Day of the unknown hour?

[Sparkey]

And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.

Are you saying that you will you answer my question if I respond to yours? I will tell you what I believe but not if it is a snare. What bird will set his foot into a snare laid within its sight?

 

[Matthew24:34]

Whirlwind, come on, my friend. Can the same, unique thing happen to two different generations? Those VERY THESSALONIANS were going to be avenged by THOSE very people of THEIR day when CHRIST was REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS. How many times is that supposed to happen?????

This is what ALWAYS frustrates me about futurists. They cannot see what is plainly right in front of their eyes. That which was to be fulfilled in the lifetime of THOSE THESSALONIANS, Whirlwind, cannot also be fulfilled in our time! Why don't you see that? If you write a letter to your friend in Wisconsin and tell HER that YOU are coming to see HER and help HER recover from the burning of HER house, and her great-great grandchildren later read your letter, are they to supposed assume that YOU are coming to THEM to help THEM with the burning of their great-great grandmother's long ago burned out house? That is ridiculous. Come on now! 2 Thessalonians is NOT NOT NOT addressed to US, Whirlwind. To whom was Paul writing and why? HE did not address us; we were in his mind when he wrote these words--those THESSALONIANS of HIS day were.

You are NOT being honest with the text. If Christ was going to come to THOSE Thessalonians and give THEM relief from THEIR troubles that they were enduring from the hands of THOSE first-century persecutors, how can He again come to us in the same way? How many times is He to come with His mighty angels in flaming fire? Are you saying He came with His mighty angels in flaming fire to those first-century Thessalonians (as the text clearly says) and He's coming again in our day with His mighty angels in flaming fire?

What is the context, Whirlwind? Put everything else aside. What does it say? We are the subsequent readers of Paul's letter--far removed from the context of Paul's words! He was not writing directly to us about things that were to happen to us, Whirlwind. What does it say?

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

Let's just take the very last verses of the first letter....

1 Thessalonians 5:24-28 Faithful is He That calleth you, Who also will do it. Brethren, pray for us. Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss. I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Have you been called? I have. Do you pray for your brothers and sisters? I do. Do you consider yourself part of the body of Christ, the holy brethren? I do. Do I or have I ever lived in Thessalonica? No I haven't and it isn't at all necessary. The letter is written to us Matthew, those that love Him. It was Divinely inspired and was not simply written by some crazy tent making Jewish guy to a few folks in a few places in Asia as a one time event. :yes

Sincerely, Whirlwind

My dear Whirlwind: Paul was instructing them to have the letter read to all the brethren of THAT day. How could Paul charge those Thessalonians with a task to have his epistle read to the holy brethren of any day except their own!!!!!!! Just because we now read it does not mean that is what Paul intended when he said those words. The letter is NOT written to us, Whirlwind. Did you not read the salutation? If I write a letter and address it to the First Baptist Church of Timbuktu, to whom am I writing? If I tell the people of the First Baptist Church of Timbuktu to have the letter read to the brethren, would I possibly mean that they are to make sure every subsequent generation of brethren reads it? Your reasoning is nonsensical, Whirlwind.

Do you want to know what the Scriptures say, my friend? I am tired of going around and around with you over simple direct address and simple words. "Some crazy tent making Jewish guy?" What kind of an insult is that to cast upon an apostle of our Lord? Whirlwind, you are so blinded by your insistence that everything be about us that you cannot see straight. There is no double meaning to Paul's plain words in 2 Thessalonians 1. I notice that you didn't even bother to exegete it as I requested. Do you know how to exegete? Look at every word and every sentence and ascertain what the AUTHOR intended. To whom is he primarily writing? Why is he writing what he is writing? When did he write what he wrote? What did his words mean to those to whom he wrote (i.e. those very first-century Thessalonians)? If you refuse to do proper interpretation, how can you possible make proper application? Your fixation on making all of Scripture directed at us completely eliminates any audience relevance to the day in which the letter was written.

What did Paul's words mean to those Thessalonians, Whirlwind? Paul's statements about specific things cannot be fulfilled in two different time periods. There was ONE revealing of Christ with His mighty angels. Paul clearly said that would happen in the lifetime of THOSE very Thessalonians. Why do you continue to deny that? Furthermore, is it not enough for you that there are principles for us in these letters even though they are not directed at us specifically?

