crucifying self

[Cornelius]

Note, the word "hate" here means to "love less". So if we love anything or anybody more than Christ, we cannot be His disciple.

Yet we "all" act in selfish/self centered ways everyday....

Its because we do not live by faith.
First of all, we must believe that Gal2:20 is indeed already true, because the Bible says it is.Notice it is written in the past tense.Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.


Can you see that:
1) We HAVE been crucified?
2) We now have to live something by FAITH?

Can you tell me your understanding of this verse and what it means to you? If this is your starting point, you will see that the Lord will do the rest.

We will talk more of this, but we need to first establish that we are on the same ground here.

 

[Guest]

Are we willing to he hit by a train, stabbed with a knife, live someplace we hate, watch our children being beaten for our beliefs, for the simple hope that Jesus name might be evidenced to those who have not seen, or are we convinced that God "alone" can show them Christ? That our own hope is solely for ourselves and our family rather than for His good....Do we really know how to love the Lord?

God may certainly ask some things from us and He has done so to past believers. But in essence dying to the old nature is just that. We take our old desires and sins to the cross.

In reality we die , every time we submit to the Word of God. He then manifests His life through that same Word . Its to love, when we are being hated. To die to self, is to turn the other cheek. Its to forgive again and again. Its to love our enemies. Its to give rather than to receive. Its to share your possessions with your brothers and sisters in need. Its to give up you life so that others may life. Its to follow the example of Jesus and not to follow the example of the flesh (lusts of the flesh)

I think what you are missing is that it isn't just sharing, it's sharing till it hurts...for example, if I have 7 people to feed and one can of green beans and some day old bread, it isn't saying here, I have too much mustard, eat and be well...but rather, come, eat, we may all be hungry, but you will have sustainance...it is sacrificial giving, not just giving...it might even require that we don't eat at all, so that another can eat.

We give up OUR life, so that HIS life can life in us. If we do not do that, we cannot have His life. We have to loose our soulish life with its soulish ambitions and lay it at His feet. Its gets crucified with Him.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

Eph 4:22 that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit;
Eph 4:23 and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24 and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.[/quote]

 

[Guest]

Note, the word "hate" here means to "love less". So if we love anything or anybody more than Christ, we cannot be His disciple.

Yet we "all" act in selfish/self centered ways everyday....

Its because we do not live by faith.
First of all, we must believe that Gal2:20 is indeed already true, because the Bible says it is.Notice it is written in the past tense.Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.


Can you see that:
1) We HAVE been crucified?
2) We now have to live something by FAITH?

Can you tell me your understanding of this verse and what it means to you? If this is your starting point, you will see that the Lord will do the rest.

We will talk more of this, but we need to first establish that we are on the same ground here.

Both living in the Spirit (crucifying self that Christ might live in us) and working out our salvation daily (Philippians 2:11-13 ; Luke 9:22-24) are the marks of a believer who is living in the truth, not just proclaiming it.

 

[Cornelius]

I think what you are missing is that it isn't just sharing, it's sharing till it hurts...for example, if I have 7 people to feed and one can of green beans and some day old bread, it isn't saying here, I have too much mustard, eat and be well...but rather, come, eat, we may all be hungry, but you will have sustainance...it is sacrificial giving, not just giving...it might even require that we don't eat at all, so that another can eat.

I am not missing that, I would be in agreement with that One does not have to choose one way of dying to self over the other. We have simply lay down our lives for Jesus and for others.

 

[Guest]

I think what you are missing is that it isn't just sharing, it's sharing till it hurts...for example, if I have 7 people to feed and one can of green beans and some day old bread, it isn't saying here, I have too much mustard, eat and be well...but rather, come, eat, we may all be hungry, but you will have sustainance...it is sacrificial giving, not just giving...it might even require that we don't eat at all, so that another can eat.

I am not missing that, I would be in agreement with that One does not have to choose one way of dying to self over the other. We have simply lay down our lives for Jesus and for others.

