[__ Science __ ] creation

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

In Genesis 1:11-12 the grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit whose seed was in itself, that "the earth brought forth" full grown? In other words, it is not like today when the blossom appears and then becomes a small fruit and then grows to maturity with it's seed in it.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I don't follow.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I don't follow.

hello Papa Zoom, dirtfarmer here

The first trees, grass, and herbs were full grown when they appeared. There was no germination of seeds and then a growth period to reach full maturity. When the trees appeared they had fruit with the seed in them, so did the herbs and the grass. Just as when God made man, man was not in the infant stage of life, but fully grown with the ability to produce children.

In the world today every thing is brought forth in a infant stage and time is required for maturity and reproduction.

I hope that I have explained what I meant in the 1st post in this post.
dirtfarmer

 

[Papa Zoom]

hello Papa Zoom, dirtfarmer here

The first trees, grass, and herbs were full grown when they appeared. There was no germination of seeds and then a growth period to reach full maturity. When the trees appeared they had fruit with the seed in them, so did the herbs and the grass. Just as when God made man, man was not in the infant stage of life, but fully grown with the ability to produce children.

In the world today every thing is brought forth in a infant stage and time is required for maturity and reproduction.

I hope that I have explained what I meant in the 1st post in this post.
dirtfarmer

Yeah, I'm not sure we can read that much into the Genesis account. It likely could be the case but clearly we also have germination of seeds going on and growth as well. I really think Christians try to make too much of Genesis and instead of adding clarity, they add confusion. Age of the earth is but one example. Order of creation is another. It's enough that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. How He did it and what it looked like is all speculative IMO.

 

[jay55]

Yeah, I'm not sure we can read that much into the Genesis account. It likely could be the case but clearly we also have germination of seeds going on and growth as well. I really think Christians try to make too much of Genesis and instead of adding clarity, they add confusion. Age of the earth is but one example. Order of creation is another. It's enough that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. How He did it and what it looked like is all speculative IMO.

Hello Papa Zoom and Dirtfarmer, Jay55 here (BTW, this doesn't mean I am 55 or born in 55, its just a random number)

What dirfarmer says reminds me of the argument many have had about the age of the earth and our universe. In particular, one of the arguments one often hears to argue against a God created universe (or at least making an argument about the age of it) is that things like stars must have existed for so long given the stage of life they are currently in. But, as dirtfarmer points out, God very well could have created many things if not all things with an apparent age to start. For example, put stars in the sky that are already mature or create Adam from the dust of the earth as a 30 year old man. So, just because something appears to be of a certain age (to our thinking), it doesn't necessarily mean it has been around for that long.

 

[Free]

Hello Papa Zoom and Dirtfarmer, Jay55 here (BTW, this doesn't mean I am 55 or born in 55, its just a random number)

What dirfarmer says reminds me of the argument many have had about the age of the earth and our universe. In particular, one of the arguments one often hears to argue against a God created universe (or at least making an argument about the age of it) is that things like stars must have existed for so long given the stage of life they are currently in. But, as dirtfarmer points out, God very well could have created many things if not all things with an apparent age to start. For example, put stars in the sky that are already mature or create Adam from the dust of the earth as a 30 year old man. So, just because something appears to be of a certain age (to our thinking), it doesn't necessarily mean it has been around for that long.

The question then is why God would create the universe to appear old when it isn’t. Is that not rather quite deceptive?

 

[KevinK]

^^That's my point. Why also would He plant fossils in the ground with more primitive ancestral features of us and other modern species?

 

[jay55]

The question then is why God would create the universe to appear old when it isn’t. Is that not rather quite deceptive?

Do you believe that God created Adam from the dust of the earth and, if so, how old did he make him?

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you believe that God created Adam from the dust of the earth and, if so, how old did he make him?

You didn't answer Free's question.
I'd like to see what you have to say about it.
Please respond.