The letters to the Thessalonians WERE written by a first-century tentmaker (Paul)--first of all to those very Thessalonians who were then supposed to have it read by the brethren of THEIR day. It is what it is, Whirlwind. Why are futurists so into themselves that they can't see when something is not directed at them? Every generation of brethren has learned from those epistles written by Paul and the other inspired writers. We continue to learn from them today (if we are willing) even though they were not written directly TO us and were not sent to US!

Whirlwind, you will never understand the Scriptures if you persist in this ridiculous concept that everything is written to us! I have heard this from other futurists, but you are by far the most persistent and stubborn about it! What was the meaning of 2 Thessalonians 1 to those Thessalonians to whom Paul wrote His letter?

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[Sparkey]

lol - I see what you did not that I blame you for it.

You have said, "Paul and the other inspired writers". Inspired by whom, please?
I am beginning to think (by reading your analogies) that you wish to suggest that all epistles (letters) are the mere writings of men. Why else would one speak of a letter written to whirlwind's grandmother (as if she were the Holy Spirit) and now another fictitious letter written to the First Baptist Church of Timbuktu? Can we really compare our scribblings to the Word and draw any meaningful conclusion? Oh, (if you can hear it from me) the word "exegete" is a noun, not a verb. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exegete

The question that I've asked about "the season" is both relevant and direct. Why ignore it?

~Sparrowhawke

 

[Matthew24:34]

And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.

Are you saying that you will you answer my question if I respond to yours? I will tell you what I believe but not if it is a snare. What bird will set his foot into a snare laid within its sight?

I will answer your question when you ask it in the context of a particular verse? To what verse or verses in Matthew 24 are you referring? Verse 32? Verse 45? I find your question very vague! And yes, I would like an answer concerning "this generation" as it is used in context and as it is used BY JESUS in many other passages in the NT. Thanks!

Matthew24:34

 

[Sparkey]

No need for you to answer me directly. We know by the writings of the Holy Spirit in the Good News messages that Jesus spoke of the Summer. Why are you so reluctant to admit this? It could be because you already have an understanding of the Feastdays and Holidays of the Jewish calendar year.

Knowing what was said to "that generation" and knowing to whom he spoke is important. They knew the calendar and understood his meaning.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Can we know the same message that Jesus spoke to "that generation"?

It seems that some can but others refuse.

~Sparrowhawke

 

[Sparkey]

Having understood the parable of the Fig tree may we now turn to the folly I spoke of earlier?

Is it possible that the length of the time that light is upon the earth determines the daylength and that we can only know how long a scriptural hour is in retrospect? ~~ Can He lengthen (or shorten) the day? ~~ Can we?

This is the case, is it not? If the day begins at 5:00 AM and the sunset comes at 7:00 PM the daylength is nicely set to 12 hours, yes? So the "third hour" would be 8:00 AM, surely. But consider, per Wiki - "At Rome's latitude hora tertia was in modern terms 09:02 to 09:46 solar time at the winter solstice, but at the summer solstice it was 06:58 to 08:13."

The question directly put is simply this: Can we know the difference between Summer and Fall?

~Sparrowhawke

(( Question: Will any here catch my folly? I've already seen it but leave it in place so that others can be like God and catch me in it. ))

Do you find upon careful examination that there are 14 hours between 5:00 AM and 7:00 PM and NOT twelve --as I previously stated, "nicely set to 12 hours" ? When we turn our view to "that generation" we must put ourselves in their mindset else we may miss the meaning(s).

While we contemplate the meaning of a "Day" to "that generation" let's also look at the specific lesson that Jesus was teaching to his disciples - by continuing the discussion on the Fig Tree:

The Curse of the Untimely Fig Tree

• Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, "Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever". And presently the fig tree withered away.
  Mat 21:20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, "How soon is the fig tree withered away!"
  Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done."
  Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. [/*:m:xtwl0x8b]
• Mar 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
  Mar 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
  Mar 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, "No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever." And his disciples heard it.[/*:m:xtwl0x8b]
• Mar 11:20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
  Mar 11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, "Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away."
  Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, "Have faith in God.
  Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
  Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
  Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
  Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."[/*:m:xtwl0x8b]

Background Detail of the Unrepentant Fig Tree (the explanation):
Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, "Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, 'Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?'
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, 'Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
_______________________________________

Here we can see that not only was Jesus referencing the Jewish Calendar year -- but also directly referencing his second miracle. It was right after Jesus had changed the ritual hand-washing water of the Pharisees into wine at the wedding feast of Canaan that the fig tree was cursed. Certainly Peter (and others) had time to ponder all these things before he took up the 'mantle' of his apostleship.

