CONVICTION...

[Eventide]

No, I'm saying everyone He has chosen will believe in the Truth. They will be sanctified. One caveat. I believe this should not be taken for granted or as Jesus said thou shalt not test God.

This is where we come back to the S P E C I A L ones... because let's face it.. if God is unconditionally choosing some to salvation and allowing them to believe, while not allowing this for all men.. then that my friend is a special case..

 

[childeye]

This is where we come back to the S P E C I A L ones... because let's face it.. if God is unconditionally choosing some to salvation and allowing them to believe, while not allowing this for all men.. then that my friend is a special case..

Your use of the word special is a word fraught with semantics. Notice that I believe one must have the word of God in their hearts to even believe in the Word come in the flesh. God can allow for all men to see strictly in the sense that God raised up a saviour and sent forth the Gospel. Yet not all have received our report. Not all can see or will not see what God has provided. If this is meant to be done this way so that the proud resist the Gospel, then all is happening according to God's perfect plan and nobody is special. Also it can be said that the proud, may one day become humbled by circumstances brought about by not believing and then they may believe.

 

[Eventide]

Your use of the word special is a word fraught with semantics. Notice that I believe one must have the word of God in their hearts to even believe in the Word come in the flesh. God can allow for all men to see strictly in the sense that God raised up a saviour and sent forth the Gospel. Yet not all have received our report. Not all can see or will not see what God has provided. If this is meant to be done this way so that the proud resist the Gospel, then all is happening according to God's perfect plan and nobody is special. Also it can be said that the proud, may one day become humbled by circumstances brought about by not believing and then they may believe.

I wouldn't expect those who believe that God chose them unconditionally would see what a special case this is..

God chooses Joe for salvation unconditionally and affords Joe to believe the gospel..

God doesn't choose Jim for salvation and does not afford Jim to believe the gospel..

We know that God will take vengenance on those who obey not the gospel..

Jim had no choice and suffers the consequences of God not choosing Him and affording Him to believe.. Joe had no choice and yet he's going to have eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Certainly Joe got the special deal there.. there's no way around it.

IMO, I can't believe that some people think that this is how it's all summed up so to speak..

 

[childeye]

I wouldn't expect those who believe that God chose them unconditionally would see what a special case this is..

God chooses Joe for salvation unconditionally and affords Joe to believe the gospel..

God doesn't choose Jim for salvation and does not afford Jim to believe the gospel..

We know that God will take vengenance on those who obey not the gospel..

Jim had no choice and suffers the consequences of God not choosing Him and affording Him to believe.. Joe had no choice and yet he's going to have eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Certainly Joe got the special deal there.. there's no way around it.

IMO, I can't believe that some people think that this is how it's all summed up so to speak..

I see your point. Have you ever considered the case for intercession?

I once had a dream where I was standing on judgment day and there was the lake of fire. And God said to me, you can go into heaven, but these must go into the lake of fire. And I looked and standing there were many people I knew. A brother, some friends, a sister in law. And they were terrified.

As I stood there, I felt really bad and yet I did not want to question God's judgment. Finally I could not stand it any longer and I said; "Lord, I don't feel like I deserve to go to heaven any more than these deserve to go into the fire". God then grabbed me, threw me on the floor and whipped me. As I was on my knees I covered my head with my hands and just took it. After that, He threw the whip on the floor and said "they are now in your hands". And I said, "Lord why did you whip me?" And He said, "I did not whip you for you, I whipped you for them".

He then walked away and I could only see His back, but I got the distinct impression He was pleased and smiling. Then I looked at those who were standing there, and some were weeping, aghast at what they had witnessed, and I liked those. But others were cheering, "way to go". And those I did not like so much.

 

[Eventide]

I see your point. Have you ever considered the case for intercession?

I once had a dream where I was standing on judgment day and there was the lake of fire. And God said to me, you can go into heaven, but these must go into the lake of fire. And I looked and standing there were many people I knew. A brother, some friends, a sister in law. And they were terrified.

