CONVICTION...

[childeye]

=Eventide;583676]Who has said that men conjure love through volition..?

Indirectly, everyone who says we have a freewill according to any use that makes us responsible to do good apart from any divine will within us. It is like expecting a carpenter to be able to build a computer. We cannot choose to Love for then God is an illusion and a false religion.
[/QUOTE]

We love God because He first loved us.. not because we conjured it up on our own..

This has nothing to do with it because one first must see the Christ in Jesus to be able to ascertain that God has loved us.

IMO I think that you're fanatical when it comes to freewill..

I wholeheartedly agree. I therefore would only correct you by saying that it is not opinion that I am obssessed, it is a fact. I only wish I could find others who share my concerns in acknowledging how greatly mankind has been deceived. For those who claim to be believers and think men have freewills remain oblivious and deceived. For this cause I wonder what people, who regard themselves as Christian yet do not believe we have been manipulated by lies, think Jesus meant when he said the Truth will set you free?

to me it's simple.. God displays His love toward humanity through His beloved Son and the message of the gospel.. and all men come to that same crossroad..

It's not that simple. Why? Because while I agree with you about God's Love, not everyone sees that. So why do we see that and someone else doesn't? If I believe it was by my freewill, then I take merit and hand demerit to those who do not see the same love as me. But if I believed because God revealed it to me but not to them, then this forms a basis for a whole different way of reckoning God's intentions. Hence the Gospel makes the blind seeing but also the seeing blind.

Consequently there are two different lines of reasoning that come depending which way you believe and I am obssessed with being in the right one so that I am not deceived. How about you?

 

[childeye]

I'd go so far as to say that until we've been given a new heart, we don't even know what love is.

Love suffers long, is kind, envys not, vaunts not itself, is not puffed up,
Does not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil,
Rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth.
Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
And never fails.

We can't come to God with love, but we certainly have access to love when we come to Christ.

All very valid points except for the "we can't come to God with love". This is true in degrees for I believe there remains some residue of love although adulterated in mankind, and it is this that is quickened through the revelation of God. But you are correct that we would not have imagined this depth of Love was possible that we see in the Christ. For this reason I have great joy and yet at the same time a great sorrow. For it is sad that Jesus would need suffer so much so that we might believe. Blessed is his faith and may we all have courage to walk in the same.

 

[glorydaz]

I wholeheartedly agree. I therefore would only correct you by saying that it is not opinion that I am obssessed, it is a fact. I only wish I could find others who share my concerns in acknowledging how greatly mankind has been deceived. For those who claim to be believers and think men have freewills remain oblivious and deceived. For this cause I wonder what people, who regard themselves as Christian yet do not believe we have been manipulated by lies, think Jesus meant when he said the Truth will set you free?

Have you ever considered the fact that you're the one who is being deceived?

The truth will make you free...from the power of sin, not from the deceit of the devil.

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

We sin when we follow after our lusts and pride. We don't need satan to deceive us in those for the flesh is weak.

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Have you ever considered the fact that you're the one who is being deceived?

The truth will make you free...from the power of sin, not from the deceit of the devil.


We sin when we follow after our lusts and pride. We don't need satan to deceive us in those for the flesh is weak.

Right on!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

We fight against, the world, the flesh, and the devil...All three of these influence mankind... Without the Spirit's presence within, we "lose" the game of life...

 

[glorydaz]

All very valid points except for the "we can't come to God with love". This is true in degrees for I believe there remains some residue of love although adulterated in mankind, and it is this that is quickened through the revelation of God. But you are correct that we would not have imagined this depth of Love was possible that we see in the Christ. For this reason I have great joy and yet at the same time a great sorrow. For it is sad that Jesus would need suffer so much so that we might believe. Blessed is his faith and may we all have courage to walk in the same.

It is sad that Jesus had to suffer, and we are the "joy that was set before Him". May we give Him reason to say, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Eventide]

Re: CONVICTION and CONSCIENCE

This is the way I see it. The work of our conscience is to feel guilt when we've disobeyed what God has written therein. That certainly leads to our being convinced or convicted of sin. Man feels guilty even before he's heard the gospel message of Christ, because that which may be known of God has been instilled in man since His creation.
Here's another famous verse...well, two.



