Day of the unknown hour?

[whirlwind]

Please provide chapter and verse with your quotes. It would be greatly appreciated. :yes

What clouds does He come on that "every eye shall see?"

The "swift cloud" the "LORD rideth upon," [Isaiah 19:1] is the same cloud Ezekiel saw.

Where is the Historical evidence of The Egyptians trembling at His presence in that cloud that was visible to all Egyptians as Is 19:1 states?

There is no historical evidence as it has not yet happened. It is written....shall come into Egypt, shall be moved at His presence, shall melt in the midst. It is all future. Egypt the literal country represents the world and it's wordly lusts.

[quote:1jn0kalx] I can't comment on "and was seen by the eyes of all flesh and all nations" in connection to the swift cloud....please provide chapter and verse. Do the two go together?

By your name, I would think you would know already, but ok,

Lets first connect Clouds to Whirlwinds:

Jeremiah 4:13
“ Behold, he shall come up like clouds, And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!â€Â

Ezekiel 1:4
Then I looked, and behold, a whirlwind was coming out of the north, a great cloud with raging fire engulfing itself; and brightness was all around it and radiating out of its midst like the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

# Nahum 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked.The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet.

Now after establishing that the Whirlwinds and Clouds of God are synonymous, lets connect them to the being seen by the nations part:

For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south.(Zechariah 9:13-16)

Show us the Historical evidence of Yahweh being SEEN over Greece in that Cloudy Whirlwind.
Surely Such a hugely VISIBLE event of God being seen by an ENTIRE COUNTRY would have been recorded in the annuls of History somewhere, yes?[/quote:1jn0kalx]


Again....I will cut off the chariot, He shall speak peace unto the heathen, His dominion shall be from sea even to sea. This is the future.

Again, now that we KNOW, by clear Biblical teaching that Clouds are the Mode of Transportation of God, please show us the Historical evidence of God Kindling a fire being SEEN BY ALL FLESH in the 6th Century BC as stated here:

Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

I will kindle, it shall devour, shall not be quenched, shall be burnt, shall see, will draw forth, will cut off, I will cut off, shall my sword go forth, all flesh shall know......All future!

Clearly, a historical event of God's of God's actual Sword being drawn that was seen visibly by ALL FLESH would have been recorded in some extra biblical historical account, yes?

Yes, it would but...it hasn't yet happened so...no record.

Or, please show us the Historical event of The eyes of all nations seeing God's VISIBLE Arm as the Bible states it was here:
Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

That chapter is about the future when...."for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean." That certainly isn't about today. :o

Surely, WW, Such a GLOBALLY VISIBLE event of Gods Holy Arm being seen by the physical eyes of ALL NATIONS would have been recorded somewhere besides scripture, yes?????

WHERE is the Historical evidence of these MASSIVELY, even GLOBALLY, VISIBLE events of God being SEEN?

How can they be recorded if they have not happened? These are prophecies about the end of days...not 70AD.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Dearest Matthew....everything I see in the Bible points to future events.

Greetings, Whirlwind! What everything? Agree with me or not, that is not the issue. You MUST address the time statements, Whirlwind. They are a huge problem for your perspective. They do not simply go away by a desperate and unjustified appeal to 2 Peter 3:8. You cannot take the Greek word for near (engus) and make it mean "near" in one verse and "far" in another! You cannot take the Greek word for shortly (tachos) and make it mean "shortly" or "soon" in one verse and "very far off" in another! You cannot, without justifiable precedent, take Jesus' use of "this generation" to mean His contemporaries in 19 of the 20 times He uses it but make it mean some very distant generation in Matthew 24:34! You cannot justifiably and with any credibility deny that John was shown things that were in his day to SHORTLY take place; the time was THEN near!

