Bible Study Creator Jesus In The Old Testament.

[Chopper]

The whole idea of the Old Testament was to point to the coming savior. The language or the Old Testament, the feasts, everything pointed to Jesus. I have some great teachings on it. My life is kind of upside down since my husband died. I will have to find them and share them. They are amazing.

O Sandy, I'm so sorry to hear of your Husband's passing. I can't remember from our past fellowship if he was saved. Was he?

 

[Chopper]

Thank you JLB for all those quotes, I especially like this one....Exodus 3:2

So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.

....because there was a debate a while ago that the lake of fire had to consume the people there because of the nature of fire, consumes. Not so!! Here in Exodus 3:2 the bush was on fire, but not consumed!

Here's a question that I've had for a very long time. Is there a way, other than context, to identify just God, El rather than the Son. Or, is every mention of LORD or Lord, Jesus? Is El ever mentioned?

This morning, my study was in Hebrews chapter seven, about Melchizedek. I have come to the conclusion that Jesus was not Melchizedek. Mainly because Melchizedek was from the priestly line of Levi and Jesus was from the line of Judah. Is that correct?

O Great Teacher, you have all the answers. Seriously, I've underestimated your knowledge, and I apologize. You are a good man of God with a lot of study and convictions in your past. I want to thank you for not getting upset when folk like me don't agree.

 

[JLB]

The context would need to be evaluated in each verse you are referring to.

The translators wrote either LORD or Lord based on their interpretation from the context.

I would like to continue with the Hebrews scripture, and elaborate on the authors comparison of Jesus to Angels, since that is the one of the foundational scriptures you chose.

For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

7 And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:5-10


We see that the writer of the book of Hebrews seemed to be "weighing in" on a controversy about Jesus as the Son of God, and angels who are referred to as "sons of God".

• as He says... For to which of the angels did He ever say:...

Let's examine the scriptures in the old testament concerning the Angel of the Lord.

Three different scriptures referring to three different manifestations of the Angel of the Lord being referred to as God.

• Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.” 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

and again

• 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:21-22

and again

• 11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13

Then The Lord Himself, the Spirit of Christ, through Zechariah also refers to the Angel of the Lord as God.

• In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8

JLB

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”

4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

Let's discuss what an angel is.

There are cults who claim Jesus is Michael the arch angel, and deny Him as the Lord God.

• Angel - Strongs 4397 - mal'ak

messenger, representative

1. 
   
   
   • messenger
   • angel
   • the theophanic angel

In the typical sense, an angel is a messenger.

To me, there is a fullness to things, and the number three describes this.

The number 7 denotes completion or perfection, whereas the number 3 represents fullness.

• The three-fold fullness of God is; Father, Word, and the Holy Spirit.
• The three-fold fullness of man is: spirit, soul, and body
• The three-fold fullness of the sun is: light, heat, and energy.
  
• The three-fold fullness of man's expression: thought, word and deed.

So what is the fullness of an angel?

Angels are called:

1. Messengers
2. Spirits
3. sons of God

What would fullness of The Angel of the Lord be?

1. The [Word] Messenger of God
2. The Spirit of the Lord -
3. The Son of God.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17

It's interesting to note that Exodus 3 describes the three-fold progression of understanding as:

• And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
• So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look,
  
• God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

The three-fold fullness of the Angel of the Lord is:

1. the Angel of the Lord
   
2. the Lord
3. God

JLB

 

[JLB]

This morning, my study was in Hebrews chapter seven, about Melchizedek. I have come to the conclusion that Jesus was not Melchizedek. Mainly because Melchizedek was from the priestly line of Levi and Jesus was from the line of Judah. Is that correct?

No.

Melchizedek having no genealogy, is greater than Levi, since Levi "paid tithes" to Melchizedek, being in the loins of Abraham at the time.

The lesser pays tithes to the greater.