Look how many times you find the word ashamed in the OT. That guilty conscience, the shame we feel when we do wrong is what God uses to lead us to repent when we hear the gospel being preached. Lest any say only the regenerated feels shame, note what Jeremiah says here, "As the thief is ashamed when he is found,..."



Guilt and shame lead to repentance for the believer has no call to be ashamed.

glorydaz,

I missed this post of yours... excellent commentary imo concerning guilt and shame and how that relates to coviction..

A hearty AMEN !

 

[Eventide]

Indirectly, everyone who says we have a freewill according to any use that makes us responsible to do good apart from any divine will within us.

If this is your definition of freewill then I would certainly agree with it.. because the scriptures tell us plainly that there are none good but one, and that is God..

It is like expecting a carpenter to be able to build a computer. We cannot choose to Love for then God is an illusion and a false religion.

Again I would agree.. because I don't see the scriptures teaching me that anyone chooses God, but rather that they trust in Christ, after hearing the gospel... ie..

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

This has nothing to do with it because one first must see the Christ in Jesus to be able to ascertain that God has loved us.

Nothing to do with it..? God displaying His love through His beloved Son has nothing to do with our loving Him.. ? IMO it has EVERYTHING to do with it.

I wholeheartedly agree. I therefore would only correct you by saying that it is not opinion that I am obssessed, it is a fact.

I think this is what fanaticism eventually leads to.. thinking that what we believe is beyond opinion and that it is factual.. as if it can't be wrong.

I only wish I could find others who share my concerns in acknowledging how greatly mankind has been deceived.

I'll acknowledge that... I do think that man has been greatly deceived.. although I also believe that man has been shown the truth in Christ Jesus..

For those who claim to be believers and think men have freewills remain oblivious and deceived.

Again, if we use your definition above, then I'd agree.

For this cause I wonder what people, who regard themselves as Christian yet do not believe we have been manipulated by lies, think Jesus meant when he said the Truth will set you free?

Who are you talking about specifically..? What Christians do not believe that they have been deceived, or manipulated by lies, as you mention ?

It's not that simple. Why? Because while I agree with you about God's Love, not everyone sees that.

IMO it's because not all people want to see the truth.. it's not that they can't but rather because they won't.. We know that the Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world, and that some love darkness and will not come to the light lest their deeds be exposed for what they truly are..

So why do we see that and someone else doesn't? If I believe it was by my freewill, then I take merit and hand demerit to those who do not see the same love as me.

This I disagree with because people don't take credit for trusting in Christ, they glorify Christ by trusting in Him and in Him alone for their salvation through His precious shed blood... and they don't hand demerit to those who don't see the truth, they speak the truth in love so that others may also have the truth set them free.

But if I believed because God revealed it to me but not to them, then this forms a basis for a whole different way of reckoning God's intentions. Hence the Gospel makes the blind seeing but also the seeing blind.

That's a big if... and we don't need to speculate.. because we know that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world... we also know that God has revealed Himself to men so that they are without excuse..

For some reason, many are led to believe that they received some 'special' inside information so to speak with respect to the gospel of God concerning His Son.. and that I can't agree with for reasons already stated.. I got the same gospel message that everyone else gets... the same conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. there's no reason for me to believe that I got some special call while others do not..

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;584146]If this is your definition of freewill then I would certainly agree with it.. because the scriptures tell us plainly that there are none good but one, and that is God..



Again I would agree.. because I don't see the scriptures teaching me that anyone chooses God, but rather that they trust in Christ, after hearing the gospel... ie..

I want to remember you said this. Because later here you refute it.

Nothing to do with it..? God displaying His love through His beloved Son has nothing to do with our loving Him.. ? IMO it has EVERYTHING to do with it.

You misunderstand. What I said is when a person does not recognize that Jesus is the Christ they cannot grasp from the cross that men are saved through his suffering atonement, therefore they cannot acknowledge that this is God's Love on display.

I think this is what fanaticism eventually leads to.. thinking that what we believe is beyond opinion and that it is factual.. as if it can't be wrong.

Yes I believe Jesus can't be wrong. If I have believed that God's Love can only live in us through the Holy Spirit, then I am correct in my fanaticism.

Who are you talking about specifically..? What Christians do not believe that they have been deceived, or manipulated by lies, as you mention ?

It is against my better judgment to name names. You can read the posts yourself.