Thus my question, now "uncomfortable" should we be....I know people who think

A. that when we become saved, all our "discomforts" vanish
B. You can't be in the Lord's will if you aren't miserable
C. You can't be in the Lord's will if you are miserable
and a host of things in between

What I am purposing is that the flesh will be "uncomfortable" in great pain, but the Spirit will be living in peace, trust, comfort....but in order to witness this phenom. as it were, we need to actually expect the flesh to know discomfort, hunger, lose, out of place, etc. so that the spirit can live. Most people draw a line, it can be food and shelter, family, sometimes less, like job, or house, but we all draw a line somewhere between what we are willing to crucify for the sake of Christ and what we will try to protect with our very lives. I have a friend that when her kids were young, proclaimed that she didn't want anyone watching her kids that wasn't willing to kill to protect her kids...I would rather proclaim that I didn't want anyone watching my children that didn't love with the love of Christ enough to sacrifice their life for those kids, rather than to kill for them. Her attitude was one that drew a line, showing what she held in the flesh and what she yielded to our Lord. It is quite unsettling to think about our kids being hurt for our beliefs, but it is a sacrificial fragrance to the Lord to possess a heart that allows even our children to be God's to protect, not our own.

This concept was testing in my own life, when a deacon's children attacked two of our children in a church my husband was pastoring. Everyone witnessing the event agreed there was no provocation apart from our children being the children of the pastor. In fact, our eldest son was on the verge of being taken to the hospital from the attack. When I look back, over that and other times I have been asked to deny self, I know the feeling of a heart that breaks, a physical heart that dies from lack of care, lack of fulfilling the essence of who we were created to be even. But I equally know the peace and joy that come when the world says there should be none. Sometimes I wonder where we should draw the line, when does our love result in people taking advantage of us, using us, just because they can. When do we stand up for ourselves? In a life fully yielded to God, is there a line between defending self, and defending God? When I first came to Christ, I asked Him to become so much a part of me that it was impossible to know where He began and I ended...the further I go in my life, the harder it is for me to know where that line really is...in fact, not so long ago, a dear friend talked about how we were where we were because we gave it all that others might have, even at the cost of our own family. I think that is pretty accurate, so is it them wrong, to desire the comforts we denied ourselves? To want to live in a decent house, decent neighborhood, live where we thrive within ourselves? Is it evil, or selfish to desire a job that pays for the basics of life, or are these things symptoms of a life, not crucified, not given over totally to our Lord?

 

[Cornelius]

You ask difficult questions
But I do understand because the same thoughts have gone through my head. But here is an example. I know the Bible says to give to those who ask. Then two people came into my life over a period of time and saw that I live by that scripture. Then they started asking and I started giving. One lady wanted to study , so she had me paying her rent and studies and phone bills (It was like paying for a divorce) this lasted more than two years. Then another similar situation started. I still gave. It got to a point where it became a real burden to make enough money for everybody. But God sees the heart and at that time, He brought the balance into my life by a simple scripture :

2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, If any will not work, neither let him eat.
Well the lights went on for me and I stopped . Both these refused to work , although they could. They saw a gap and took it. So God has placed scripture in place for us to protect us from abusers too. On the other hand, God is sovereign and He kept me blind to that scripture until He achieved something in my life too. I still give, what I have belongs to Him. But I am responsible to know the Scriptures so that I am not out on my own, but that He can live through me. God does not approve of freeloaders.He says they must not eat, so I was sinning in a way, by feeding them.

I really do not think that God is into us living in luxury, but He says we must have clothing and food and a roof. Have a job that you love to do ! 2Th 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
2Th 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well-doing. In this you would be able to share with others too.
Turn the other cheek. From what you have written I see that you do that and you do not add to the Word excuses to get you out of it.

Please do not get legalistic about it. You will know when that happens, when your joy goes away and you feel burdened. Then you are in your own strength. Once we understand that we have truly died with Christ, we will also realize that He now lives in us and through us. So He is the One who will guide you in and through these decisions.

Once we learn that God is our source and that He is the provider of everything, we can give freely , knowing that He again will supply to us. This is something that we grow into. We must first learn and have the faith that He indeed, will supply our every need.

 

[Cornelius]

but it is a sacrificial fragrance to the Lord to possess a heart that allows even our children to be God's to protect, not our own.

This is true and can only come from a heart that indeed believes in a God that would protect. I know a couple who believe this and their child died. It did not change anything in what they believe.They know that even if it looked in the flesh like the opposite, that God indeed is in control. Her death was still in the loving plan of their Father.Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of Jehovah Is the death of his saints. (This obviously also is speaking of death of self too ) Their faith went beyond "staying alive", and reached into trust in a sovereign God, Who knows and cares.To them God is still the One protecting their little girl. And that is true. Its called surrender.

