterday on the thred Is Hell Real for promoting a false doctrine?

In the scripture:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:43 (KJV)

One slight problem with that is that Christ did not go until three days and three nights later...

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This is more than 72 hours, very close 3-1/2 days later. Remember that punctuation was not in the original manuscripts. It was added much later and not part of the original. A more correct way to read that is...

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Christ was telling the malefactor that he would be with Him and He was telling him that today.

I am telling you today that in the future you will be with Me in paradise.

If we read it as it is punctuated, the malefactor beat Christ there by 3-1/2 days and that contradicts this...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

or else the scripture can be broken...

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee,—The answer that Jesus gave to this penitent malefactor has received many different interpretations. Jesus used his familiar form of speech to preface his answer. Jesus said to him: "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." Jesus had observed the most profound silence amidst the jeers of the rulers and multitude, but now he is ready to make reply to this penitent, dying man. The statement that Jesus gave him can be understood when we know the general teachings of the Christ. "Today," not at some time in the distant future, but this very day, you are to be associated with me in the pains and death of the cross and are to be associated with me in "Paradise." "Paradise" originally meant "an enclosed park or pleasure-ground." In the Septuagint Version (Gen. 2:8) it means the Garden of Eden. We are told that in Jewish theology the department of Hades where the blessed souls await the resurrection is called "Paradise"; it is equivalent to "Abraham's bosom." (Luke 16:22, 23.) It occurs three times in the New Testament—in this passage, 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7. It always seems to mean the abode of the blessed. Some doubt that the evidence in the scripture is strong enough to warrant a belief in the intermediate state of the dead. Whatever may have been the conception of the early Hebrews with regard to the separation between the righteous and the wicked in Sheol, those of a later period did conceive a separation; hence to them Hades and Sheol designated the place of the righteous and the wicked dead; Hades was the place for the blessed and called Paradise, while the wicked dwelt in the abyss called Tartarus. Evidently Jesus did not mean that this robber would go with him to heaven that day, as it seems clear from other statements that Jesus did not go to heaven that day. His day of ascension came about forty days after that time. After Jesus was raised from the dead and appeared to Mary, when she recognized him he said to her: "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father." (John 20:17.)

It is a matter of incorrect punctuation...

 

[BornAgain]

Jesus did not say he would go to "heaven" that day but to paradise.

Evidently Jesus did not mean that this robber would go with him to heaven that day, as it seems clear from other statements that Jesus did not go to heaven that day. His day of ascension came about forty days after that time. After Jesus was raised from the dead and appeared to Mary, when she recognized him he said to her: "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father." (John 20:17.)

 

[Webb]

Right on rrowell!

 

[John 8:32]

Jesus did not say he would go to "heaven" that day but to paradise.

Evidently Jesus did not mean that this robber would go with him to heaven that day, as it seems clear from other statements that Jesus did not go to heaven that day. His day of ascension came about forty days after that time. After Jesus was raised from the dead and appeared to Mary, when she recognized him he said to her: "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father." (John 20:17.)

Wonder where He went?

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Timeline is this...

3 days and 3 nights, Christ is dead and in the tomb. Resurrected Saturday afternoon about sunset. Greets Mary at the tomb. Goes to heaven that very day as show by the shadow of the Wavesheaf Offering.

Where was/is the malefactor? Why he is dead and in the ground awaiting a resurrection...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[rrowell]

Back to the OP -

As far as the state of the dead (OP); the Bible leaves no wiggle room whatsoever. When our spirit returns to God, there is NO CONSCIOUSNESS Genesis 2:7 explains the process:

"God formed the human out of soil from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and the human BECAME a living soul."

Soul from the Hebrew nephesh occurs for the first time at Genesis 1:20
Genesis 1:20 (KJV)
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life(nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Genesis 1:30 (KJV)
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life (nephesh), I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Nephesh Strong’s 05315 properly a breathing creature.

Every living creature that “breaths†has a soul “including Manâ€

In Gen. 2:7 the Hebrew word meaning “breath of lifeâ€

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It is used in three other instances, Gen. 6:17, Gen. 7:15, and Gen. 7:22

Genesis 6:17 (KJV)
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Genesis 7:15 (KJV)
And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Genesis 7:22 (KJV)
All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

The Soul and Spirit are two distinct things and cannot be interchanged…

The Greek equivalent of the Hebrew “nephesh†is “psuchee†and of its 103 occurrences in the New Testament, it is translated “life†41 times, “soul†57 times, “mind†3 times, “heart†1 time, and “heartily†once… it has NEVER been rendered “spiritâ€

The Greek word “pneuma†occurs about 385 times in the Greek Testament and all occurrences but one, is translated “spirit†(This one variation is in Rev. 13:15, Death, Mortality, Corruptibility, Decay or Destruction are never affirmed of the “spiritâ€.

It is in the nature of the case, impossible for a spirit to die. The Bible affirms deathlessness of the angels, angels are spirits, they do not die…
In every instance where the living are described as “spirit†or “ghost†is yielded up, it is ALWAYS “pneuma†(Spirit) and NEVER “psuchee†(Soul)…

This puts a hole in the Materialists (such as JW)

Like I said in an earlier post, Soul means LIFE.

 

[rrowell]

This is more than 72 hours, very close 3-1/2 days later. Remember that punctuation was not in the original manuscripts. It was added much later and not part of the original. A more correct way to read that is...

Why is it you have to re-write the bible to make your doctrine work?

Only time anyone says the bible is written wrong, interpreted wrong it is because they cannot make it fit THEIR doctrine.

 

[BornAgain]

Wonder where He went?

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Timeline is this...

3 days and 3 nights, Christ is dead and in the tomb. Resurrected Saturday afternoon about sunset. Greets Mary at the tomb. Goes to heaven that very day as show by the shadow of the Wavesheaf Offering.

Where was/is the malefactor? Why he is dead and in the ground awaiting a resurrection...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mark 16:19 (KJV)

Where does it say anything about 3 days and 3 nights in this scripture?

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God
Acts 1:3 (KJV)

After his resurrection Jesus remained on earth "by the space of forty days" before he ascended. He made many appearances to his apostles during this time; we have a record of some of these appearances in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Jesus presented himself to them under different circumstances in such a way that they could not doubt that he had been raised from the dead. "By many proofs," he established the fact of his resurrection. During the forty days there are more than ten definite appearances mentioned; Jesus was not with them continually as he was before his death.

 

[rrowell]

Jesus did not say he would go to "heaven" that day but to paradise.

Evidently Jesus did not mean that this robber would go with him to heaven that day, as it seems clear from other statements that Jesus did not go to heaven that day. His day of ascension came about forty days after that time. After Jesus was raised from the dead and appeared to Mary, when she recognized him he said to her: "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father." (John 20:17.)

That's exactly right!

Jesus went to paradise, the place of the departed spirits where all await (bad and good) for the final judgment...

The Thief is in the bosom of Abraham, where Jesus went and told him He would see him there...

Came back 3 days later, abode on earth 40 days, then went to heaven awaiting the command of God to take the blessed to glory!