IMO it's because not all people want to see the truth.. it's not that they can't but rather because they won't.. We know that the Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world, and that some love darkness and will not come to the light lest their deeds be exposed for what they truly are..

Yes I agree, but still those who would not come into the light misinterpret what the light is. They may see it as condemnation of themselves and so in prdie they loathe correction. Or perhaps they see the loss of freedom to do selfish acts not knowing that it is the oppertunity to grasp the virtue that causes a man to be selfless.

This I disagree with because people don't take credit for trusting in Christ, they glorify Christ by trusting in Him and in Him alone for their salvation through His precious shed blood... and they don't hand demerit to those who don't see the truth, they speak the truth in love so that others may also have the truth set them free.

IMO it's because not all people want to see the truth.. it's not that they can't but rather because they won't..

These two statements are contradictory in my view. And here is where I have a problem, because earlier you said men don't choose God and here you seem to say that all men are able to.

That's a big if... and we don't need to speculate.. because we know that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world... we also know that God has revealed Himself to men so that they are without excuse..

You are using Romans one I assume. Romans one is refering to believing in a Godhead. I used the word "if" as in an alternative form the other line of reasoning. I am not speculating, for we know God chose the lowly things over the high things. We know it comes by revelation according to His having mercy where He will have mercy so that it be unto His glory.

For some reason, many are led to believe that they received some 'special' inside information so to speak with respect to the gospel of God concerning His Son.. and that I can't agree with for reasons already stated.. I got the same gospel message that everyone else gets... the same conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. there's no reason for me to believe that I got some special call while others do not..

There is a difference between being special because God chose you through belief so that it be His glory and your being special because you believed through your own volition while others chose otherwise. Tell me, what do you make of this verse?

1 Corinthians 2:7-8

King James Version (KJV)


7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

And remember this?
which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

 

[Eventide]

Bottom line here childeye is a common theme around here..

You think that you're special and that your own opinion is beyond deception..

Good luck with that..

 

[glorydaz]

Again I would agree.. because I don't see the scriptures teaching me that anyone chooses God, but rather that they trust in Christ, after hearing the gospel... ie..

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

To trust is to believe. Do we trust (believe) because we have no other choice in the matter?
We know many people hear the gospel and turn away from the light, because they love the darkness more than the light. That is the choice man has....to choose life.

I'll acknowledge that... I do think that man has been greatly deceived.. although I also believe that man has been shown the truth in Christ Jesus..

Deceived by who? Satan's objective is to blind the unbeliever using the things of the world.

He sets out temptations in the world....money, power, pornography, etc. and then man chooses to disobey God, by following his own fleshly lusts. Does that mean we're "deceived" or just giving in to our flesh.

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Who are you talking about specifically..? What Christians do not believe that they have been deceived, or manipulated by lies, as you mention ?

Childeye is referring to me, for one. The Word tells us man is without excuse, and I'm pretty sure that Childeye believes man does have an excuse because the devil has deceived him.

Man is defiled by what comes out of the heart of man...his disobedience to God's laws which have been set forth in his conscience.

And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

IMO it's because not all people want to see the truth.. it's not that they can't but rather because they won't.. We know that the Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world, and that some love darkness and will not come to the light lest their deeds be exposed for what they truly are..

Exactly. Satan can't force us to do anything against our will. Man is quite capable of deceiving himself, combined with this flesh of sin which follows after the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life.

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

False teachers lie in wait to deceive.

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Man's conscience becomes seared from too much sin.

This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

 

[childeye]

Bottom line here childeye is a common theme around here..

You think that you're special and that your own opinion is beyond deception..

Good luck with that..

On the contrary, I think God is special. All I've said all along is that if Paul is right and God has mercy where He has mercy and He has chosen the lowly things so as to put to naught the high things, there is nothing special about any of us. Why you seem to think I think I'm special is not understood. My "opinion", is that this is not my opinion, but the teaching of the Holy Spirit and verified in scripture.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;584251]To trust is to believe. Do we trust (believe) because we have no other choice in the matter?
We know many people hear the gospel and turn away from the light, because they love the darkness more than the light. That is the choice man has....to choose life.

Why do people love the darkness more than the light? Because they are following a lie. The fact we must choose to believe something, is by definition "determinism" not "freewill". As these so-called followers of darkness which all of us once were, are unaware they are against themselves I ask the question, why have I seen and trusted the Christ while others have not? This is not a sin to ask this question? It is humility. Nor am I a false teacher because I answer by saying God has revealed it to me and not my flesh and blood.