Honestly, Whirlwind, if preterists attempted this type of twisting and manipulating, futurists would be all over them! And justifiably so. We all must come to this crossroads--will we accept at face value the numerous time words in the Scriptures and adjust our understanding of the nature of His coming, the resurrection, and the judgment or will we insist that those things MUST occur in a certain way and thereby do injustice to the clear timing? YOU cannot "see" how Jesus could possibly have coming back in A. D. 70--therefore the time words must be adjusted and manipulated. YOU cannot "see" how the resurrection could have taken place in the way you insist that it must, therefore, you redefine the time statements. YOU cannot "see" how the judgment took place when Jesus returned in A. D. 70, so you ignore the time words that indicated that it did.

Believe as you do--that's your prerogative. But please be honest enough to admit that there are problems with your eschatological views. You can say that everything you see points to future events ONLY if you do not deal honestly with the time words. Their force and impact will not go away.

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[parousia70]

.everything I see in the Bible points to future events.

So this is yet future to us?
Genesis 7:4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.

 

[Sparkey]

Although we must look through a mirror darkly at some things I can't help but wonder if we can tell the difference between Summer and Fall?

Is this scriptural in your opinions?

~Sparrowhawke

 

[whirlwind]

.everything I see in the Bible points to future events.

So this is yet future to us?
Genesis 7:4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.

The flood of Noah, which was a literal event, will again happen. So yes...it is future. The flood will be a flood of lies and all that are not on the ark will perish.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

 

[Matthew24:34]

.everything I see in the Bible points to future events.

So this is yet future to us?
Genesis 7:4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.

The flood of Noah, which was a literal event, will again happen. So yes...it is future. The flood will be a flood of lies and all that are not on the ark will perish.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

That's an interesting Bible reference you gave, Whirlwind. Let's exegete 1 Corinthians 10:11. I love this passage because in it Paul makes clear the relationship those OT Saints had with Christ! They had spiritual food, spiritual drink and a spiritual Rock--and that Rock was Christ! But those who knew and obeyed God were a minority. Most did not please God and they perished.

Paul admonishes the brethren to whom he is writing to not follow in their sinful footsteps. All the things that happened to those OT Jews were written as examples to those of Paul's day--for OUR admonition. Why? Because upon THEM, Paul and those of his day, the "ends of the AGES have come!"
The Greek word is clearly aionon (from aion--AGE). The verb (katenteken from katantao) is in the perfect, active indicative form--have come. It is clear--the ends of the ages had come upon THEM!

Whirlwind, do you still not see how you have been conditioned to see US in everything. What is the context? Are there not principles for us in this passage? Of course there are. But I say again, we cannot make proper application until we make proper interpretation! The ends of the AGES were not to come upon US--they were to come upon THEM and they did!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[parousia70]

.everything I see in the Bible points to future events.

So this is yet future to us?
Genesis 7:4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.

The flood of Noah, which was a literal event, will again happen. So yes...it is future.

So It will happen seven days from today?

 

[whirlwind]

That's an interesting Bible reference you gave, Whirlwind. Let's exegete 1 Corinthians 10:11. I love this passage because in it Paul makes clear the relationship those OT Saints had with Christ! They had spiritual food, spiritual drink and a spiritual Rock--and that Rock was Christ! But those who knew and obeyed God were a minority. Most did not please God and they perished.

Paul admonishes the brethren to whom he is writing to not follow in their sinful footsteps. All the things that happened to those OT Jews were written as examples to those of Paul's day--for OUR admonition. Why? Because upon THEM, Paul and those of his day, the "ends of the AGES have come!"
The Greek word is clearly aionon (from aion--AGE). The verb (katenteken from katantao) is in the perfect, active indicative form--have come. It is clear--the ends of the ages had come upon THEM!

Michael, you need to broaden your horizons. :yes They are written for all God's children....ALL OF US. The end of the age has not yet come and will not until....

11 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy, with the brightness of His coming:

The wicked one and his workers are alive and well...not yet destroyed.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Some believe the change is achieved when we are saved and we are certainly changed but...it can't be the meaning of the verse for the dead, which I believe means the spiritually dead, are not raised into their incorruptible bodies...I see them everywhere and they still have the ability to age, bleed, etc. And, I don't think any of us are immortal...yet.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Folks are still taking that mark so the beast and liar haven't yet walked the plank.