 

[jay55]

There is no deception in God's word and creation. Any deception that exists comes from elsewhere. With respect to times/ages, God is in no way limited by time as we are - he operates outside of it. His creations are timeless.

 

[dirtfarmer]

The question then is why God would create the universe to appear old when it isn’t. Is that not rather quite deceptive?

hello Free, dirtfarmer here

Why would it be deceptive? Who would have taken care of an infant Adam & Eve.

 

[Free]

There is no deception in God's word and creation. Any deception that exists comes from elsewhere. With respect to times/ages, God is in no way limited by time as we are - he operates outside of it. His creations are timeless.

Of course God is not bound by space and time but that doesn't address the point. Do you agree with the Pslamist that "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork" (Ps. 19:1, ESV)? Do you agree with Paul that:

Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (ESV)

So, Paul agrees with the Pslamist, saying that God has made plain to us and shown us his "eternal power and divine nature...in the things that have been made". This is what the fathers of modern science thought as well and reasoned from this that they should be able to therefore study creation and know something about God and the universe. The universe "declares," it "speaks" to us in some way about the "glory of God". The numerous things that science has discovered about the creation speak to this.

Why then would God create a young universe to appear old? How, exactly, does that "declare the glory of God"?

hello Free, dirtfarmer here

Why would it be deceptive? Who would have taken care of an infant Adam & Eve.

My question was regarding the age of the universe.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Of course God is not bound by space and time but that doesn't address the point. Do you agree with the Pslamist that "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork" (Ps. 19:1, ESV)? Do you agree with Paul that:

Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (ESV)

So, Paul agrees with the Pslamist, saying that God has made plain to us and shown us his "eternal power and divine nature...in the things that have been made". This is what the fathers of modern science thought as well and reasoned from this that they should be able to therefore study creation and know something about God and the universe. The universe "declares," it "speaks" to us in some way about the "glory of God". The numerous things that science has discovered about the creation speak to this.

Why then would God create a young universe to appear old? How, exactly, does that "declare the glory of God"?



My question was regarding the age of the universe.

hello Free, dirtfarmer here

Why would the age of the universe be any different than the age of Adam and Eve. If they were created full grown and the "fruit bearing trees" we created fully mature and bearing fruit, then why would the universe be created with an appearance of age also?

 

[jay55]

Why then would God create a young universe to appear old?

Why not, because it was necessary, because he can, to show his eternal power, but, certainly not, to deceive.

 

[Free]

Why not, because it was necessary, because he can, to show his eternal power, but, certainly not, to deceive.

The act of creating shows his eternal power. That has nothing to do with creating something new to appear old.

Creating something new to appear as though it is old, is rather deceiving, is it not? How does that declare his glory?

 

[Free]

Why would the age of the universe be any different than the age of Adam and Eve.

Why would they be the same? For one thing, mankind was created last. For another, science tells us the universe is significantly older than mankind. And yet another is that the Bible gives us no age for either the universe or man.

It is interesting that you never tried to address my point regarding the early modern scientists and Scripture.

If they were created full grown and the "fruit bearing trees" we created fully mature and bearing fruit, then why would the universe be created with an appearance of age also?

It is unclear what you are asking here.

 

[jay55]

The act of creating shows his eternal power. That has nothing to do with creating something new to appear old.

Creating something new to appear as though it is old, is rather deceiving, is it not? How does that declare his glory?

I am sorry to hear that you feel deceived by this. I don't.

 

[Free]

I am sorry to hear that you feel deceived by this. I don't.

I haven't said I feel deceived nor am I asking if you feel deceived. I'm asking if you think it is an act of deception. The meaning of deception from Merriam-Webster: "the act of causing someone to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deception

 

[jay55]

I haven't said I feel deceived nor am I asking if you feel deceived. I'm asking if you think it is an act of deception. The meaning of deception from Merriam-Webster: "the act of causing someone to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deception

No I do not.

 

[Free]

No I do not.

Interesting. Says a lot.