Deceived by who? Satan's objective is to blind the unbeliever using the things of the world. He sets out temptations in the world....money, power, pornography, etc. and then man chooses to disobey God, by following his own fleshly lusts. Does that mean we're "deceived" or just giving in to our flesh.

A great question. However do not both occur together? Yes they do, for the deceiptfulness of sin is empowered through the lusts of the flesh and no man is immune lest they have the True Image of God.
Does desiring comfort or pleasure in the flesh constitute sin? No, only when such comfort in the flesh unfairly causes others pain and suffering in their flesh. Therefore, only through consideration for others suffering and pleasure is there a power that can overcome sin. That power is Love.

Childeye is referring to me, for one. The Word tells us man is without excuse, and I'm pretty sure that Childeye believes man does have an excuse because the devil has deceived him.

If we get one thing straight. Let's straighten this out. Romans one is refering to having no excuse for suppressing the Truth. To do so is a direct diservice to one's own self and to the Godhead. To say this another way, Love your neighbor as you would love yourself, for this is what God in us does even as God is Love. There is no hypocrisy in such reasoning. Therefore God is the Truth to which all men must submit lest they be lost. Since to deny this is to deny one's self, it is hypocritical as is all reasoning founded upon lies. Andtherefore there is no excuse for denying one's self. This is how the conscience works.

Now all I have said is men are not free in their wills to make up their own truth for this is to deny the existence of a Godhead and count Love as the product of man's will. Therefore such an ideal of "freewill" that discounts God as necessary for a man to be righteous, is to be under a lie and is sin and will lead to death. This lie was believed when we partook of the knowledge of good and evil thinking we could be like God if we could choose to be righteous equipped with such knowledge, when in fact we already were like God in that we had Love.

This was a deception perpetrated by Satan and I do not believe Adam and Eve fully understood the ramifications of their decision nor do I think they were aware of the deception even because they were ignorant of the fact they were already like God in that they had Love. Hence Roman's one says for when they knew God they did not esteem God as God. Being unthankful they became vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened.

All of this came after Adam and Eve, and is indicative of our thinking we choose to be good or evil according to the knowledge first taken by Adam in the garden. For how else would one think they are wise and become fools as Romans one says unless they took merit for their own brightness rather than giving glory to God their maker? Consequently God gave men over to the lusts of their flesh and unto vile affections because we worshipped the creation (ourselves) over the Creator.

Now these vile affections are not our choice as they are the consequence of a false image of god. So as this is the case we do not freely choose to have them and we must not declare we do lest we remain ignorant from whence they came and remain ignorant and this is the darkness that men Love rather than the light of the Truth. And the perpetuating of this lie is the ongoing of wickedness in mankind.

So it is Romans two says, there is no excuse whoever you are who judges another, for wherein you judge another you condemn yourself for you do the same. So it is I do not condemn Adam and Eve for I reckon they are the same as I, and I them in God's eyes.

Man is defiled by what comes out of the heart of man...his disobedience to God's laws which have been set forth in his conscience.

Man is defiled by what comes out of his mouth, For as he condemns others he condemns himself.

Exactly. Satan can't force us to do anything against our will.

As the will is subject to whatever the mind believes to be true, this is not an accurate statement. Scripture has already proven this over and over and over and over and over. Satan from the beginning said God can't force us. What a load of B.S... Now you say Satan can't force us, and I would state this is dependant upon whether we see the Truth so as not to be deceived. This whole talk of "freewill" obscures the reality of Truth and only serves to once again elevate the believer over the Truth. And so I maintain it is only by grace we see and not sin, and I reject any teaching that gives credence to the abilities of men rather than to the Creator that bestows them.

Man is quite capable of deceiving himself,

Yes those who believe they sin because they chose to rather than they were given over to the lusts of the flesh by God, are deceiving themselves.

combined with this flesh of sin which follows after the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life.

Yes these are the consequences of not seeing the Truth of God.

False teachers lie in wait to deceive.

Yes they certainly do, may God allow we not be one of them, Amen?

 

[glorydaz]

Why do people love the darkness more than the light? Because they are following a lie.