Until then we must not be "in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

Whirlwind, do you still not see how you have been conditioned to see US in everything. What is the context? Are there not principles for us in this passage? Of course there are. But I say again, we cannot make proper application until we make proper interpretation! The ends of the AGES were not to come upon US--they were to come upon THEM and they did!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

Even when I was a child I saw "us" in the words, at least the ones I was given to understand and I wasn't raised in a Sunday School/Church environment.

 

[whirlwind]

So It will happen seven days from today?

Maybe...do you have your boat? Instead of being a bit silly consider.....


Chapter eight of Genesis holds some interesting accounts of end times. As Paul said....Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. [1 Corinthians 10:11] So...the very beginning tells us how it will be in the end.

To understand how the Flood of Noah applies to the end of days I need to begin in:

Genesis 7:22-24 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth; and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.


At the time of the end there will be a flood....this time it will be a flood of lies from Satan and they will last one hundred and fifty days / five months....the same as the time the "waters prevailed upon the earth." That will be the time of Satan's tribulation, the time he will be on earth. Everything with a "breath of life" - a living soul, will perish....some, those on the ark, will be spiritually alive while those floundering around in the flood of lies will be considered spiritually dead. They are considered dead because they take the mark of the beast. As it was so shall it be in the end...there will be both those of the Adamic line (Israel) and Gentiles that will be on the ark. In Noah's time it was his family and two of the different races....gentiles.

The number eight means new beginnings. This chapter eight is also about a new beginning, as it will be after His 2nd. Advent....not the perfect eternity yet but the millennium when those that are the "spiritually dead," those that weren't on the ark with Noah, will be taught.

8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged:

God's elect will be in the ark...they are those still considered a "living thing" as they are not spiritually dead. The "wind" is the Ruach...the Holy Spirit and it will "pass over the earth" and rid it of all evil things, the waters or...flood of lies. Those that took the mark of the beast, those not on the ark, will experience the wrath of God....they believed the false christ.

8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

The number seven means spiritual perfection and the number seventeen "intensifies the significance of the number seven...it is the combination of two perfect numbers, seven and ten...when united in the number seventeen we have a union of spiritual perfection plus ordinal perfection...or, the perfection of spiritual order." [E.W. Bullinger ~ Numbers in Scripture.]


So...the ark, the overcomers, rested during the millennium. A time of spirtual perfection and order.

8:6.And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made;

Forty means probation. The time of probation for those that took the "mark of the beast" during this age will be tested at the end of the millennium...their probation is over. Which way will they go?

8:7.And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.

A raven is an unclean bird. I believe this represents Satan being released at the end of the millennium to test those that are spiritually dead:

Revelation 20:7-8 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


Genesis 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;

The dove of course represents the Holy Spirit.

8:9-10 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark. And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;

The dove, the Holy Spirit, is kept from all those that follow Satan. They are thrown in the lake of fire with Satan....the final end for them.

8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leave pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. (14) And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.


One solar year later....representing the millennium, it comes to an end and the "earth is dried." The earth is rid of all evil. Satan has been thrown in the fire, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." [Rev.20:15]

 

[Matthew24:34]

That's an interesting Bible reference you gave, Whirlwind. Let's exegete 1 Corinthians 10:11. I love this passage because in it Paul makes clear the relationship those OT Saints had with Christ! They had spiritual food, spiritual drink and a spiritual Rock--and that Rock was Christ! But those who knew and obeyed God were a minority. Most did not please God and they perished.

Paul admonishes the brethren to whom he is writing to not follow in their sinful footsteps. All the things that happened to those OT Jews were written as examples to those of Paul's day--for OUR admonition. Why? Because upon THEM, Paul and those of his day, the "ends of the AGES have come!"
The Greek word is clearly aionon (from aion--AGE). The verb (katenteken from katantao) is in the perfect, active indicative form--have come. It is clear--the ends of the ages had come upon THEM!

