crucifying self

[Guest]

I believe in asking hard questions, so here goes....

When we read about the crucifixion of Christ, we see a great deal of pain, even pain He endured that would have killed others before He even made it to the cross.

Yet in Gal. 2:20 it says, I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

We as a people tend to go around seeking to be pain free, even to the point of thinking that once we come to Christ, all our problems will disappear. I know people who believe that if one lives in poverty they cannot be believers (for example) Of course we all know of people who believe that if we are saved we need not ever be sick. Some believe that we should never be sad or in pain if we are believers.

So the question is this, how can we crucify self and our fleshly desires, if we expect to live the remainder of our earthly lives without pain? Personally, we have had to deny who we are (naturally created to be) in order to follow Christ, and it is very painful. Can we hope to live a Godly life on this earth without pain? Without denial of who we are? Didn't Christ even deny His "Godness"? Shouldn't our Godly lives be marked with "pain milestones"?

 

[Free]

You cannot live life without pain, whether physical or emotional. Pain is a part of life, it is a part of being human, and God can use it in various ways to perfect us. I would even argue that it is necessary for our spiritual growth and eventual perfection.

I know people who believe that if one lives in poverty they cannot be believers (for example) Of course we all know of people who believe that if we are saved we need not ever be sick. Some believe that we should never be sad or in pain if we are believers.

Well, those people are wrong.

 

[Guest]

You cannot live life without pain, whether physical or emotional. Pain is a part of life, it is a part of being human, and God can use it in various ways to perfect us. I would even argue that it is necessary for our spiritual growth and eventual perfection.

I know people who believe that if one lives in poverty they cannot be believers (for example) Of course we all know of people who believe that if we are saved we need not ever be sick. Some believe that we should never be sad or in pain if we are believers.

Well, those people are wrong.

agreed, so additional question, should we ever put ourselves in or allow ourselves to be put in a painful situation because of LOVE?

 

[Free]

agreed, so additional question, should we ever put ourselves in or allow ourselves to be put in a painful situation because of LOVE?

No. I do not think that there is anything Christian about purposefully seeking pain. However, there will always be times in life when we have to make choices that will result in pain.

 

[Orion]

No such thing as a trouble free life, no matter how pious you are.

As for what Paul said, . . . just because he personally felt as though he is "crusified with Christ", that doesn't mean everyone should be. It isn't a prerequisite for salvation.

 

[Guest]

agreed, so additional question, should we ever put ourselves in or allow ourselves to be put in a painful situation because of LOVE?

No. I do not think that there is anything Christian about purposefully seeking pain. However, there will always be times in life when we have to make choices that will result in pain.

consider this, my father is abusive, I know this, and I know that every time I talk to him, I will inherit more abuse of one sort or another. Therefore, putting myself in a situation where we can talk, would show Christ's love, but would most probably result in pain...do I show that love, or protect myself from pain?

Or what about moving someplace that you know will be painful so that you can keep your kids together and with loving parents?

Maybe going around the world to share Christ with people who will most likely kill you....people all over the world, are asked to follow Christ even though they know that doing so will cause pain...isn't crucifying self suppose to be painful? Expected pain?

 

[Guest]

No such thing as a trouble free life, no matter how pious you are.

As for what Paul said, . . . just because he personally felt as though he is "crusified with Christ", that doesn't mean everyone should be. It isn't a prerequisite for salvation.

are you sure? I'm not sure it's a prerequisite for salvation, but it seems to be a prerequisite for Godliness...

Luke 6:22"Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man.

Matt. 10:22"You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Luke 21:17All men will hate you because of me.

John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

 

[Heneni]

Hi there.

Our old nature and our new nature both have desires. The old man has different desires to the new man. And so they are in conflict with each other.

The old man has hopes and dreams, and a very strong desire to see those hopes and dreams come to fruition. To deny ourselves is to crucify those hopes and dreams for a far more superior hope. Hope in christ.

I have always believed that to ask a man to give up on his hopes and dreams is to ask him to die. And many feel exactly like that when their hopes and dreams are shattered. We willingly give up our fleshly hopes and dreams, deny our flesh its desires, thereby causing it to die, finding no opportunity to fullfill its own desires.

All that we do in our fleshly nature is due to ill placed desires, and when we deny our flesh what it wants...it dies and in my opinion the best way to do it, is to deny it any hope of realising its own hopes and dreams.

Our hope is in christ. Christ in us, the hope of glory. Our hopes and dreams of glory is rooted in christ. Far superior than any hopes and dreams our flesh can realise. For god is able to do far above anything we could ever hope or dream for.