 

[JLB]

....because there was a debate a while ago that the lake of fire had to consume the people there because of the nature of fire, consumes. Not so!! Here in Exodus 3:2 the bush was on fire, but not consumed!

Yes sir.

 

[Nathan]

What truly stands out when I read these accounts of Jesus in the OT is how the people recognized who He was. They didn't see Him as some unknown stranger but as Lord.

I was just thinking about that this weekend. It sheds a lot of light on faith and how Jesus said blessed are those who believe and have not seen.

 

[Chopper]

Here's some thoughts that I've had concerning the Son of God Jesus, being allowed to visit the earth pre-incarnation. Apparently, because of verses like Ephesians 1:4 which speaks of predestination, there must have been conversation between Jesus and His Father about Who would visit earth with aid and information.

I'm using my imagination here, so don't take this literally. Jesus may have spoke to His Father and said "Father, you can't go down there because of your great holiness. If You go down among sinful men, all will die immediately. Mortal man cannot face your holiness and Person and live. I must go in Your place and We'll have to reduce my holiness so that men can still live."

The Incarnation helped to reduce that holiness but I'm not sure about the Old Testament.

Does anyone know how the Holy Jesus, the very Son of God, was able to come to the earth, pre-incarnation, and, lets say speak with Abraham about destroying Sodom, without killing Abraham?

 

[Nathan]

Here's some thoughts that I've had concerning the Son of God Jesus, being allowed to visit the earth pre-incarnation. Apparently, because of verses like Ephesians 1:4 which speaks of predestination, there must have been conversation between Jesus and His Father about Who would visit earth with aid and information.

I'm using my imagination here, so don't take this literally. Jesus may have spoke to His Father and said "Father, you can't go down there because of your great holiness. If You go down among sinful men, all will die immediately. Mortal man cannot face your holiness and Person and live. I must go in Your place and We'll have to reduce my holiness so that men can still live."

The Incarnation helped to reduce that holiness but I'm not sure about the Old Testament.

Does anyone know how the Holy Jesus, the very Son of God, was able to come to the earth, pre-incarnation, and, lets say speak with Abraham about destroying Sodom, without killing Abraham?

Great question chopper.

I'm gonna have to ponder that one. But it goes along with how He was able to meet with Moses on the mountain. Moses could go up, but if anyone else even touched the mountain they would die.

My first response without doing any study would be a form of grace. As in, God being filtered(lack of a better word) through grace to those He encountered.

We know that Jesus flesh was symbolically the veil in the temple. That veil is what separated God from man.

 

[Chopper]

Great question chopper.

I'm gonna have to ponder that one. But it goes along with how He was able to meet with Moses on the mountain. Moses could go up, but if anyone else even touched the mountain they would die.

My first response without doing any study would be a form of grace. As in, God being filtered(lack of a better word) through grace to those He encountered.

We know that Jesus flesh was symbolically the veil in the temple. That veil is what separated God from man.

Ok, the veil is interesting.

 

[Nathan]

Ok, the veil is interesting.

Very. Hebrews 10 is where you'll see it.

It's been a long time, but I did a study one time where the entire tabernacle is represented in Christ.

I don't remember if it was the studies point of view, being 'generous' with the interpretation, or if there is actual evidence. - like the curtain in Hebrews.

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

O Sandy, I'm so sorry to hear of your Husband's passing. I can't remember from our past fellowship if he was saved. Was he?

Yes he was saved. He is in the arms of Jesus.

 

[Nathan]

I was reading in Joshua the other day and saw another instance of Christ.

Jos 5:13-15
When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?” And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?”
And the commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

I chuckle and am amazed at the same time. What kind of resolve did Joshua have to see this 'man' with his sword drawn, and then ask if he was for or against them. Actually, I know what kind of resolve it is. That my friends is the kind of faith I wish I had.

Joshua was just checking out if he was going to have to kill the man or not. Then, come to find out, he is the commander of the army of the LORD? Not only that, but what we witness is that this had to be Christ because no angel ever allows worship - and he had to take off his sandals.

