CONVICTION...

[childeye]

OK, so you believe that the OT is truth, but not the NT..? Is that what you're getting at ?

No that's what you take from it. I'm not getting at anything. I didn't even want to get into it. Please note from a prior post which perhaps you failed to read:

I told you I didn't want to get into this. Why? because it's futile. But so not to let you go off and think I am saying the scriptures are falsehood, I'll give you an example. There are two differing accounts of Judas' death, two different accounts of what the thieves on the two sides of the cross said. Please let it go at that. Those little irregularities are really insignifigant. The point is Jesus, who is the Christ come in the flesh, died on the cross for the sins of man.

 

[Eventide]

No that's what you take from it. I'm not getting at anything. I didn't even want to get into it. Please note from a prior post which perhaps you failed to read:

I told you I didn't want to get into this. Why? because it's futile. But so not to let you go off and think I am saying the scriptures are falsehood, I'll give you an example. There are two differing accounts of Judas' death, two different accounts of what the thieves on the two sides of the cross said. Please let it go at that. Those little irregularities are really insignifigant. The point is Jesus, who is the Christ come in the flesh, died on the cross for the sins of man.

That's fine if you don't want to talk about it. I would say in closing that imo it's a very serious matter to not believe that the scriptures are truth..

 

[childeye]

That's fine if you don't want to talk about it. I would say in closing that imo it's a very serious matter to not believe that the scriptures are truth..

I understand what you mean. But just because there are descrepencies that does not mean the scriptures are falsehood. You must remember this. There are semantics. Truth is Spirit, I'm sure you will agree. By the way I've thought a lot about honesty. I do believe it was from the beginning and did not come from anywhere but always was. Dishonesty entered in along with pride in the fall.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I will say this. I don't even understand all of scripture so I am in no position to honestly say they are without error or not in any way. Mind you the quote saying all scripture is inspired by the holy Spirit was said before the New Testament was written. Therefore that statement is refering to what we regard as the Old Testament, the laws and the prophets. I take that in faith that those scriptures are without error.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The Scripture you referenced was not written before the New Testament but, is part of the New Testament...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

No that's what you take from it. I'm not getting at anything. I didn't even want to get into it. Please note from a prior post which perhaps you failed to read:

I told you I didn't want to get into this. Why? because it's futile. But so not to let you go off and think I am saying the scriptures are falsehood, I'll give you an example. There are two differing accounts of Judas' death, two different accounts of what the thieves on the two sides of the cross said. Please let it go at that. Those little irregularities are really insignifigant. The point is Jesus, who is the Christ come in the flesh, died on the cross for the sins of man.

There are different accounts, of what occurred to Judas, from different writers, but there are no "contradictions" in Scripture. All Scripture is "inspired" therefore there can be, no contradiction. The Bible is God's Word, and if any scripture verse is a lie, then we can "disregard" the whole Bible. (Old and New Testament.)

 

[Grubal Muruch]

That's fine if you don't want to talk about it. I would say in closing that imo it's a very serious matter to not believe that the scriptures are truth..

AMEN!!!

 

[Gazelle]

And again, you also said that they're not truth.. so perhaps you can explain how they're not truth.

It grieves the Spirit within me to read such discourse.
While I tread softly and do not wish to cause any more turmoil, maybe I can interject how some things can be understood?

As for differing accounts, ah some of us just covered this in another thread, how you and 3 friends could view an accident at the same time, yet you will relate the account slightly differently, based upon your perspective in life (such as Luke was a physician and wrote from that viewpoint..). Plus, you would then discuss the account, so you might all find a few statements that you quote exactly the same way, because you so identify with how it relates what you saw... No one lies, the story is the same, just told in different detail as personality was allowed to blend into the Scripture. (If God didn't want personal accounting and flavor, he could have "poofed" the texts into being Himself. ;) )

As for Scripture being truth... ah... try this?
That everything IN our Old Testament and New Testaments IS the Word Of God and it is through His Holy Spirit that the words came to be written... that is (the) Truth. God decreed and nothing is there that God doesn't want us to have.