Heneni

 

[Guest]

Hi there.

Our old nature and our new nature both have desires. The old man has different desires to the new man. And so they are in conflict with each other.

The old man has hopes and dreams, and a very strong desire to see those hopes and dreams come to fruition. To deny ourselves is to crucify those hopes and dreams for a far more superior hope. Hope in christ.

I have always believed that to ask a man to give up on his hopes and dreams is to ask him to die. And many feel exactly like that when their hopes and dreams are shattered. We willingly give up our fleshly hopes and dreams, deny our flesh its desires, thereby causing it to die, finding no opportunity to fullfill its own desires.

All that we do in our fleshly nature is due to ill placed desires, and when we deny our flesh what it wants...it dies and in my opinion the best way to do it, is to deny it any hope of realising its own hopes and dreams.

Our hope is in christ. Christ in us, the hope of glory. Our hopes and dreams of glory is rooted in christ. Far superior than any hopes and dreams our flesh can realise. For god is able to do far above anything we could ever hope or dream for.

Heneni

so how painful can we expect that to be?

 

[Heneni]

Very painful. Your old nature will make you feel like its better to die then go on without its hopes being realised!

But we when we fully understand what lies in store for us,the pain can be endured. For the joy set before him jesus endured the cross. In the same way we joyfully endure the pain we feel for letting go of our hopes and dreams because we have a hope that will never dissapoint, and a sure glory that awaits us. Our losses here on earth is heart wrenching but consider it dung for the priceless reward for knowing christ.

The losses are not in any way comparable to the reward. That will help us to endure anything and everything.

:yes

 

[Guest]

Very painful. Your old nature will make you feel like its better to die then go on without its hopes being realised!

But we when we fully understand what lies in store for us,the pain can be endured. For the joy set before him jesus endured the cross. In the same way we joyfully endure the pain we feel for letting go of our hopes and dreams because we have a hope that will never dissapoint, and a sure glory that awaits us. Our losses here on earth is heart wrenching but consider it dung for the priceless reward for knowing christ.

The losses are not in any way comparable to the reward. That will help us to endure anything and everything.

:yes

Agreed, only thing I would add is that sometimes, the pain of denying who we are, can be so painful that we loose focus on the promise, when all we do is give, there is a point where the pain consumes us in this life. Those who find their focus again, will cry out something like "why have you forsaken me?" "How long will you hide your face from me?" etc. It is in those dark times that we realize the power of the Holy Spirit within and in those times that we allow the supernatural to be visible to the natural world

 

[donb1959]

I believe in asking hard questions, so here goes....

When we read about the crucifixion of Christ, we see a great deal of pain, even pain He endured that would have killed others before He even made it to the cross.

Yet in Gal. 2:20 it says, I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

We as a people tend to go around seeking to be pain free, even to the point of thinking that once we come to Christ, all our problems will disappear. I know people who believe that if one lives in poverty they cannot be believers (for example) Of course we all know of people who believe that if we are saved we need not ever be sick. Some believe that we should never be sad or in pain if we are believers.

So the question is this, how can we crucify self and our fleshly desires, if we expect to live the remainder of our earthly lives without pain? Personally, we have had to deny who we are (naturally created to be) in order to follow Christ, and it is very painful. Can we hope to live a Godly life on this earth without pain? Without denial of who we are? Didn't Christ even deny His "Godness"? Shouldn't our Godly lives be marked with "pain milestones"?

Read the book "The Problem with Pain" by CS Lewis. You may be closer to understanding the pain issue than even yuo believe razzel.

 

[Cornelius]

No such thing as a trouble free life, no matter how pious you are.

As for what Paul said, . . . just because he personally felt as though he is "crusified with Christ", that doesn't mean everyone should be. It isn't a prerequisite for salvation.

Unfortunately is is 100% a condition to salvation.


Luk 9:23 And he said unto all, If any man would come after me, (That would be talking about us as well) let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 9:25 For what is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose or forfeit his own self?

This means, if you are not crucified with Christ as Gal 2:20 states, you are not about to get eternal life. Taking up your cross daily means just that. Its not talking about something heavy that you carry, the cross is an instrument of death. That is where you go to get crucified. That is why Jesus talks about following Him (His example) so that we too can "die to self" so that Jesus can live through us.

 

[Cornelius]

Many Christians think about Christianity like a car wreck. They see themselves as the messed up car and now God is going to take the bumps out and give then a new coat of paint and take them to heaven.