What a sight. I think it would be fearful, and it was after Joshua knew who He was, but before that Joshua's faith was so strong that he did not recognize Jesus. Personally, I think there is a duality lesson here.

1. We see Christ as the commander of God's army - which we again see when He comes again.

2. We see a faith that is good, but also can sometimes blind us to reality. I have to wonder if this wasn't a 'check' by God. Sometimes people of great faith 'run past' God. I think Joshua had no doubt that Jericho was theirs, but he needed to be sure to do so according to God's design.

I am not saying Joshua was doing anything wrong. I just think that God was keeping him in check. Much like He does with us. If Joshua did not actually notice that the Creator was standing before him - how often do we not notice when a simple messenger from God stands before us?

 

[Edward]

Great question chopper.

I'm gonna have to ponder that one. But it goes along with how He was able to meet with Moses on the mountain. Moses could go up, but if anyone else even touched the mountain they would die.

My first response without doing any study would be a form of grace. As in, God being filtered(lack of a better word) through grace to those He encountered.

We know that Jesus flesh was symbolically the veil in the temple. That veil is what separated God from man.

Indeed He was the veil, Brother. The only veil now is the veil of darkness and unbelief in our own hearts. But! Back to the topic.

God declares the end from the beginning, so if we want to understand the NT, we'll go to the OT first. Personally, I believe that every Word of the OT is meant for us end of the age believers also. Many people reject that notion outright, but I feel that it is true. We see Jesus clearly in Numbers 21: 8-9
8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.../

Which is obviously talking about how the Lord Jesus will have to be crucified (lifted up), then all who have been bitten (by sin) will be able to live by looking to Him, Jesus...

John 3:14
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:.../

 

[JES1023]

I have always loved the Word's (Jesus) statement in the 48th chapter of Isaiah:
16) Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there Am I: and now the Lord God and His Spirit, hath sent Me.
17) Thus saint the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I Am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Isaiah 48:16-17

These words of the Pre-Incarnated Christ Jesus give great evidence of the Godhead or Trinity if you prefer.

 

[JLB]

I have always loved the Word's (Jesus) statement in the 48th chapter of Isaiah:
16) Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there Am I: and now the Lord God and His Spirit, hath sent Me.
17) Thus saint the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I Am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Isaiah 48:16-17

These words of the Pre-Incarnated Christ Jesus give great evidence of the Godhead or Trinity if you prefer.

Beautiful!

 

[brother Paul]

a few things...

a) First we read that Jesus opened the minds of the Apostles to all that was spoken of Him in the Law and the Prophets (so it is there)
b) He tells us that "No man has ever seen the Father: and in one place says Never saw His form not heard His voice" (but we know the Lord appeared many times and even spoke)
c) We know that before He was born incarnate and named Jesus, He was already the Son/Word (the Son declares or makes manifest the Father)

Now strange as this may seem, and unknown to most, the pre-Christian tradition of the Rabbis which culminated in the 1st and 2nd century Targums recognizes a being who IS God and yet is sent from God who they call "the Word of the LORD" and believed this being (who sometimes came as a man, sometimes as "The Angel of the LORD", sometimes as the Shekinah or brightness of God's glory) was YHVH manifest and whenever there are Anthropomorphisms they always and only refer to the Word (in Aramaic called The Memra).

So everytime the Lord appears to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Manoah, and so on,,,,it is the Son/Word not the Father....and we know this one (see Exodus 3 as Chopper pointed out) has identified Himself as YHVH

 

[brother Paul]

Zechariah 2 “For this is what the Lord Almighty says….“Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, says YHVH.”

Who will come and dwell? YHVH

“And many nations (goyim, gentiles) shall be joined to YHVH in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee (YHVH…see above), and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

Huh? YHVH said He will come and dwell in the midst of thee, but YHVH sent Him…

Does this mean there are two or more YHVHs (no, Only One)? If it did then all the rest of scriptures would be in error (for example Isa. 43:10)…so it must be that there is one YHVH, who is simultaneously more than one. The YHVH who sends and the YHVH sent are one YHVH.