No, because we live in the flesh, mind the things of the flesh, and walk after the things of the flesh. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought).

A great question. However do not both occur together? Yes they do, for the deceiptfulness of sin is empowered through the lusts of the flesh and no man is immune lest they have the True Image of God.
Does desiring comfort or pleasure in the flesh constitute sin? No, only when such comfort in the flesh unfairly causes others pain and suffering in their flesh. Therefore, only through consideration for others suffering and pleasure is there a power that can overcome sin. That power is Love.

We have the true image of God written in our conscience.
Yes, desiring comfort or pleasure in the flesh can and does lead to sin, because the flesh is never satisfied.
Look at gluttony as an example. How does that cause others pain?

If we get one thing straight. Let's straighten this out. Romans one is refering to having no excuse for suppressing the Truth. To do so is a direct diservice to one's own self and to the Godhead. To say this another way, Love your neighbor as you would love yourself, for this is what God in us does even as God is Love. There is no hypocrisy in such reasoning. Therefore God is the Truth to which all men must submit lest they be lost. Since to deny this is to deny one's self, it is hypocritical as is all reasoning founded upon lies. Andtherefore there is no excuse for denying one's self. This is how the conscience works.

I'm with you on the love others as yourself, but the conscience was given to man so he would know the difference between right and wrong. There is no excuse for not believing in God...not "there is no excuse for denying one's self."

Now all I have said is men are not free in their wills to make up their own truth for this is to deny the existence of a Godhead and count Love as the product of man's will. Therefore such an ideal of "freewill" that discounts God as necessary for a man to be righteous, is to be under a lie and is sin and will lead to death. This lie was believed when we partook of the knowledge of good and evil thinking we could be like God if we could choose to be righteous equipped with such knowledge, when in fact we already were like God in that we had Love.

This I can agree with.....yay You know, though, don't you, that doesn't mean we don't have the free will to trust and believe in Jesus as our Saviour? We are told to choose life, and that we must do.

I'll have to respond to the rest of your post separately. This is getting way too long.

 

[glorydaz]

This was a deception perpetrated by Satan and I do not believe Adam and Eve fully understood the ramifications of their decision nor do I think they were aware of the deception even because they were ignorant of the fact they were already like God in that they had Love. Hence Roman's one says for when they knew God they did not esteem God as God. Being unthankful they became vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened.

I see it a little different, in a couple of ways. First, they were made in the image of God, so they had free will...They could obey God's very clear command to not eat of one certain tree, or they could disobey. Like most of us, we may not think God really means what He says. I don't think it's the Love of God they didn't see, but His Righteousness and Justice. They didn't esteem God as God that He doesn't make requests, He makes demands.

All of this came after Adam and Eve, and is indicative of our thinking we choose to be good or evil according to the knowledge first taken by Adam in the garden. For how else would one think they are wise and become fools as Romans one says unless they took merit for their own brightness rather than giving glory to God their maker? Consequently God gave men over to the lusts of their flesh and unto vile affections because we worshipped the creation (ourselves) over the Creator.

I agree with most of this, but Adam and Even fell for the same reasons we do....lusts and pride.

Now these vile affections are not our choice as they are the consequence of a false image of god. So as this is the case we do not freely choose to have them and we must not declare we do lest we remain ignorant from whence they came and remain ignorant and this is the darkness that men Love rather than the light of the Truth. And the perpetuating of this lie is the ongoing of wickedness in mankind.

I guess this is where we differ the most. The rest, above, is a matter of perspective. Every single time our conscience tells us something is wrong, we choose to listen or not. We don't listen because we're weak in the flesh, and desire instant gratification to the wants of the flesh.

So it is Romans two says, there is no excuse whoever you are who judges another, for wherein you judge another you condemn yourself for you do the same. So it is I do not condemn Adam and Eve for I reckon they are the same as I, and I them in God's eyes.

You're certainly correct there. I don't condemn Adam and Eve, either. It's wise though to look at why Adam and Eve disobeyed God in order to understand how we're made. God knew they would disobey for the simple reason that He allowed them to choose, and He had a plan for the salvation.

Your last comments deserve a more extensive reply, so I'll get to them next time.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;584508]No, because we live in the flesh, mind the things of the flesh, and walk after the things of the flesh. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought).