Michael, you need to broaden your horizons. :yes They are written for all God's children....ALL OF US. The end of the age has not yet come and will not until....

11 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy, with the brightness of His coming:

The wicked one and his workers are alive and well...not yet destroyed.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Some believe the change is achieved when we are saved and we are certainly changed but...it can't be the meaning of the verse for the dead, which I believe means the spiritually dead, are not raised into their incorruptible bodies...I see them everywhere and they still have the ability to age, bleed, etc. And, I don't think any of us are immortal...yet.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Folks are still taking that mark so the beast and liar haven't yet walked the plank.

Until then we must not be "in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

Whirlwind, do you still not see how you have been conditioned to see US in everything. What is the context? Are there not principles for us in this passage? Of course there are. But I say again, we cannot make proper application until we make proper interpretation! The ends of the AGES were not to come upon US--they were to come upon THEM and they did!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

Even when I was a child I saw "us" in the words, at least the ones I was given to understand and I wasn't raised in a Sunday School/Church environment.

Greetings, Whirlwind: It is unfortunate that you wrongly saw "us" in the words from the time you were a child. Before you go on to 2 Thessalonians 2, would you please establish the context by dealing with 2 Thessalonians 1? Who was to be given rest when the Lord was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels? In the context, Paul is giving thanks for those very Thessalonians of his day--those very ones to whom he is writing this personal letter. We must begin with this--"To the CHURCH OF THE THESSALONIANS in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Paul gives thanks for those brethren for their faith, right? Those very Thessalonians! Paul is boasting concerning THEM--those very Thessalonians of his day to whom he is writing this personal letter! That is the context, right? He is thankful for THEIR patience and faith in all of THEIR persecutions and tribulations which THEY are enduring. Paul proclaims that God is righteous to "repay with tribulation" those who trouble THEM--those very Thessalonians of Paul's day to whom he is writing this personal letter. Right? Paul further states that God will give THEM rest--those Thessalonians to whom Paul is writing this personal letter--along with Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy (and by extension, all those saints of THAT day who were being persecuted). When was He to give rest to those very Thessalonians of Paul's day to whom Paul was writing this personal letter? When the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ!

This revealing from heaven, which was to involve those very Thessalonians of Paul's day and other saints of that day, is equated to His coming in THAT day. In THAT Day, that revealing of Christ from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire of vengeance was to occur. Christ was THEN glorified in THEM! It is still that same coming and revealing which was to occur in the lifetime of THOSE flesh-and-blood Thessalonians that is the subject of chapter 2! It was to involve THEIR gathering together with Him (see 1 Thes. 4). THAT Day--the revealing of Christ from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire of vengeance against those who troubled THOSE Thessalonians of Paul's day to whom he wrote this personal letter--is the very same day that would not occur until the man of sin was revealed. All these things are contemporaneous. Christ was to come back to those very Thessalonians of Paul's day to give THEM rest and to avenge THOSE who troubled them. The brightness of His coming is the same timing of that revealing from heaven to THOSE Thessalonians. His coming is that same Day of that revealing. They all go together.

None of these things personally deal with us! They are for us for application but they are not to us for fulfillment! What is the context? What is the audience relevance?

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[whirlwind]

Greetings, Whirlwind: It is unfortunate that you wrongly saw "us" in the words from the time you were a child. Before you go on to 2 Thessalonians 2, would you please establish the context by dealing with 2 Thessalonians 1? Who was to be given rest when the Lord was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels? In the context, Paul is giving thanks for those very Thessalonians of his day--those very ones to whom he is writing this personal letter. We must begin with this--"To the CHURCH OF THE THESSALONIANS in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Greetings to you my friend...

It is unfortunate that you don't see us in those verses. I don't have the problem you do in understanding that the letter was addressed to the Thessalonians and is inclusive of all believers. Matthew, these are divinely inspired words. He is the Word. His Word was not JUST to some ancient men in Thessalonica. They are to US, His children and pertain to us all the way from believers in Paul's time to believers at the time of the end of the age when...HE WILL COME AGAIN.