But God has written off that old car and He wants it off the road forever. He has given us a New One called Christ. It your life now, but you cannot get it, if you still want to drive the old one around.

The old one is not going to heaven. Its has to die. The New One must come.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

 

[Guest]

No such thing as a trouble free life, no matter how pious you are.

As for what Paul said, . . . just because he personally felt as though he is "crusified with Christ", that doesn't mean everyone should be. It isn't a prerequisite for salvation.

Unfortunately is is 100% a condition to salvation.


Luk 9:23 And he said unto all, If any man would come after me, (That would be talking about us as well) let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 9:25 For what is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose or forfeit his own self?

This means, if you are not crucified with Christ as Gal 2:20 states, you are not about to get eternal life. Taking up your cross daily means just that. Its not talking about something heavy that you carry, the cross is an instrument of death. That is where you go to get crucified. That is why Jesus talks about following Him (His example) so that we too can "die to self" so that Jesus can live through us.

and so then, can we assume our pain will be reminicent of the pain He suffered on the cross? How many of us are willing to endure that kind of pain (not saying hanging on the cross, but rather giving all we are that some might believe. Denying our very essence so that some might come to repentance?

Are we willing to he hit by a train, stabbed with a knife, live someplace we hate, watch our children being beaten for our beliefs, for the simple hope that Jesus name might be evidenced to those who have not seen, or are we convinced that God "alone" can show them Christ? That our own hope is solely for ourselves and our family rather than for His good....Do we really know how to love the Lord?

 

[Cornelius]

Are we willing to he hit by a train, stabbed with a knife, live someplace we hate, watch our children being beaten for our beliefs, for the simple hope that Jesus name might be evidenced to those who have not seen, or are we convinced that God "alone" can show them Christ? That our own hope is solely for ourselves and our family rather than for His good....Do we really know how to love the Lord?

God may certainly ask some things from us and He has done so to past believers. But in essence dying to the old nature is just that. We take our old desires and sins to the cross.

In reality we die , every time we submit to the Word of God. He then manifests His life through that same Word . Its to love, when we are being hated. To die to self, is to turn the other cheek. Its to forgive again and again. Its to love our enemies. Its to give rather than to receive. Its to share your possessions with your brothers and sisters in need. Its to give up you life so that others may life. Its to follow the example of Jesus and not to follow the example of the flesh (lusts of the flesh)

We give up OUR life, so that HIS life can life in us. If we do not do that, we cannot have His life. We have to loose our soulish life with its soulish ambitions and lay it at His feet. Its gets crucified with Him.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

Eph 4:22 that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit;
Eph 4:23 and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24 and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

 

[Guest]

Are we willing to he hit by a train, stabbed with a knife, live someplace we hate, watch our children being beaten for our beliefs, for the simple hope that Jesus name might be evidenced to those who have not seen, or are we convinced that God "alone" can show them Christ? That our own hope is solely for ourselves and our family rather than for His good....Do we really know how to love the Lord?

God may certainly ask some things from us and He has done so to past believers. But in essence dying to the old nature is just that. We take our old desires and sins to the cross.

In reality we die , every time we submit to the Word of God. He then manifests His life through that same Word . Its to love, when we are being hated. To die to self, is to turn the other cheek. Its to forgive again and again. Its to love our enemies. Its to give rather than to receive. Its to share your possessions with your brothers and sisters in need. Its to give up you life so that others may life. Its to follow the example of Jesus and not to follow the example of the flesh (lusts of the flesh)

We give up OUR life, so that HIS life can life in us. If we do not do that, we cannot have His life. We have to loose our soulish life with its soulish ambitions and lay it at His feet. Its gets crucified with Him.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

Eph 4:22 that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit;
Eph 4:23 and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24 and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

Question, don't answer if you are uncomfortable doing so, if anyone is willing to answer, that is also exciting....where do you personally draw the line? We easily say we will give God our all, but when it comes down to it, there are things we aren't willing to give up...what line do you draw? Kids? Spouse? comforts? Church? Name of Christ?

 

[Cornelius]

The Bible does not give us a choice.

Luk 14:26 If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[Cornelius]

Note, the word "hate" here means to "love less". So if we love anything or anybody more than Christ, we cannot be His disciple.

 

[Guest]

Note, the word "hate" here means to "love less". So if we love anything or anybody more than Christ, we cannot be His disciple.

Yet we "all" act in selfish/self centered ways everyday....