This then is the light needed to address the question of "what generation". It may have been specifically given to a few men: the Apostles of the Lamb. They are the ones that witnessed the Passover, the Feast of the Unleavened Bread, the Feast of First Fruits and The feast of Pentecost or Shavuot which has many names in the Bible (the Feast of Weeks, the Feast of Harvest, and the Latter Firstfruits). They are the ones that witnessed the 2nd Miracle, the cursing of the fig tree.

Gentle reminder, "Can we know the difference between Summer and Fall?"
I believe that knowledge is critical to the understanding of whirlwind's comments about the former and later rains. ;) And although the gospels do not specifically mention Nathanael there is some suggestion that he would have a unique understanding also:


Joh 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
Joh 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, "Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!"
Joh 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, "Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee."
Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Joh 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these."


~Sparrow

Nathanael (whose name means "to know; to perceive") exclaimed, "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel!

 

[sheshisown]

:waving Hello!

There is something I recently read from my Reformation studies regarding thew curse of the untimely fig tree:

The Wycliffe Bible Commentary points out, "It was normal for the fig tree in the vicinity of Jerusalem to begin to put forth new leaves in the latter part of March or early April, the time of the Passover. This tree was apparently fully leaved out, in which case it should have had ripened figs on it, although the time of ripe figs was in June."

Hope this helps!

~Sparrow

Querie:

Here we can see that not only was Jesus referencing the Jewish Calendar year -- but also directly referencing his second miracle. It was right after Jesus had changed the ritual hand-washing water of the Pharisees into wine at the wedding feast of Canaan that the fig tree was cursed.

Can you explain this in closer detail for me please? And since this is really (Off Topic) would you PM me your answer if that's okay? Thanks brother~

sheshisown~

 

[whirlwind]

My dear Whirlwind: Paul was instructing them to have the letter read to all the brethren of THAT day. How could Paul charge those Thessalonians with a task to have his epistle read to the holy brethren of any day except their own!!!!!!! Just because we now read it does not mean that is what Paul intended when he said those words. The letter is NOT written to us, Whirlwind. Did you not read the salutation? If I write a letter and address it to the First Baptist Church of Timbuktu, to whom am I writing? If I tell the people of the First Baptist Church of Timbuktu to have the letter read to the brethren, would I possibly mean that they are to make sure every subsequent generation of brethren reads it? Your reasoning is nonsensical, Whirlwind.

It wasn't Paul instructing them to have the letter read TO ALL the brethren...."I charge you by the LORD that this epistle be read unto ALL THE HOLY BRETHREN. We are the holy brethren Michael. The letter is for us to read, as instructed by our Father.

Do you want to know what the Scriptures say, my friend? I am tired of going around and around with you over simple direct address and simple words. "Some crazy tent making Jewish guy?" What kind of an insult is that to cast upon an apostle of our Lord?

That is my point Michael...I'm not saying that. I'm saying Paul was divinely inspired to write for all of us for all time. It is you that appear to be insulting Paul as just some writer of letters when he was so much more than that. He is an apostle of our Lord and as such it is an error to see the words he penned as just written to a few in that one moment in time.

Whirlwind, you are so blinded by your insistence that everything be about us that you cannot see straight. There is no double meaning to Paul's plain words in 2 Thessalonians 1. I notice that you didn't even bother to exegete it as I requested. Do you know how to exegete? Look at every word and every sentence and ascertain what the AUTHOR intended. To whom is he primarily writing? Why is he writing what he is writing? When did he write what he wrote? What did his words mean to those to whom he wrote (i.e. those very first-century Thessalonians)? If you refuse to do proper interpretation, how can you possible make proper application? Your fixation on making all of Scripture directed at us completely eliminates any audience relevance to the day in which the letter was written.