Paul gives thanks for those brethren for their faith, right? Those very Thessalonians! Paul is boasting concerning THEM--those very Thessalonians of his day to whom he is writing this personal letter! That is the context, right? He is thankful for THEIR patience and faith in all of THEIR persecutions and tribulations which THEY are enduring. Paul proclaims that God is righteous to "repay with tribulation" those who trouble THEM--those very Thessalonians of Paul's day to whom he is writing this personal letter. Right? Paul further states that God will give THEM rest--those Thessalonians to whom Paul is writing this personal letter--along with Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy (and by extension, all those saints of THAT day who were being persecuted). When was He to give rest to those very Thessalonians of Paul's day to whom Paul was writing this personal letter? When the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ!

This revealing from heaven, which was to involve those very Thessalonians of Paul's day and other saints of that day, is equated to His coming in THAT day. In THAT Day, that revealing of Christ from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire of vengeance was to occur. Christ was THEN glorified in THEM! It is still that same coming and revealing which was to occur in the lifetime of THOSE flesh-and-blood Thessalonians that is the subject of chapter 2! It was to involve THEIR gathering together with Him (see 1 Thes. 4). THAT Day--the revealing of Christ from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire of vengeance against those who troubled THOSE Thessalonians of Paul's day to whom he wrote this personal letter--is the very same day that would not occur until the man of sin was revealed. All these things are contemporaneous. Christ was to come back to those very Thessalonians of Paul's day to give THEM rest and to avenge THOSE who troubled them. The brightness of His coming is the same timing of that revealing from heaven to THOSE Thessalonians. His coming is that same Day of that revealing. They all go together.

None of these things personally deal with us! They are for us for application but they are not to us for fulfillment! What is the context? What is the audience relevance?

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

We are the audience....we are the readers of Paul's letter.....the words apply to us. :yes

 

[Ret]

The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

This is something I don't get. It describes how everything is pretty much normal:

...It puzzles me big time.

:help

Jeremiah 8:7

7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times;
and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming;
but my people know not the judgment of the LORD. KJV


Christ comes IN JUDGMENT.....before He comes in 'the clouds' per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

I believe Christ 'JUDGED' the world...in the days of Noah
SODOM was judged, in that day and time, as appointed by God!
Satan, the prince of this world was JUDGED, at the time of Christ.
Jerusalem, as in the time of Christ, was 'JUDGED' in '70AD...for those who see that!

WE...Yes, WE...are being JUDGED...even today as we write, wrestle and try to understand!
With each trial, each 'tribulation' we are judged. We are judged by our OWN words...how I
judge others...those same words will judge me IN THAT HOUR!

For us in this day and time of this earth's history....That HOUR of JUDGMENT...is NOW!

 

[Sparkey]

Although we must look through a mirror darkly at some things I can't help but wonder if we can tell the difference between Summer and Fall?

Is this scriptural in your opinions?

~Sparrowhawke

Sparrow doth quoteth himself?!?

What is Terce, Sext, and None? How long is an hour? 60 minutes? I think no. Does it delight our Father to show foolish me to be foolish? I think yes. He's proved it with me often enough . Could He have created a system to back up His claim that "no man knows the hour"? Is it possible that the length of the time that light is upon the earth determines the daylength and that we can only know how long a scriptural hour is in retrospect? ~~ Can He lengthen (or shorten) the day? ~~ Can we?

This is the case, is it not? If the day begins at 5:00 AM and the sunset comes at 7:00 PM the daylength is nicely set to 12 hours, yes? So the "third hour" would be 8:00 AM, surely. But consider, per Wiki - "At Rome's latitude hora tertia was in modern terms 09:02 to 09:46 solar time at the winter solstice, but at the summer solstice it was 06:58 to 08:13."