 

[Guest]

You ask difficult questions
But I do understand because the same thoughts have gone through my head. But here is an example. I know the Bible says to give to those who ask. Then two people came into my life over a period of time and saw that I live by that scripture. Then they started asking and I started giving. One lady wanted to study , so she had me paying her rent and studies and phone bills (It was like paying for a divorce) this lasted more than two years. Then another similar situation started. I still gave. It got to a point where it became a real burden to make enough money for everybody. But God sees the heart and at that time, He brought the balance into my life by a simple scripture :

2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, If any will not work, neither let him eat.
Well the lights went on for me and I stopped . Both these refused to work , although they could. They saw a gap and took it. So God has placed scripture in place for us to protect us from abusers too. On the other hand, God is sovereign and He kept me blind to that scripture until He achieved something in my life too. I still give, what I have belongs to Him. But I am responsible to know the Scriptures so that I am not out on my own, but that He can live through me. God does not approve of freeloaders.He says they must not eat, so I was sinning in a way, by feeding them.

I really do not think that God is into us living in luxury, but He says we must have clothing and food and a roof. Have a job that you love to do ! 2Th 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
2Th 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well-doing. In this you would be able to share with others too.
Turn the other cheek. From what you have written I see that you do that and you do not add to the Word excuses to get you out of it.

Please do not get legalistic about it. You will know when that happens, when your joy goes away and you feel burdened. Then you are in your own strength. Once we understand that we have truly died with Christ, we will also realize that He now lives in us and through us. So He is the One who will guide you in and through these decisions.

Once we learn that God is our source and that He is the provider of everything, we can give freely , knowing that He again will supply to us. This is something that we grow into. We must first learn and have the faith that He indeed, will supply our every need.

contentment is indeed a problem for most, they don't know how to trust, how to rest in our Lord's love. But that is the second part of my delima...currently our hearts ache about where and how we live...a life that came to us because of love. Now that is a long story but the short version is that not only is where and how we live bad, but it goes totally against the essence of who God created us to be. But recently we began attending a church that actually acts like the church, a church that as they find out how and where we live, feel compelled to do something...so then you need to consider not only your own "contentment" but also how or better stated how much to allow others to love you with the love of Christ...honestly we have never been in this situation before, people biteing at the bit to love us with the unselfish sacrificial love of Christ...but they can only do so much, and so allowing them to love while we love them in return sometimes becomes....hum...how to say it....a battle of who can and should provide what...take for example our current situation, we have learned to be content even though it hurts to the max, but there are others who have not learned to be content...how then can we allow the church to help us while others suffer? Is it selfishness that we even want this to end? It's not always as easy as scripture says X, sometimes, it's much harder, sometimes the pain doesn't go away, but peace and joy remain....

 

[Guest]

but it is a sacrificial fragrance to the Lord to possess a heart that allows even our children to be God's to protect, not our own.

This is true and can only come from a heart that indeed believes in a God that would protect. I know a couple who believe this and their child died. It did not change anything in what they believe.They know that even if it looked in the flesh like the opposite, that God indeed is in control. Her death was still in the loving plan of their Father.Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of Jehovah Is the death of his saints. (This obviously also is speaking of death of self too ) Their faith went beyond "staying alive", and reached into trust in a sovereign God, Who knows and cares.To them God is still the One protecting their little girl. And that is true. Its called surrender.

Praise His Holy Name, but make sure that they give themself permission to grieve in the midst of that trust, grieving and trust are not opposites as many in the church try to proclaim. Thanks for sharing you did my heart good.

 

[Cornelius]

.a battle of who can and should provide what...take for example our current situation, we have learned to be content even though it hurts to the max, but there are others who have not learned to be content...how then can we allow the church to help us while others suffer? Is it selfishness that we even want this to end? It's not always as easy as scripture says X, sometimes, it's much harder, sometimes the pain doesn't go away, but peace and joy remain....

It seems like you are indeed in a trial from the Lord. I have no idea what you are going through, but it does seem that the Lord is using others in this , so they too can be Christ-like. Its not selfish to receive from them, because we read in Acts that the church provided for each other's needs, so nobody lacked anything. This is indeed the way for a body of believers to walk. We cannot reach everybody, but the certainly can and must care for you if you are in their fellowship. Its starts there and that is Biblical.