Michael....let the Holy Spirit open understanding to you. Looking at just the "letter of the Word" doesn't allow that for "the spirit giveth life." [11 Corinthians 3:6]

What did Paul's words mean to those Thessalonians, Whirlwind? Paul's statements about specific things cannot be fulfilled in two different time periods. There was ONE revealing of Christ with His mighty angels. Paul clearly said that would happen in the lifetime of THOSE very Thessalonians. Why do you continue to deny that? Furthermore, is it not enough for you that there are principles for us in these letters even though they are not directed at us specifically?

There are events from the very beginning that were played out over and over. So, I must disagree with you for....specific things can be fulfilled in two, or three, or four different time periods.

The letters to the Thessalonians WERE written by a first-century tentmaker (Paul)--first of all to those very Thessalonians who were then supposed to have it read by the brethren of THEIR day. It is what it is, Whirlwind. Why are futurists so into themselves that they can't see when something is not directed at them? Every generation of brethren has learned from those epistles written by Paul and the other inspired writers. We continue to learn from them today (if we are willing) even though they were not written directly TO us and were not sent to US!

Whirlwind, you will never understand the Scriptures if you persist in this ridiculous concept that everything is written to us! I have heard this from other futurists, but you are by far the most persistent and stubborn about it! What was the meaning of 2 Thessalonians 1 to those Thessalonians to whom Paul wrote His letter?

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

And I fear you will "never understand the Scriptures," or the various levels of those Words, until you are willing to see that they are much more than a simple letter of instructions to some men long ago. The Word lives Michael. It isn't constrained by time or ages and that is part of it's wonder and beauty.

But, if you are happy and our Father speaks to you through His Word as you understand it then that is how it shall be. I too am happy and He also speaks to me through His Word as I understand it. Perhaps that is how it should be or will be? He loves us both as we love Him and I trust Him to guide us through this wonderful and fascinating path to Him.

 

[Matthew24:34]

My dear Whirlwind: Paul was instructing them to have the letter read to all the brethren of THAT day. How could Paul charge those Thessalonians with a task to have his epistle read to the holy brethren of any day except their own!!!!!!! Just because we now read it does not mean that is what Paul intended when he said those words. The letter is NOT written to us, Whirlwind. Did you not read the salutation? If I write a letter and address it to the First Baptist Church of Timbuktu, to whom am I writing? If I tell the people of the First Baptist Church of Timbuktu to have the letter read to the brethren, would I possibly mean that they are to make sure every subsequent generation of brethren reads it? Your reasoning is nonsensical, Whirlwind.

It wasn't Paul instructing them to have the letter read TO ALL the brethren...."I charge you by the LORD that this epistle be read unto ALL THE HOLY BRETHREN. We are the holy brethren Michael. The letter is for us to read, as instructed by our Father.

Do you want to know what the Scriptures say, my friend? I am tired of going around and around with you over simple direct address and simple words. "Some crazy tent making Jewish guy?" What kind of an insult is that to cast upon an apostle of our Lord?

That is my point Michael...I'm not saying that. I'm saying Paul was divinely inspired to write for all of us for all time. It is you that appear to be insulting Paul as just some writer of letters when he was so much more than that. He is an apostle of our Lord and as such it is an error to see the words he penned as just written to a few in that one moment in time.


[quote:7faj6z0v] Whirlwind, you are so blinded by your insistence that everything be about us that you cannot see straight. There is no double meaning to Paul's plain words in 2 Thessalonians 1. I notice that you didn't even bother to exegete it as I requested. Do you know how to exegete? Look at every word and every sentence and ascertain what the AUTHOR intended. To whom is he primarily writing? Why is he writing what he is writing? When did he write what he wrote? What did his words mean to those to whom he wrote (i.e. those very first-century Thessalonians)? If you refuse to do proper interpretation, how can you possible make proper application? Your fixation on making all of Scripture directed at us completely eliminates any audience relevance to the day in which the letter was written.