But, to say everything that is written is truth, no... take one simple example of how this can be... in Ecclesiastes, in a state of despair he writes, "Vanity Vanity, all is vanity." Well, we know all is not vanity. The statement is not true. That it is Scripture for us to read and not something man inserted on his own, that is Truth.

Does this help at all? :

 

[Eventide]

But, to say everything that is written is truth, no... take one simple example of how this can be... in Ecclesiastes, in a state of despair he writes, "Vanity Vanity, all is vanity." Well, we know all is not vanity. The statement is not true. That it is Scripture for us to read and not something man inserted on his own, that is Truth.

Does this help at all? :

Gazelle,

Thanks for sharing.. although I'd say that within the context of what the author is writing.. all is vanity.. I liken it to the LORD's words where He says.. What shall it profit a man who gains the whole world and forfeits his soul..

I think that this is along the lines of what Ecclesiastes is saying.. and imo it's truth, as is all scripture which is inspired by God.

 

[childeye]

There are different accounts, of what occurred to Judas, from different writers, but there are no "contradictions" in Scripture. All Scripture is "inspired" therefore there can be, no contradiction. The Bible is God's Word, and if any scripture verse is a lie, then we can "disregard" the whole Bible. (Old and New Testament.)

You missed the point Grubal, the statement is refering to Old Testament scripture, the laws and the prophets and the experiences of the descendants of Abraham known as the nation of Israel. I never said there is no truth in scripture as eventide thinks I said.

 

[Eventide]

I think that many people tend to confuse regeneration with conviction...

God doesn't regenerate men so that they can believe.. the Spirit of God convicts men so that they can believe..

Regeneration takes place after a person trusts in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, after they hear the gospel, and after they believe.. it is then that God seals a person with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance in Him, unto the praise of His glory !

 

[childeye]

I think that many people tend to confuse regeneration with conviction...

God doesn't regenerate men so that they can believe.. the Spirit of God convicts men so that they can believe..

Regeneration takes place after a person trusts in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, after they hear the gospel, and after they believe.. it is then that God seals a person with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance in Him, unto the praise of His glory !

I totally agree, BUT, here you have used the word conviction which can mean two different things, convinced and guilty. Moreover, when you say convicts of sin, what sin are you referring to? Are you refering to works of the law or the great Sin that begat all sin? The slandering of God.

 

[glorydaz]

I think that many people tend to confuse regeneration with conviction...

God doesn't regenerate men so that they can believe.. the Spirit of God convicts men so that they can believe..

Regeneration takes place after a person trusts in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, after they hear the gospel, and after they believe.. it is then that God seals a person with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance in Him, unto the praise of His glory !

AMEN.

 

[Eventide]

CONVICTION and CONSCIENCE

Conviction is sometimes difficult for me to wrap my mind around.. as to how it relates to conscience etc...

Is conviction something which happens within the conscious mind etc..

Consider this very well known verse from John's gospel...

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

 

[childeye]

Re: CONVICTION and CONSCIENCE

Conviction is sometimes difficult for me to wrap my mind around.. as to how it relates to conscience etc...

Is conviction something which happens within the conscious mind etc..

Consider this very well known verse from John's gospel...

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

There was a rock that recorded all transgressions of the law. That rock was the same Word that is Christ. One cannot honestly deny the Word of God in ones own heart lest they deny himself. This is how the Holy Spirit convinces and convicts.

We all know what wrong we've done only because our sins are made known by the Word of God that is our conscience, and also where a sincere sorrow comes from, the kind of sorrow that responds righteously. By caring how we affect others comes righteous behavior, and therefore, not by thinking we have a free choice to obey or not.

If it is fear of punishment that is the cause of sorrow over sin, it is not as sincere a sorrow and does not affect a man's repentance the same way. For that would be works according to the context in which Paul used the term. Love does everything that is necessary to establish righteousness.

So that thinking that what we are being judged upon how we value Love or in that Spirit as God, is a pure thought. And this is different than thinking we are being judged because we are in control of our actions. In fact they are perhaps opposites.

And so it should be noted that the conscience that recognizes the value of Love as both God and sentience, also prefers the Truth that convinces for the sake of Love as preferred over the fear of punishment. For it recognizes this is the source of righteousness and this is all by grace and not works.