Yes, this is a lie that we should believe more highly of ourselves than we ought. For lust is deceiptful since it always promises what it cannot ever fufill. So I don't see how you can say living in the flesh is not a lie for then it would be the Truth by default. Moreover the flesh is therefore a will of it's own and cannot be subject to God who is the Truth.

We have the true image of God written in our conscience.

I agree so long as we have a healthy conscience, that is why I say Adam doubted himself and lacked confidence. That is why I believe he listened to the woman whcih he should not have done.

Yes, desiring comfort or pleasure in the flesh can and does lead to sin, because the flesh is never satisfied.

Lust is an excess of pleasure, not pleasure in itself. Comfort is a good thing not a bad thing. Woe unto me if I judge someones comfort as sin unjustly, for Jesus was called a glutton and a wino yet he was without sin. Such is the wickedness of this generation. As the opposite of pleasure is pain, there is no fault in avoiding pain unless it causes others to have pain in your stead. God did not make us to like pain which is being sadistic, for how would we measure do unto others as we would have done unto us without recognizing pain and pleasure in ourselves? This is getting off track.

Look at gluttony as an example. How does that cause others pain?

It can be disabling for one thing, it is also an excess as I described above. What if there is only so much food? Does not this gluttony take from others? But this is getting off track. If one has the Word of God living in him or her, they will do what is right by following Love, not deliberating what is good or evil.

I'm with you on the love others as yourself, but the conscience was given to man so he would know the difference between right and wrong.

The conscience can be twisted by lies. One can justify wrong things as good things. Were not those who persecuted Christians believe they were acting on God's will? Is not Satan transformed into an angel of light? Read the parable of the eyes are the lamps of the soul.

There is no excuse for not believing in God...not "there is no excuse for denying one's self."

Semantics are always a problem. There is no excuse for not believing in God, I agree. To deny God however is in Truth, to deny one's self since to serve God is to serve yourself. For God has our best interests in mind, and by this I do not mean serving the flesh, but the Spirit, for the Spirit gives life but the flesh profits nothing.

This I can agree with.....yay You know, though, don't you, that doesn't mean we don't have the free will to trust and believe in Jesus as our Saviour? We are told to choose life, and that we must do.

No I don't know we have the "freewill" to believe in Christ. I believe it must be given or else the Holy Spirit is not necessary. For the Holy Spirit testifies to the Father and the Son. One must understand what a Christ is and this must be revealed as Jesus said, Who do you say I am? Flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you, but only my Father in heaven. Moreover Paul wrote, God has chosen the lowly things rich in faith to put to naught the high things so that no man may boast. Therefore He hides from the learned and scholarly, what He reveals to mere children. I therefore believe all of this is meant for us to not think we have come to Christ by our own freewill. For if the pride of man is also the sinfulness of man, this makes perfect sense unto destroying such pride while giving all glory to God with a true thankfulness.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;584519]I see it a little different, in a couple of ways. First, they were made in the image of God, so they had free will...

As "freewill" declares we are free from any divine will governing our choices it cannot be said we have a freewill because we were made in God's image.

They could obey God's very clear command to not eat of one certain tree, or they could disobey.

Yes, and they did obey up until they were vexed by Satan that God was not to be trusted, for Satan proposed the option to disobey, not mankind or God. So how is it being made in God's image gives us the right to distrust the One True God and call it our God given freewill?

Like most of us, we may not think God really means what He says. I don't think it's the Love of God they didn't see, but His Righteousness and Justice. They didn't esteem God as God that He doesn't make requests, He makes demands.

We live in front of a very busy street. My children, when they were little, would love to play in the front yard kicking a ball. I told them not to run out in the street if the ball goes out there but to take care to look both ways. Knowing spiritual wisdom thanks be to God, I also said that the devil would come tell them that I was trying to be their boss and raise rebellion and cause them to ignore my strict warning. I told them that when he comes, to tell him that "my Dad tells me because he loves me and doesn't ever want us to be hurt, not because he desires power over me". They always looked both ways before crossing the street and they never allowed the thought of rebellion to reside in them. Love for us is the reason why God does not make requests, and Love for us is why He is just.

I agree with most of this, but Adam and Even fell for the same reasons we do....lusts and pride.