Michael....let the Holy Spirit open understanding to you. Looking at just the "letter of the Word" doesn't allow that for "the spirit giveth life." [11 Corinthians 3:6]

What did Paul's words mean to those Thessalonians, Whirlwind? Paul's statements about specific things cannot be fulfilled in two different time periods. There was ONE revealing of Christ with His mighty angels. Paul clearly said that would happen in the lifetime of THOSE very Thessalonians. Why do you continue to deny that? Furthermore, is it not enough for you that there are principles for us in these letters even though they are not directed at us specifically?

There are events from the very beginning that were played out over and over. So, I must disagree with you for....specific things can be fulfilled in two, or three, or four different time periods.

The letters to the Thessalonians WERE written by a first-century tentmaker (Paul)--first of all to those very Thessalonians who were then supposed to have it read by the brethren of THEIR day. It is what it is, Whirlwind. Why are futurists so into themselves that they can't see when something is not directed at them? Every generation of brethren has learned from those epistles written by Paul and the other inspired writers. We continue to learn from them today (if we are willing) even though they were not written directly TO us and were not sent to US!

Whirlwind, you will never understand the Scriptures if you persist in this ridiculous concept that everything is written to us! I have heard this from other futurists, but you are by far the most persistent and stubborn about it! What was the meaning of 2 Thessalonians 1 to those Thessalonians to whom Paul wrote His letter?

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

And I fear you will "never understand the Scriptures," or the various levels of those Words, until you are willing to see that they are much more than a simple letter of instructions to some men long ago. The Word lives Michael. It isn't constrained by time or ages and that is part of it's wonder and beauty.

But, if you are happy and our Father speaks to you through His Word as you understand it then that is how it shall be. I too am happy and He also speaks to me through His Word as I understand it. Perhaps that is how it should be or will be? He loves us both as we love Him and I trust Him to guide us through this wonderful and fascinating path to Him.[/quote:7faj6z0v]

Whirlwind:

I am fully aware that Paul was charged by the Lord. Here is the point--Paul was instructing those very Thessalonians to make sure the epistle was read to all the brethren. What brethren? The brethren of their day. They could only comply with Paul's instructions in their lifetime and in their historical setting, Whirlwind. How in the world could THEY personally make sure that the epistle was read to all brethren of OUR day? That is not what the Lord instructed him. "Brethren" refers to those contemporaneous to those first-century Thessalonians!

Let's exegete 2 Thessalonians 1. You keep ignoring my questions concerning that.

Verse 1 only--Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Who wrote and sent the letter?
To whom is the letter clearly addressed?
Who is being addressed when Paul says "grace to you peace?"

Matthew24:34

 

[whirlwind]

Whirlwind:

I am fully aware that Paul was charged by the Lord. Here is the point--Paul was instructing those very Thessalonians to make sure the epistle was read to all the brethren. What brethren? The brethren of their day. They could only comply with Paul's instructions in their lifetime and in their historical setting, Whirlwind. How in the world could THEY personally make sure that the epistle was read to all brethren of OUR day? That is not what the Lord instructed him. "Brethren" refers to those contemporaneous to those first-century Thessalonians!

May I ask....as you agree "that Paul was charged by the Lord," do you continue to believe that the Lord "charged" Paul to only write that letter to those men of that time?

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

We are His Jerusalem. We are Israel. We are the temple. And, we, His family are those that "killest the prophets." How? By killing His Word for the prophets are who He used to bring that Holy Word to us. All of us. We kill it by not understanding that the Word lives and is written for all of us for all time. It is not a dead letter written in ancient times....it lives! The prophets live!


To answer your question, "How in the world could THEY personally make sure that the epistle was read to all brethren of OUR day?" The "they" is us. We are the brethren that take it forward or we are the brethren that it is given to....either way, we as brethren, are the one body in Christ just as they of Paul's time, are of that One body.

Let's exegete 2 Thessalonians 1. You keep ignoring my questions concerning that.

Verse 1 only--Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Who wrote and sent the letter?
To whom is the letter clearly addressed?
Who is being addressed when Paul says "grace to you peace?"

I'll answer your question with a question.....

Matthew 26:26-29 And as they were eating, Jesus took the bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take eat; this is My body." And He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink ye all of it; For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

Do you see that as being addressed or directed to only the twelve with Him?