I might not have the wisdom to understand the unknown hour (I don't). I might not have the wisdom to understand the "Day" (I also don't). But ... and here's the point where I repeat. Can we know the season? Is that the lesson of the fig tree?

The question directly put is simply this: Can we know the difference between Summer and Fall?

~Sparrowhawke

(( Question: Will any here catch my folly? I've already seen it but leave it in place so that others can be like God and catch me in it. ))

 

[Matthew24:34]

Greetings, Whirlwind: It is unfortunate that you wrongly saw "us" in the words from the time you were a child. Before you go on to 2 Thessalonians 2, would you please establish the context by dealing with 2 Thessalonians 1? Who was to be given rest when the Lord was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels? In the context, Paul is giving thanks for those very Thessalonians of his day--those very ones to whom he is writing this personal letter. We must begin with this--"To the CHURCH OF THE THESSALONIANS in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Greetings to you my friend...

It is unfortunate that you don't see us in those verses. I don't have the problem you do in understanding that the letter was addressed to the Thessalonians and is inclusive of all believers. Matthew, these are divinely inspired words. He is the Word. His Word was not JUST to some ancient men in Thessalonica. They are to US, His children and pertain to us all the way from believers in Paul's time to believers at the time of the end of the age when...HE WILL COME AGAIN.

Paul gives thanks for those brethren for their faith, right? Those very Thessalonians! Paul is boasting concerning THEM--those very Thessalonians of his day to whom he is writing this personal letter! That is the context, right? He is thankful for THEIR patience and faith in all of THEIR persecutions and tribulations which THEY are enduring. Paul proclaims that God is righteous to "repay with tribulation" those who trouble THEM--those very Thessalonians of Paul's day to whom he is writing this personal letter. Right? Paul further states that God will give THEM rest--those Thessalonians to whom Paul is writing this personal letter--along with Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy (and by extension, all those saints of THAT day who were being persecuted). When was He to give rest to those very Thessalonians of Paul's day to whom Paul was writing this personal letter? When the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ!

This revealing from heaven, which was to involve those very Thessalonians of Paul's day and other saints of that day, is equated to His coming in THAT day. In THAT Day, that revealing of Christ from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire of vengeance was to occur. Christ was THEN glorified in THEM! It is still that same coming and revealing which was to occur in the lifetime of THOSE flesh-and-blood Thessalonians that is the subject of chapter 2! It was to involve THEIR gathering together with Him (see 1 Thes. 4). THAT Day--the revealing of Christ from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire of vengeance against those who troubled THOSE Thessalonians of Paul's day to whom he wrote this personal letter--is the very same day that would not occur until the man of sin was revealed. All these things are contemporaneous. Christ was to come back to those very Thessalonians of Paul's day to give THEM rest and to avenge THOSE who troubled them. The brightness of His coming is the same timing of that revealing from heaven to THOSE Thessalonians. His coming is that same Day of that revealing. They all go together.

None of these things personally deal with us! They are for us for application but they are not to us for fulfillment! What is the context? What is the audience relevance?

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

We are the audience....we are the readers of Paul's letter.....the words apply to us. :yes

Whirlwind, come on, my friend. Can the same, unique thing happen to two different generations? Those VERY THESSALONIANS were going to be avenged by THOSE very people of THEIR day when CHRIST was REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS. How many times is that supposed to happen?????

This is what ALWAYS frustrates me about futurists. They cannot see what is plainly right in front of their eyes. That which was to be fulfilled in the lifetime of THOSE THESSALONIANS, Whirlwind, cannot also be fulfilled in our time! Why don't you see that? If you write a letter to your friend in Wisconsin and tell HER that YOU are coming to see HER and help HER recover from the burning of HER house, and her great-great grandchildren later read your letter, are they to supposed assume that YOU are coming to THEM to help THEM with the burning of their great-great grandmother's long ago burned out house? That is ridiculous. Come on now! 2 Thessalonians is NOT NOT NOT addressed to US, Whirlwind. To whom was Paul writing and why? HE did not address us; we were in his mind when he wrote these words--those THESSALONIANS of HIS day were.