As I stood there, I felt really bad and yet I did not want to question God's judgment. Finally I could not stand it any longer and I said; "Lord, I don't feel like I deserve to go to heaven any more than these deserve to go into the fire". God then grabbed me, threw me on the floor and whipped me. As I was on my knees I covered my head with my hands and just took it. After that, He threw the whip on the floor and said "they are now in your hands". And I said, "Lord why did you whip me?" And He said, "I did not whip you for you, I whipped you for them".

He then walked away and I could only see His back, but I got the distinct impression He was pleased and smiling. Then I looked at those who were standing there, and some were weeping, aghast at what they had witnessed, and I liked those. But others were cheering, "way to go". And those I did not like so much.

And what do you think all that means.. if I may ask..

 

[childeye]

And what do you think all that means.. if I may ask..

Is it against the rules to interpret a dream?

 

[Eventide]

Is it against the rules to interpret a dream?

Not that I know of lol.. go for it..

 

[childeye]

Not that I know of lol.. go for it..

Well obviously, to me it means I should pray for others. And I am reminded of Moses interceding for the Israelites and Jesus who also suffered for us. I know I'm not going to be saying "way to go" to Jesus.

 

[Eventide]

Well obviously, to me it means I should pray for others. And I am reminded of Moses interceding for the Israelites and Jesus who also suffered for us. I know I'm not going to be saying "way to go" to Jesus.

Yes, perhaps your prayers will persuade God to unconditionally choose them for salvation..

 

[childeye]

Yes, perhaps your prayers will persuade God to unconditionally choose them for salvation..

Perhaps the workings of God's plan are unfolding as He always intended for He declares the end from the beginning. My prayers for others are out of Love and therefore if they are of Godly impetus, they are not in vain. How do we know that we have not believed because somebody prayed for us?
1 Timothy 2:4-6
King James Version (KJV)



4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[Eventide]

Perhaps the workings of God's plan are unfolding as He always intended for He declares the end from the beginning. My prayers for others are out of Love and therefore if they are of Godly impetus, they are not in vain. How do we know that we have not believed because somebody prayed for us?
1 Timothy 2:4-6
King James Version (KJV)



4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

There's no doubt we should pray without ceasing.. although my point was that maybe God will just chose some more for salvation without any conditions.. no conviction, no repentance, no faith, etc etc.. after all, He chose you unconditionally, right ?

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;594258]There's no doubt we should pray without ceasing.. although my point was that maybe God will just chose some more for salvation without any conditions.. no conviction, no repentance, no faith, etc etc.. after all, He chose you unconditionally, right ?

Eventide, I am so glad you made this statement describing the conditions you are refering to. It eliminates the many ways I could interpret what you are saying when you use the term unconditional and therefore the semantics...

My answer would be yes, I am hoping and praying that God would move people I love to be convicted, to repent, to have pity upon their carnal blindness just like He did with me. And moreover, perhaps someone prayed the same for me. I truly love the humility that comes from such thoughts. I also see the haughtiness that comes if I scorn such thoughts. It is clear which glorifies flesh and which glorifies God. Don't you agree?

 

[Eventide]

My answer would be yes, I am hoping and praying that God would move people I love to be convicted, to repent, to have pity upon their carnal blindness just like He did with me. And moreover, perhaps someone prayed the same for me. I truly love the humility that comes from such thoughts. I also see the haughtiness that comes if I scorn such thoughts. It is clear which glorifies flesh and which glorifies God. Don't you agree?

IMO childeye.. people who think that God chose them for absolutely no reason (ie unconditionally) embrace what I think is a very subtle haughtiness.. to borrow your word here.

I mean how special is that.. God chooses you for no reason, doesn't do this for all men.. and while you gain eternal life and an inheritance in Christ which is beyond measure.. they get eternal separation from God and His wrath..

That's about as special as it gets imo..

Then with respect to your dream.. I think it shows itself there as well.. God whips you and then those who were going into the lake of fire are in your hands..? ? Sounds like you're their saviour..

This may be a little blunt.. although I'm not sure how else to say it.