If peace and joy remains, then this is bringing you something , that money cannot buy. We are allowed to discuss this with the Lord in private. You may ask Him to show you the end of this trial . Sometimes we only need to see the end , even if it is still a bit in the future. Ask Him and He will answer you.I will pray for you as well and I will agree with you , that the Lord will clearly show you His purpose with this.

your brother
Cornelius

 

[Guest]

.a battle of who can and should provide what...take for example our current situation, we have learned to be content even though it hurts to the max, but there are others who have not learned to be content...how then can we allow the church to help us while others suffer? Is it selfishness that we even want this to end? It's not always as easy as scripture says X, sometimes, it's much harder, sometimes the pain doesn't go away, but peace and joy remain....

It seems like you are indeed in a trial from the Lord. I have no idea what you are going through, but it does seem that the Lord is using others in this , so they too can be Christ-like. Its not selfish to receive from them, because we read in Acts that the church provided for each other's needs, so nobody lacked anything. This is indeed the way for a body of believers to walk. We cannot reach everybody, but the certainly can and must care for you if you are in their fellowship. Its starts there and that is Biblical.

If peace and joy remains, then this is bringing you something , that money cannot buy. We are allowed to discuss this with the Lord in private. You may ask Him to show you the end of this trial . Sometimes we only need to see the end , even if it is still a bit in the future. Ask Him and He will answer you.I will pray for you as well and I will agree with you , that the Lord will clearly show you His purpose with this.

your brother
Cornelius

He will not only reveal His will, His purpose, but He will allow and use the same Love to deliver us as we used to come to this place. Thanks for the prayers, I wish I could get people to see and understanding that the things of this world are not the enemy, but rather the things that hold us from God are the enemy. (Living for self is what keeps us from a Holy God.)

As you pray for us, please pray for an extended family member who could loose some of his hatred and bitterness, and become less violent to his wife, something we have prayed for for a very long time...what a sweet deliverance, to see not only our "desires" but the heart of another changed as well.

 

[Joe67]

Fellow members of the body of Jesus,

The following 2 testimonies seem useful at this time.

1 Cor 15:31
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. KJV

2 Cor 4:10-12
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.KJV

Being crucified with our Lord is a continual burning offering. Thus we are being continually resurrected with him and sitting in heavenly places in him at the right hand of the Father. Thus we are being continually opposed and accused by the accuser of the brethren.

When the daily is taken away then our experience will come to the end, where Jesus hands the kingdom over to the Father and Jesus will be subject unto the Father that God may be all in all.

Joe

 

[Guest]

Fellow members of the body of Jesus,

The following 2 testimonies seem useful at this time.

1 Cor 15:31
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. KJV

2 Cor 4:10-12
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.KJV

Being crucified with our Lord is a continual burning offering. Thus we are being continually resurrected with him and sitting in heavenly places in him at the right hand of the Father. Thus we are being continually opposed and accused by the accuser of the brethren.

When the daily is taken away then our experience will come to the end, where Jesus hands the kingdom over to the Father and Jesus will be subject unto the Father that God may be all in all.

Joe

As I read your post, I was reminded of this verse as well...Luke 10:19 (New International Version)

19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

One night, I had taken a local youth to a Youth for Christ meeting. When we came home, she wanted to talk about the convictions God was placing on her heart. So we sat in the car in the dark and talked about the things of God. As we talked, she began very angry and though I didn't know it till later, she pulled a knife on me and tried to stab me with it. A force, that she describes as a force like that of a hand, held her arm until she was ready to put the knife away and release her anger. Seldom to people actually believe (as in living like they believe) in the protective nature of God for people who spread the good news to others, I wonder if this plays into our understanding of crucifying self as well. I wonder if we hold self so dearly partly because we don't trust God to handle self with care, preserving the very nature He created within us?

 

[Cornelius]

I wonder if we hold self so dearly partly because we don't trust God to handle self with care, preserving the very nature He created within us?

My heart jumps when I read the truth When we learn to live in the secret place (Christ) of the Most High we will definitely see the power of God manifest in our lives.

You are right about this too being related to death to self.

Last year , we had a spree of robberies where I live. I live outside the city on a farm and I have no security and no curtains. Just windows looking onto the wild. At night its just black and here where I am typing I see nothing outside but night. So last year, when shots were being fired outside in the dark close to my house, I knew that I was an open target. I emailed a friend in America and lo and behold they answered back immediately . He wrote: Cornelius, lay your life down now ! Immediately I saw the wisdom in that, and just went ahead and did exactly what he said. I felt the peace of God come over me and I kept sitting in front of the open glass window as the shots rang out outside. I KNEW that my life was secure in His hands because this life was His and not mine to protect.