 

[Sinthesis]

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

We are His Jerusalem. We are Israel. We are the temple. And, we, His family are those that "killest the prophets." How? By killing His Word for the prophets are who He used to bring that Holy Word to us. All of us. We kill it by not understanding that the Word lives and is written for all of us for all time. It is not a dead letter written in ancient times....it lives! The prophets live!

Really? So then you believe Jesus next says 'your house is left unto you desolate'? How sad it must be for you personally to be of a desolate house! :verysad
Why won't you personally let Jesus gather you unto himself?

 

[Paidion]

Actually, it's Lightning, not the light of the sun:
24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be( NKJ)

Oh! So you believe "αÃĀÃÂαÀη" means "lightning" rather than "lighting"! Then, I guess you would translate Luke 11:36 something like this:

If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, it will be wholly bright, as when a lamp with its lightning gives you light.

"αÃĀÃÂαÀη" is derived from "αÃĀÃÂαÀÄÉ", a verb which means "shine", according to the Greek online lexicon.

However, it is true that "αÃĀÃÂαÀη", in its meaning of "lighting" can also refer to "lightning".

However, I believe that in this passage it's "lighting". We all know the light from the sun shines from the east (when it rises) to the west (when it sets). But lightning doesn't shine or flash regularily from the east to the west. It flashes in many directions which are unpredictable. If Matthew had meant "lightning", why would he specify east to west?

 

[whirlwind]

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

We are His Jerusalem. We are Israel. We are the temple. And, we, His family are those that "killest the prophets." How? By killing His Word for the prophets are who He used to bring that Holy Word to us. All of us. We kill it by not understanding that the Word lives and is written for all of us for all time. It is not a dead letter written in ancient times....it lives! The prophets live!

Really? So then you believe Jesus next says 'your house is left unto you desolate'? How sad it must be for you personally to be of a desolate house! :verysad
Why won't you personally let Jesus gather you unto himself?

I am gathered Sinthesis. All those that love Him are Jerusalem. Some of Jerusalem become His holy city and others, the misled, are those that killest or stonest the prophets. All love Him but some will see Him before others....see Him in the Scriptures. He allows each of us to see Him at different times......"to give them meat in due season." [Mathew 24:45]

But thank you for being concerned.

 

[Sinthesis]

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

We are His Jerusalem. We are Israel. We are the temple. And, we, His family are those that "killest the prophets." How? By killing His Word for the prophets are who He used to bring that Holy Word to us. All of us. We kill it by not understanding that the Word lives and is written for all of us for all time. It is not a dead letter written in ancient times....it lives! The prophets live!

Really? So then you believe Jesus next says 'your house is left unto you desolate'? How sad it must be for you personally to be of a desolate house! :verysad
Why won't you personally let Jesus gather you unto himself?

I am gathered Sinthesis. All those that love Him are Jerusalem. Some of Jerusalem become His holy city and others, the misled, are those that killest or stonest the prophets. All love Him but some will see Him before others....see Him in the Scriptures. He allows each of us to see Him at different times......"to give them meat in due season." [Mathew 24:45]

But thank you for being concerned.

Congratulations, then you are not the 'Jerusalem' of Luke 13:34. This is a good thing! You don't want to be the 'Jerusalem' of Luke 13:34, or what part of 'and ye would not!' do you not understand?

 

[Matthew24:34]

Actually, it's Lightning, not the light of the sun:
24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be( NKJ)

Oh! So you believe "αÃĀÃÂαÀη" means "lightning" rather than "lighting"! Then, I guess you would translate Luke 11:36 something like this:

If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, it will be wholly bright, as when a lamp with its lightning gives you light.

"αÃĀÃÂαÀη" is derived from "αÃĀÃÂαÀÄÉ", a verb which means "shine", according to the Greek online lexicon.

However, it is true that "αÃĀÃÂαÀη", in its meaning of "lighting" can also refer to "lightning".

However, I believe that in this passage it's "lighting". We all know the light from the sun shines from the east (when it rises) to the west (when it sets). But lightning doesn't shine or flash regularily from the east to the west. It flashes in many directions which are unpredictable. If Matthew had meant "lightning", why would he specify east to west?