You are NOT being honest with the text. If Christ was going to come to THOSE Thessalonians and give THEM relief from THEIR troubles that they were enduring from the hands of THOSE first-century persecutors, how can He again come to us in the same way? How many times is He to come with His mighty angels in flaming fire? Are you saying He came with His mighty angels in flaming fire to those first-century Thessalonians (as the text clearly says) and He's coming again in our day with His mighty angels in flaming fire?

What is the context, Whirlwind? Put everything else aside. What does it say? We are the subsequent readers of Paul's letter--far removed from the context of Paul's words! He was not writing directly to us about things that were to happen to us, Whirlwind. What does it say?

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[Sparkey]

We are the audience....we are the readers of Paul's letter.....the words apply to us. :yes

[*Edited by Sparrow for brevity's sake]

Whirlwind, come on, my friend. Can the same, unique thing happen to two different generations? Those VERY THESSALONIANS were going to be avenged by THOSE very people of THEIR day when CHRIST was REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS. How many times is that supposed to happen?????

This is what ALWAYS frustrates me about futurists.
They cannot see what is plainly right in front of their eyes. That which was to be fulfilled in the lifetime of THOSE THESSALONIANS, Whirlwind, cannot also be fulfilled in our time! Why don't you see that?

If you write a letter to your friend in Wisconsin and tell HER that YOU are coming to see HER and help HER recover from the burning of HER house, and her great-great grandchildren later read your letter, are they to supposed assume that YOU are coming to THEM to help THEM with the burning of their great-great grandmother's long ago burned out house? That is ridiculous. Come on now! 2 Thessalonians is NOT NOT NOT addressed to US, Whirlwind. To whom was Paul writing and why? HE did not address us; we were in his mind when he wrote these words--those THESSALONIANS of HIS day were.

You are NOT being honest with the text.
.....

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

Greetings Matthew24:34

May I point out that you, sir (ma'am?), are not being honest either? Clearly whirlwind is NOT God. Your reverse anthropomorphism is false, hence your conclusion becomes suspect. I personally know in my heart that whirlwind is honest through and through. I also suspect that you believe in your good heart that she is deceived.

May I ask again if we are able (according to Scripture) to know the season? I would really like an answer from one who confesses preterism (did I spell that correctly? I've never encountered this before).

 

[Sparkey]

He spake also this parable; "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down." (Luk 13:6-9)

~Sparrow

 

[Matthew24:34]

We are the audience....we are the readers of Paul's letter.....the words apply to us. :yes

[*Edited by Sparrow for brevity's sake]

Whirlwind, come on, my friend. Can the same, unique thing happen to two different generations? Those VERY THESSALONIANS were going to be avenged by THOSE very people of THEIR day when CHRIST was REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS. How many times is that supposed to happen?????

This is what ALWAYS frustrates me about futurists.
They cannot see what is plainly right in front of their eyes. That which was to be fulfilled in the lifetime of THOSE THESSALONIANS, Whirlwind, cannot also be fulfilled in our time! Why don't you see that?

If you write a letter to your friend in Wisconsin and tell HER that YOU are coming to see HER and help HER recover from the burning of HER house, and her great-great grandchildren later read your letter, are they to supposed assume that YOU are coming to THEM to help THEM with the burning of their great-great grandmother's long ago burned out house? That is ridiculous. Come on now! 2 Thessalonians is NOT NOT NOT addressed to US, Whirlwind. To whom was Paul writing and why? HE did not address us; we were in his mind when he wrote these words--those THESSALONIANS of HIS day were.

You are NOT being honest with the text.
.....

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

Greetings Matthew24:34

May I point out that you, sir (ma'am?), are not being honest either? Clearly whirlwind is NOT God. Your reverse anthropomorphism is false, hence your conclusion becomes suspect. I personally know in my heart that whirlwind is honest through and through. I also suspect that you believe in your good heart that she is deceived.