Eve was beguiled it is true, but not so with Adam. No scriptures verify that either one of them fell for lusts or pride. You are getting into the effects of the knowledge of good and evil when you talk of pride, and you're getting into how God gave men over to the lusts of our flesh because of vanity. I do not think we know innocence as they did and so I don't think we can say with any certainty we were no different than them.

I guess this is where we differ the most. The rest, above, is a matter of perspective. Every single time our conscience tells us something is wrong, we choose to listen or not. We don't listen because we're weak in the flesh, and desire instant gratification to the wants of the flesh.

But this is what scripture tells us, that God gave men over to the lusts of the flesh. To ignore this is to not see a key Truth, for it is some of the most revealing information in scripture. For if we come to ask forgiveness we must know what it is we are sorry for, otherwise it is insincere and God knows this. So imagine what God thinks if He gave us over to our flesh to become abominations because we did not esteem Him correctly and then we come saying we are sorry for being abominations not for esteeming him improperly.

You're certainly correct there. I don't condemn Adam and Eve, either. It's wise though to look at why Adam and Eve disobeyed God in order to understand how we're made. God knew they would disobey for the simple reason that He allowed them to choose, and He had a plan for the salvation.

But how can I be correct here in Romans two about not judging others and not be right about Romans one, God giving men over to vile affections and the lust of the flesh? For the very reason Paul says we are inexcusable whosoever judges another, is because God gave men over to the lusts of the flesh. That is why Romans two begins with "Therefore".

The plan God has for His Christ, would have to include the foreknowledge of Satan, for that is why he is the Father of sin. All that transpires on earth in mankind therefore is to make apparant the faults that began in heaven and turn them unto God's glory. I don't see any other conclusion.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, this is a lie that we should believe more highly of ourselves than we ought. For lust is deceiptful since it always promises what it cannot ever fufill. So I don't see how you can say living in the flesh is not a lie for then it would be the Truth by default. Moreover the flesh is therefore a will of it's own and cannot be subject to God who is the Truth.

Living in the flesh is not a lie, it's a plain fact.

Man is body, soul, and spirit....three in one, just like God.
The soul is who we are, our mind and heart.
By sheer will-power, man can control his body, but when our spirit is not in unison with the Spirit of God, our mind does not seek to please God but the flesh. That's why we're said to live and walk in the flesh before we're saved.

No I don't know we have the "freewill" to believe in Christ. I believe it must be given or else the Holy Spirit is not necessary. For the Holy Spirit testifies to the Father and the Son. One must understand what a Christ is and this must be revealed as Jesus said, Who do you say I am? Flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you, but only my Father in heaven. Moreover Paul wrote, God has chosen the lowly things rich in faith to put to naught the high things so that no man may boast. Therefore He hides from the learned and scholarly, what He reveals to mere children. I therefore believe all of this is meant for us to not think we have come to Christ by our own freewill. For if the pride of man is also the sinfulness of man, this makes perfect sense unto destroying such pride while giving all glory to God with a true thankfulness.

I certainly understand where you're coming from, but we're commanded to repent and believe. We're told to seek and to come. None of this would be necessary if it wasn't something required of us. It's the exact same thing as when He tells us to obey. Surely you don't believe God does the obeying for us? Even believers filled with the Spirit will disobey God sometimes. If not, why does He say He chastens us? There are some things God requires of man. These are things we either choose to do or we can choose to disobey Him.

 

[Eventide]

Why you seem to think I think I'm special is not understood.

You have told us why... because God revealed Himself to YOU but not to them... now that's special.

My "opinion", is that this is not my opinion, but the teaching of the Holy Spirit and verified in scripture.

As long as you understand that you can be wrong about what you believe (like everyone else), then call it whatever you want.

 

[Eventide]

As mentioned, I think that conviction is often misunderstood for regeneration. This thread turning into another 'freewill' topic seems to testify to that end..

What would be the point of the Spirit of God convicting (or convincing) the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment... if He must then regenerate a person in order to believe the truth about sin, righteousness, and judgment ?

The Spirit of God doesn't regenerate a person so that they can believe.. He convicts a person so that they can believe..

Conviction is based upon evidence, and who could possibly estimate the endless ways in which the Spirit of God reveals these things to men..?

If the scriptures tell us plainly that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. and the Spirit of God testifies of Christ, and is sent into the world to testify of these things.. then why do some believe that He has only revealed Himself to them and not all men ?