CONVICTION...

[childeye]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

Yes, absolutely.. that's what the Holy Spirit convicts (convinces) us of.. our SIN, RIGHTEOUSNESS (the righteousness of Christ of course), and judgment.

Well I'll have to pinch myself to make sure that we actually agree on something. So now will you agree that although men have the ability to reason, that reasoning is subject to an ignorance of righteousness without the Christ? Hence Jesus is a Light that allows us to see our sinfulness?

 

[Eventide]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

Well I'll have to pinch myself to make sure that we actually agree on something. So now will you agree that although men have the ability to reason, that reasoning is subject to an ignorance of righteousness without the Christ? Hence Jesus is a Light that allows us to see our sinfulness?

I'm sure that we agree on many things.. although it's typically the disagreements which form the basis of many discussions here.

To your other point, if it were not for the true light of the Spirit of God shining in our hearts, then no person could believe or be convicted.. that's what the Holy Spirit was sent to DO.. and I firmly believe that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. and that the Holy Spirit convicts all men.. not just some who might think of themselves as the elect of God, and that He chose them unconditionally etc.

 

[childeye]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

I'm sure that we agree on many things.. although it's typically the disagreements which form the basis of many discussions here.

To your other point, if it were not for the true light of the Spirit of God shining in our hearts, then no person could believe or be convicted.. that's what the Holy Spirit was sent to DO.. and I firmly believe that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. and that the Holy Spirit convicts all men.. not just some who might think of themselves as the elect of God, and that He chose them unconditionally etc.

Does it remain in your reasoning the possibility that God has made it so that the Gospel resists the proud?

 

[Eventide]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

Does it remain in your reasoning the possibility that God has made it so that the Gospel resists the proud?

Perhaps the other way around... the proud resist the gospel.. and even that can change..

Look at King Nebuchadnezzar.. at one point he is taking the things of God and bringing them into his own house and in time he's proclaiming that Israel's God is the one true God.

Go figure.. a wonderous trophy of God's amazing grace..

 

[childeye]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

Perhaps the other way around... the proud resist the gospel.. and even that can change..

Look at King Nebuchadnezzar.. at one point he is taking the things of God and bringing them into his own house and in time he's proclaiming that Israel's God is the one true God.

Go figure.. a wonderous trophy of God's amazing grace..

Do you think God knew the proud would resist the Gospel and even that He designed it to be so? For the Gospel make mountains into valleys and low things into high things.

 

[Eventide]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

Do you think God knew the proud would resist the Gospel and even that He designed it to be so? For the Gospel make mountains into valleys and low things into high things.

Yes, I think that God knows all things..

What I don't buy into is the belief that God chooses people to salvation unconditionally, as so many are being taught today. Or that God regenerated me so that I would believe the gospel.

 

[childeye]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

Yes, I think that God knows all things..

What I don't buy into is the belief that God chooses people to salvation unconditionally, as so many are being taught today. Or that God regenerated me so that I would believe the gospel.

Do you believe in unconditional Love?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

Yes, I think that God knows all things..

What I don't buy into is the belief that God chooses people to salvation unconditionally, as so many are being taught today. Or that God regenerated me so that I would believe the gospel.

I don't know Ya, but you and I are "totally" aligned with the same truth...Amen...

 

[Eventide]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

Do you believe in unconditional Love?

I do believe that God has loved unconditionally, although He certainly doesn't choose us unconditionally.. once again, the scriptures teach us that He chose us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Do you believe that God saved you unconditionally.. or did you need to believe like everyone else..?

 

[glorydaz]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

Yes, and that is not taught anywhere in the scriptures.



That is certainly what I see the holy scriptures teaching.



It can and does no doubt, although I'm talking about before one is saved.. in that sense I would say that faith comes with conviction.. we need to be convinced of sin first, convinced of His righteousness, etc..



I suppose that it could, although again I think that a person needs to be convinced of something before they trust it to be true.

You are exactly correct.

 

[childeye]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

I do believe that God has loved unconditionally, although He certainly doesn't choose us unconditionally.. once again, the scriptures teach us that He chose us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Do you believe that God saved you unconditionally.. or did you need to believe like everyone else..?

I cannot answer the way you framed the question as either or. If I may, please accept my answer in two parts.

1. I must believe God saved me with an unconditional Love, as we were all dead in sin and worthy of nothing but death.

2. The word "believe" here, I must apply in the sense of the integrity and trustworthiness of God as in the character or person of God, and not as in the more elementary existence of God. I must know who He is as a Person, so that I can honestly say I am convinced, and therefore say I believe.