May I ask again if we are able (according to Scripture) to know the season? I would really like an answer from one who confesses preterism (did I spell that correctly? I've never encountered this before).

When you make an accusation, Sparrow, would you please spell it out plainly. I'm not always the sharpest pencil in the box! What do you mean by reverse anthropomorphism and how does it make my conclusion false. I never accused Whirlwind of being a dishonest person, but she is not handling the plain teaching in 2 Thessalonians honestly! She is fudging around what the text plainly says--that is not honest, whether intentional or unintentional.

What about the points I made about 2 Thessalonians? Without even dealing with them (as futurists characteristically do) you say that I am dishonest? Are my arguments sound? If not, why not? What was Paul clearly saying and to whom was he clearly saying it in 2 Thessalonians 1? What's your point about knowing the season? I know the generation and so did Jesus. He couldn't have stated it more plainly. But there are many who do not like what He clearly said, so they seek to make His words mean something they NOWHERE else mean. Check out ALL the uses of "this generation." What did Jesus ALWAYS mean by that expression? His contemporaries!

Thanks!

Matthew24:34

 

[Sparkey]

Did I lie against the truth?
You have stated, "You are NOT being honest (with the text).
I have stated, "You are NOT being honest (with your analogy).

My question to you is simply this, "Can we know the season?" What season did our Christ mention in Matthew 24?

Cordially,
~Sparrow

 

[whirlwind]

Whirlwind, come on, my friend. Can the same, unique thing happen to two different generations? Those VERY THESSALONIANS were going to be avenged by THOSE very people of THEIR day when CHRIST was REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS. How many times is that supposed to happen?????

This is what ALWAYS frustrates me about futurists. They cannot see what is plainly right in front of their eyes. That which was to be fulfilled in the lifetime of THOSE THESSALONIANS, Whirlwind, cannot also be fulfilled in our time! Why don't you see that? If you write a letter to your friend in Wisconsin and tell HER that YOU are coming to see HER and help HER recover from the burning of HER house, and her great-great grandchildren later read your letter, are they to supposed assume that YOU are coming to THEM to help THEM with the burning of their great-great grandmother's long ago burned out house? That is ridiculous. Come on now! 2 Thessalonians is NOT NOT NOT addressed to US, Whirlwind. To whom was Paul writing and why? HE did not address us; we were in his mind when he wrote these words--those THESSALONIANS of HIS day were.

You are NOT being honest with the text. If Christ was going to come to THOSE Thessalonians and give THEM relief from THEIR troubles that they were enduring from the hands of THOSE first-century persecutors, how can He again come to us in the same way? How many times is He to come with His mighty angels in flaming fire? Are you saying He came with His mighty angels in flaming fire to those first-century Thessalonians (as the text clearly says) and He's coming again in our day with His mighty angels in flaming fire?

What is the context, Whirlwind? Put everything else aside. What does it say? We are the subsequent readers of Paul's letter--far removed from the context of Paul's words! He was not writing directly to us about things that were to happen to us, Whirlwind. What does it say?

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

Let's just take the very last verses of the first letter....

1 Thessalonians 5:24-28 Faithful is He That calleth you, Who also will do it. Brethren, pray for us. Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss. I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Have you been called? I have. Do you pray for your brothers and sisters? I do. Do you consider yourself part of the body of Christ, the holy brethren? I do. Do I or have I ever lived in Thessalonica? No I haven't and it isn't at all necessary. The letter is written to us Matthew, those that love Him. It was Divinely inspired and was not simply written by some crazy tent making Jewish guy to a few folks in a few places in Asia as a one time event. :yes

Sincerely, Whirlwind

 

[Matthew24:34]

Did I lie against the truth?
You have stated, "You are NOT being honest (with the text).
I have stated, "You are NOT being honest (with your analogy).

My question to you is simply this, "Can we know the season?" What season did our Christ mention in Matthew 24?

Cordially,
~Sparrow

What generation did He mention?

Sincerely, Matthew24:34