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;594499]IMO childeye.. people who think that God chose them for absolutely no reason (ie unconditionally) embrace what I think is a very subtle haughtiness.. to borrow your word here.

I mean how special is that.. God chooses you for no reason, doesn't do this for all men.. and while you gain eternal life and an inheritance in Christ which is beyond measure.. they get eternal separation from God and His wrath..

That's about as special as it gets imo..

Then with respect to your dream.. I think it shows itself there as well.. God whips you and then those who were going into the lake of fire are in your hands..? ? Sounds like you're their saviour..

This may be a little blunt.. although I'm not sure how else to say it.

I like you being frank and forthright, I also appreciate your concern so that I don't take it to be offensive... The dream is what it is. I don't take it to mean I am their saviour, I take it to mean I am responsible for them and they are under my authority. As Christ has made us all kings and priests I feel it fits in well with both.

So let's address this issue in my dream. Would you say it would have been better for me to say nothing and this would have pleased God?

 

[Eventide]

The dream is what it is. I don't take it to mean I am their saviour, I take it to mean I am responsible for them and they are under my authority. As Christ has made us all kings and priests I feel it fits in well with both.

So again.. they were going to the lake of fire.. God whipped YOU.. and now they're not going to the lake of fire.. what prevented them from going to the lake of fire..? God whipping YOU..

That's how I see it.. you took their punishment.. and then they were free to enter into heaven..

The reality of the gospel if the that the LORD JESUS CHRIST bore our sins by Himself in his own body..

So let's address this issue in my dream. Would you say it would have been better for me to say nothing and this would have pleased God?

We could speculate til the cows come home.. what's the point.. it was your dream.

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;594518]So again.. they were going to the lake of fire.. God whipped YOU.. and now they're not going to the lake of fire.. what prevented them from going to the lake of fire..? God whipping YOU..

That's how I see it.. you took their punishment.. and then they were free to enter into heaven..

No, I had no intention of wanting to be whipped in my dream. I just felt I'd be a coward if I said nothing. I believe God whipped me so they who I interceded for would feel obligated to obey me afte witnessing my suffering because I spoke up. I admit this is Christlike.

The reality of the gospel if the that the LORD JESUS CHRIST bore our sins by Himself in his own body..

Agreed.

We could speculate til the cows come home.. what's the point.. it was your dream.

If I may be forthright with you, you have no problem speculating on one hand but when I ask for you to view the other, you decline. Why? Are you moooooo...ved to avoid the implications?

 

[Eventide]

No, I had no intention of wanting to be whipped in my dream. I just felt I'd be a coward if I said nothing. I believe God whipped me so they who I interceded for would feel obligated to obey me afte witnessing my suffering because I spoke up. I admit this is Christlike.

Perhaps you're missing the grand point here.. They're going to the lake of fire and then after you are whipped by God they're not going to the lake of fire.. imo that makes YOU their saviour.

If I may be forthright with you, you have no problem speculating on one hand but when I ask for you to view the other, you decline. Why? Are you moooooo...ved to avoid the implications?

Your Forthrightness.. I didn't specualte on anything.. you told me the facts and I told you what I saw in them.. and as mentioned, what would be the point of going outside of what you did say.. ? It was your dream.. it's not like we're discussing scriptural truths here.

 

[childeye]

Perhaps you're missing the grand point here.. They're going to the lake of fire and then after you are whipped by God they're not going to the lake of fire.. imo that makes YOU their saviour.



Your Forthrightness.. I didn't specualte on anything.. you told me the facts and I told you what I saw in them.. and as mentioned, what would be the point of going outside of what you did say.. ? It was your dream.. it's not like we're discussing scriptural truths here.

Yes, but Your Forthrightness would desire you to contemplate with all sincerity whether he did the right thing in speaking up, and if not, why?

 

[Eventide]

Yes, but Your Forthrightness would desire you to contemplate with all sincerity whether he did the right thing in speaking up, and if not, why?

I'm sure you did the right thing and you ended up saving them from the lake of fire.

Good job !

 

[glorydaz]

I'm sure you did the right thing and you ended up saving them from the lake of fire.

Good job !