 

[JLB]

Does this mean there are two or more YHVHs

The Father is YHWH.
The Son is YHWH.

Jesus is the Lord God, YHWH.

Jesus is not the Father.

Jesus is the Son of God, or God the Son.


8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.


Jesus is the Son of God, the only begotten Son, before the foundation of the world, and it is Jesus who created all things.


Consider these passages, concerning Him from the Old Testament.


And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22

and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13

again

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. Zechariah 12:8

• In addition, It was the Angel of the Lord, as Lord and God, who made Covenant with the children of Israel and led them out of Egypt.

Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this?3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” 4 So it was, when the Angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept.
Judges 2:1-4


Let's consider The Angel of the Lord, and what an angel is.

• An angel is a spirit.
• An angel is a messenger.
• Angels are sons of God.

The Angel of the Lord would then be: The Spirit of the Lord
The Angel of the Lord would then be: The Messenger [Word] of God
The Angel of the Lord would then be: The Son of God


Jesus is the Son of God, and is not the Father.

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17



JLB

 

[selihah]

If Jesus created the universe why isnt he mentioned by name as the creator?

 

[brother Paul]

By now it should be quite apparent that at least according to the Scriptures, it is said that in the last days it is by and through the true and worthy Scepter of Judah, King Messiah, that God’s Kingdom shall be established.

It is in Him (Daniel's coming one, who will be "like unto a son of man”), that the stick of Joseph, and the stick of Judah would be reunited into one stick (Ezekiel 37:19). This coming “one” is the LORD’s human Sanctuary; the Tabernacle of God “with us“, of whom it has been written, "I will set My Tabernacle among you…and I shall be your God, and you shall be My people" (Leviticus 26). He is the fallen tabernacle of David that was raised up. The Tabernacle not made with hands. In this one, called elsewhere the Branch (natzar/tsemech), it has been revealed that the Messiah that the Rabbi’s later called the son of Joseph, and the awaited Messiah, the son of David, are actually one and the same person.

The LORD most High, sends the one elsewhere called "the Lord our Righteousness" twice (Isaiah 11). The first time as “a light unto the gentiles”, and the door of grace was opened unto “whosoever will“ that would come, until the “fullness of the Gentiles“ (melo' goyim/Genesis 48) comes in, and many of every nation and tongue are gathered unto Him, and then He is sent again, a second time, to claim that which was redeemed (Zechariah 12:10).

In that Day, they all shall stand together as the one end time people of God, Jew and Gentile, one in Messiah, having embraced YHVH‘s manifest Glory, the Word. He is none other than the Epiphinea, or the “Me/him“ who first was pierced to do away with sin and establish everlasting righteousness, over whom the House of David, and all the end time inhabitants of Jerusalem shall mourn. Of whom it is also written that, in that Day, He will be King over all the earth!

The first time He came, His garments were washed in the wine of the grapes of God’s wrath (Genesis 49). The second time He comes wearing the reddened garments of His wounding, that He received in the house of His friends, to claim those whom He redeemed with His own blood, to deliver the final bruising to the head of the Serpent, and to his seed forever (Genesis 3:15). Only then shall the era of Peace be.

Psalm 96:11-13, tells us, “Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; Let the sea soar, and the fullness thereof. Let the field be joyful; and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice before the YHVH, for He is coming, for He comes forth to Judge all the earth with a righteous judgment, and the people with His truth".

When Judgment Day comes, the door of salvation, this wonderful fountain of grace, will be closed forever, and with the first resurrection, victory over sin, sickness, and death will have been realized for the saved, but for the unsaved who rejected Him and the knowledge of Him it is a Day of terror and outpoured wrath. All thanks and praise be to the Lord of lords and the God of gods, “the whole earth will be full of His Glory“.