We need to see how to value this Love only knowing we can lose it because we don't own it. Only after that comes any freedom of action if I even dare say the word freedom. For to serve God is the only eternal calling and there is no other choice, nor do we seek a choice. For one must worship Him in Truth to walk with Him. This means we must know Him so that we hope He ever lives in us. So to bring about the proper worship that produces righteousness, that means it is by revelation of Him that righteousness comes. So if I count it freedom, I count that a freedom from sin made possible by God's revelation of Himself and not a freedom to act unrighteously. This is where semantics cause a disconnect on what is and where is freewill.

 

[Eventide]

Not sure what you're talking about childeye.. so it's probably just some more semantics..

 

[childeye]

Not sure what you're talking about childeye.. so it's probably just some more semantics..

I'm saying being convinced is seeing the Truth. The Truth is Spirit as in the person of God, Love is the word we recognize God as. I think that's pretty simple.

To add to that, I am saying men do not conjure Love through volition. This is at the heart of my angst against the term freewill. To me freewill is not agreeing with grace. I would define freewill here as the ability to be good or evil by ones own discretion. I would define grace as the Love that makes someone righteous on the inside. We would however have to believe that God is that Love and He resides in us through the Faith that He is.

 

[Eventide]

To add to that, I am saying men do not conjure Love through volition. This is at the heart of my angst against the term freewill.

Who has said that men conjure love through volition..? We love God because He first loved us.. not because we conjured it up on our own..

IMO I think that you're fanatical when it comes to freewill.. to me it's simple.. God displays His love toward humanity through His beloved Son and the message of the gospel.. and all men come to that same crossroad.. seek to save your life and you'll lose it or lose it for Him and save it.. and that's what the Holy Spirit was sent into the world to do.. convince it of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: CONVICTION and CONSCIENCE

Conviction is sometimes difficult for me to wrap my mind around.. as to how it relates to conscience etc...

Is conviction something which happens within the conscious mind etc..

Consider this very well known verse from John's gospel...

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

This is the way I see it. The work of our conscience is to feel guilt when we've disobeyed what God has written therein. That certainly leads to our being convinced or convicted of sin. Man feels guilty even before he's heard the gospel message of Christ, because that which may be known of God has been instilled in man since His creation.
Here's another famous verse...well, two.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Look how many times you find the word ashamed in the OT. That guilty conscience, the shame we feel when we do wrong is what God uses to lead us to repent when we hear the gospel being preached. Lest any say only the regenerated feels shame, note what Jeremiah says here, "As the thief is ashamed when he is found,..."

Withhold thy foot from being unshod, and thy throat from thirst: but thou saidst, There is no hope: no; for I have loved strangers, and after them will I go. As the thief is ashamed when he is found, so is the house of Israel ashamed; they, their kings, their princes, and their priests, and their prophets. Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us.

Guilt and shame lead to repentance for the believer has no call to be ashamed.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

[glorydaz]

Who has said that men conjure love through volition..? We love God because He first loved us.. not because we conjured it up on our own..

IMO I think that you're fanatical when it comes to freewill.. to me it's simple.. God displays His love toward humanity through His beloved Son and the message of the gospel.. and all men come to that same crossroad.. seek to save your life and you'll lose it or lose it for Him and save it.. and that's what the Holy Spirit was sent into the world to do.. convince it of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

I'd go so far as to say that until we've been given a new heart, we don't even know what love is.

Love suffers long, is kind, envys not, vaunts not itself, is not puffed up,
Does not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil,
Rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth.
Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
And never fails.

We can't come to God with love, but we certainly have access to love when we come to Christ.

 

[Eventide]

I'd go so far as to say that until we've been given a new heart, we don't even know what love is.

Love suffers long, is kind, envys not, vaunts not itself, is not puffed up,
Does not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil,
Rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth.
Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
And never fails.

We can't come to God with love, but we certainly have access to love when we come to Christ.

I agree.. we have access to this amazing grace through faith.. and we love God BECAUSE He first loved us.. the ultimate demonstration of love.