Greetings, Paidion: Whatever αÃĀÃÂαÀÄÉ means, it still falls within the confines of "this generation." I would encourage you, if you have not already done so, to look up all the many times Jesus used that expression. He always meant His contemporaries. Since in your assessment of αÃĀÃÂαÀÄÉ you seem to be interested in consistency, perhaps you would like to explain how an expression suddenly and without precedent changes meaning. How does "this generation" become "that generation?" It is incumbent upon the interpreter who gives a word an unusual and uncharacteristic meaning to give ample justification for doing so. This is especially true, I think, when we are dealing with the very words of our Lord!

So much is made about no one, even Jesus Himself, knowing the day and the hour of His return. But that does not justify claiming that Jesus' lack of that knowledge while He walked this earth forces His coming far, far into the future to sometime even beyond our present day. Jesus did not know the day or the hour, but He knew the generation and He clearly stated it. "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." That very much includes the lighting or lightning of verse 27!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[whirlwind]

Congratulations, then you are not the 'Jerusalem' of Luke 13:34. This is a good thing! You don't want to be the 'Jerusalem' of Luke 13:34, or what part of 'and ye would not!' do you not understand?

Jerusalem is Jerususalem Sinthesis. Say you have five children and two of those children killed and stoned whatever you taught them. They are still...children of Sinthesis. The other three children absorbed your teachings and lived them. They too are your children. At some point those "two," who you continue to feed at your table, will finally absorb the meal and SEE what you, as their father, have been teaching. That is the point, when "their time come," when they shall say....'Blesssed is He That cometh in the name of the LORD.'"

So, I believe that I understand the "ye would not," as well as understand who Jerusalem is.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[Sinthesis]

Congratulations, then you are not the 'Jerusalem' of Luke 13:34. This is a good thing! You don't want to be the 'Jerusalem' of Luke 13:34, or what part of 'and ye would not!' do you not understand?

Jerusalem is Jerususalem Sinthesis. Say you have five children and two of those children killed and stoned whatever you taught them. They are still...children of Sinthesis. The other three children absorbed your teachings and lived them. They too are your children. At some point those "two," who you continue to feed at your table, will finally absorb the meal and SEE what you, as their father, have been teaching. That is the point, when "their time come," when they shall say....'Blesssed is He That cometh in the name of the LORD.'"

Disregarding the typo ;) , your example makes my point even though it does not directly correspond with the parable of Luke 13:34. Clearly you don't really believe that 'Jerusalem is Jerusalem', because you are dividing Jerusalem into five 'children'. The only Jerusalem that existed when Jesus gave us this parable was rebellious and 'would not' come under Jesus' teaching. This rebellious Jerusalem was destroyed at the time of the end, circa 70AD, physically-literally but more importantly spiritually-figuratively. However, never fear, God gave us a New Jerusalem which is not in rebellion, and we belong to this city.

So, I believe that I understand the "ye would not," as well as understand who Jerusalem is.

You'll get no argument from me there.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Again, this example makes my point. You have just correctly differentiated 'Jerusalem' and the 'New Jerusalem'.

 

[Sparkey]

Are gnats being strained here? I'm lost in the conversation. What is it about?

The unknown hour? Did nobody want to pick up my observation about the the length of the Jewish day?

~Sparrowhawke

The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

This is something I don't get. It describes how everything is pretty much normal:

[quote:18tozloh]As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

then without them knowing it was coming, the flood swept them away. It says it will be the same for the coming of the Son of Man. How will we not know when this is supposely "after" the Beast's tyranny? How will we be living a normal life right before Son of Man arrives? This is one of the reasons that make me question another beast rising in the future. It puzzles me big time.

:help[/quote:18tozloh]

 

[Matthew24:34]

Having understood the parable of the Fig tree may we now turn to the folly I spoke of earlier?

Is it possible that the length of the time that light is upon the earth determines the daylength and that we can only know how long a scriptural hour is in retrospect? ~~ Can He lengthen (or shorten) the day? ~~ Can we?

This is the case, is it not? If the day begins at 5:00 AM and the sunset comes at 7:00 PM the daylength is nicely set to 12 hours, yes? So the "third hour" would be 8:00 AM, surely. But consider, per Wiki - "At Rome's latitude hora tertia was in modern terms 09:02 to 09:46 solar time at the winter solstice, but at the summer solstice it was 06:58 to 08:13."