Having said that, I see sanctification as the process of removing those things that in the darkness of not knowing, would allow doubt, and question the integrity of God's trustworthiness through ignorance of the Truth of His Character.

Subsequently, sanctification of the spirit and belief of the Truth are the consequences of belief in the Christ, not the conditions for belief. I do however believe a man must perservere in this world against those forces that first called God a liar and still remain doing so.

The belief in God that saves must be the opposite of the unbelief that brought death. We unwittingly distrusted God in the garden when we trusted the devil. Now we must unwittingly distrust the devil and trust in the Christ. For if it is by men's wit, then God is trustworthy only because I decided to be for Him, rather than the Truth convinced me and I was sanctified by it.

 

[Eventide]

Time to simplify again perhaps..

What MUST I DO to be saved ?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ

b) Nothing

 

[Eventide]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

Subsequently, sanctification of the spirit and belief of the Truth are the consequences of belief in the Christ, not the conditions for belief.

I didn't say that they were the conditions for BELIEF.. I said that sanctification of the Spirit and believing the truth are conditions by which God chooses a person to salvation.

Your misrepresentation is either intentional or you're not able to follow the simple commentary.

 

[childeye]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

I didn't say that they were the conditions for BELIEF.. I said that sanctification of the Spirit and believing the truth are conditions by which God chooses a person to salvation.

Your misrepresentation is either intentional or you're not able to follow the simple commentary.

Eventide I believe I am saved by unconditional Love. I don't see how I misrepresented what you say.

 

[Eventide]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

Eventide I believe I am saved by unconditional Love. I don't see how I misrepresented what you say.

Me too, and I also believe that I MUST BELIEVE in order to be saved.. how about you ?

Your comment was this;

Subsequently, sanctification of the spirit and belief of the Truth are the consequences of belief in the Christ, not the conditions for belief

Once again, I didn't say that they were the conditions for BELIEF.. you did.

 

[childeye]

Re: CONVICTION... then FAITH

=Eventide;593927]Me too, and I also believe that I MUST BELIEVE in order to be saved.. how about you ?

I believed when I saw. Some don't see, even as at one time I did not see.

Your comment was this;

Originally Posted by childeye
Subsequently, sanctification of the spirit and belief of the Truth are the consequences of belief in the Christ, not the conditions for belief

Once again, I didn't say that they were the conditions for BELIEF.. you did.

Actually I said not the conditions for belief. I think you are taking what I said to mean I was under the impression that you had said they were the conditions. This is true, I did think you were saying this since you speak of unconditional election as against it. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Do you believe in unconditional election or conditional election? Or perhaps you are refering to salvation and not election?

 

[Eventide]

childeye,

My commentary on unconditional election being wrong originated in the thread titled "Some Things Hard To Be Understood".. there I commented on a scripture from 2 Thess 2 which I'll post here.

Tell me what you think and believe that Paul is saying here..

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth..

THEN... would you say that God choosing a person to salvation is

a) conditional upon sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

b) unconditional

 

[childeye]

childeye,

My commentary on unconditional election being wrong originated in the thread titled "Some Things Hard To Be Understood".. there I commented on a scripture from 2 Thess 2 which I'll post here.

Tell me what you think and believe that Paul is saying here..

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth..

THEN... would you say that God choosing a person to salvation is

a) conditional upon sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

b) unconditional

From the scripture, it sounds like it is entirely by grace and unconditional. Why? Because it begins with being bound to thank God. All that follows is therefore attributable to Him.

I said before sanctification and belief of the Truth are not conditions for God choosing. They may be considered conditions for salvation or better, the process of salvation.

 

[Eventide]

From the scripture, it sounds like it is entirely by grace and unconditional. Why? Because it begins with being bound to thank God. All that follows is therefore attributable to Him.

I said before sanctification and belief of the Truth are not conditions for God choosing. They may be considered conditions for salvation or better, the process of salvation.

So are you saying that God COULD choose a person to salvation if they did NOT believe the truth.. or if they were not sanctified by the Spirit ?

 

[childeye]

So are you saying that God COULD choose a person to salvation if they did NOT believe the truth.. or if they were not sanctified by the Spirit ?

No, I'm saying everyone He has chosen will believe in the Truth. They will be sanctified. One caveat. I believe this should not be taken for granted or as Jesus said thou shalt not test God.