God is amazing, when we finally start to trust His Word.

C

 

[Guest]

I wonder if we hold self so dearly partly because we don't trust God to handle self with care, preserving the very nature He created within us?

My heart jumps when I read the truth When we learn to live in the secret place (Christ) of the Most High we will definitely see the power of God manifest in our lives.

You are right about this too being related to death to self.

Last year , we had a spree of robberies where I live. I live outside the city on a farm and I have no security and no curtains. Just windows looking onto the wild. At night its just black and here where I am typing I see nothing outside but night. So last year, when shots were being fired outside in the dark close to my house, I knew that I was an open target. I emailed a friend in America and lo and behold they answered back immediately . He wrote: Cornelius, lay your life down now ! Immediately I saw the wisdom in that, and just went ahead and did exactly what he said. I felt the peace of God come over me and I kept sitting in front of the open glass window as the shots rang out outside. I KNEW that my life was secure in His hands because this life was His and not mine to protect.

God is amazing, when we finally start to trust His Word.

C

Praise the Lord and thank Him that He protected you...in my personal experience it is often easier to trust God with our own life rather than the lives of say our children...what are your experiences?

 

[Cornelius]

I do not have children, but I can well imagine that must be hard for a parent. The Bible says we perish because of a lack of knowledge. So knowledge about God and who He is , about His nature, character and authority, must be gained first. God does not expect us to just walk into great faith. Abraham the father of faith, took 20 years to get to Isaac ! Israel went into the desert to learn how to trust God. God wants us to experience Him and His goodness and then we must build on those experiences. The longer the walk, the more we are suppose to fall back on what we have learned and so our trust must grow in Him.

Some never take the first step on this road and so they never learn. They stick to the reasons why we "cannot" . God does not want this. The Israelites who did not learn and stuck to their unbelief, perished in the desert. God did not kill those who had difficulty believing in the beginning of their trip through the wilderness, but the longer the road, the more severe the consequences became.

 

[Guest]

I do not have children, but I can well imagine that must be hard for a parent. The Bible says we perish because of a lack of knowledge. So knowledge about God and who He is , about His nature, character and authority, must be gained first. God does not expect us to just walk into great faith. Abraham the father of faith, took 20 years to get to Isaac ! Israel went into the desert to learn how to trust God. God wants us to experience Him and His goodness and then we must build on those experiences. The longer the walk, the more we are suppose to fall back on what we have learned and so our trust must grow in Him.

Some never take the first step on this road and so they never learn. They stick to the reasons why we "cannot" . God does not want this. The Israelites who did not learn and stuck to their unbelief, perished in the desert. God did not kill those who had difficulty believing in the beginning of their trip through the wilderness, but the longer the road, the more severe the consequences became.

right on...I was asked to prayer for a young mother who was having difficulty with her daughter "growing" up..I found it hard to pray for this woman, I mean I know from experience as well as from stories that kids go a lot further away, do a lot worse things, go through a lot more trials, than this situation, sometimes I have to remind myself that her pain is real as well. Her struggle over self just as bad.

 

[Wantingtoknow6783]

Trials, Sufferings and Pains in life are meant as ways to grow and become a stronger Christian. We should not go looking for these things but while we pray to God that we may grow and become stronger Christians he may allow some of these Trials to enter our lives and use them to help us grow and become stronger. We cannot grow or become what God wants us to be without Trials and Suffering. Look at it like a plant that needs watering. While its being watered it does no good for the plant but it is after it gets watered and the light shines on it, it will begin to grow. If a plant is not watered it can never grow.

 

[Guest]

Trials, Sufferings and Pains in life are meant as ways to grow and become a stronger Christian. We should not go looking for these things but while we pray to God that we may grow and become stronger Christians he may allow some of these Trials to enter our lives and use them to help us grow and become stronger. We cannot grow or become what God wants us to be without Trials and Suffering. Look at it like a plant that needs watering. While its being watered it does no good for the plant but it is after it gets watered and the light shines on it, it will begin to grow. If a plant is not watered it can never grow.

so then are you advocating that trials, hardships and pain only come into our lives so that we might grow?

 

[Joe67]

To all posters here in this thread,

A key Scripture that the Lord has brought to my heart and mind is:

Rom 8:9-11
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. KJV

Rom 8:17-19
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. KJV

Rom 8:21
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. KJV

Rom 8:23-25
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. KJV

These Scriptures testify of an orderly line of experience and speak plainly.

Joe