The question directly put is simply this: Can we know the difference between Summer and Fall?

~Sparrowhawke

(( Question: Will any here catch my folly? I've already seen it but leave it in place so that others can be like God and catch me in it. ))

Do you find upon careful examination that there are 14 hours between 5:00 AM and 7:00 PM and NOT twelve --as I previously stated, "nicely set to 12 hours" ? When we turn our view to "that generation" we must put ourselves in their mindset else we may miss the meaning(s).

While we contemplate the meaning of a "Day" to "that generation" let's also look at the specific lesson that Jesus was teaching to his disciples - by continuing the discussion on the Fig Tree:

The Curse of the Untimely Fig Tree

• Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, "Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever". And presently the fig tree withered away.
  Mat 21:20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, "How soon is the fig tree withered away!"
  Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done."
  Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. [/*:m:1zw1dv4o]
• Mar 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
  Mar 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
  Mar 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, "No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever." And his disciples heard it.[/*:m:1zw1dv4o]
• Mar 11:20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
  Mar 11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, "Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away."
  Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, "Have faith in God.
  Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
  Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
  Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
  Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."[/*:m:1zw1dv4o]

Background Detail of the Unrepentant Fig Tree (the explanation):
Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, "Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, 'Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?'
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, 'Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
_______________________________________

Here we can see that not only was Jesus referencing the Jewish Calendar year -- but also directly referencing his second miracle. It was right after Jesus had changed the ritual hand-washing water of the Pharisees into wine at the wedding feast of Canaan that the fig tree was cursed. Certainly Peter (and others) had time to ponder all these things before he took up the 'mantle' of his apostleship.

This then is the light needed to address the question of "what generation". It may have been specifically given to a few men: the Apostles of the Lamb. They are the ones that witnessed the Passover, the Feast of the Unleavened Bread, the Feast of First Fruits and The feast of Pentecost or Shavuot which has many names in the Bible (the Feast of Weeks, the Feast of Harvest, and the Latter Firstfruits). They are the ones that witnessed the 2nd Miracle, the cursing of the fig tree.

Gentle reminder, "Can we know the difference between Summer and Fall?"
I believe that knowledge is critical to the understanding of whirlwind's comments about the former and later rains. ;) And although the gospels do not specifically mention Nathanael there is some suggestion that he would have a unique understanding also:


Joh 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
Joh 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, "Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!"
Joh 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, "Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee."
Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Joh 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these."


~Sparrow

Nathanael (whose name means "to know; to perceive") exclaimed, "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel!

Greetings, Sparrowhawke: Maybe people aren't answering you here because they really aren't sure what point you're trying to make.

Matthew24:34

 

[Sparkey]

Fair enough.

To answer your question, as if you did not know, I asked if God had purposefully devised a system where we could not "discover" the hour and pointed to the concepts about the Seasons of Israel. We (you and I) engaged about the "what generation?!?" -- "what season?!?" thing --and the discussion has yet to return to the topic.

My initial response to the OP is seen here:

The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.

...It puzzles me big time.

:help

Noah knew. Everybody who entered into the arc (Noah's family) knew. They had been building the boat for quite awhile -They were made a mockery for it. God won't do things without first revealing them (to those with an ear to hear).

Are we building that arc (symbolically?) Some are. Some only mock. It is imperative that we set our differences aside and join together into the One church, the One Spirit, yes? When you ask, "How will we not know when this is supposedly "after" the Beast's tyranny? I agree with you. We will, just like Noah did when the flood came and took them (sinners) all away.

Hope this helps, I won't even try to delve into the deeper things though. I'm lost when I'm told, "Let he who has wisdom understand" and such the like... but I do trust that the Lord will reveal more and more as the day approaches, in fact, I see Him doing so even now.

~Sparrow

Am I the only one here who thinks that God is able to confound those who consider themselves wise and that He has purposefully hidden certain things? Unto God is the secret(s) and unto us is what is revealed. He has designed the length of the hour so that it isn't 60 minutes (contrary to popular opinion). The hour is hidden in mystery but the length of the day can be lengthened or shortened.

My question was twofold: First, do any agree (or disagree) with the idea about Jewish length of hours being tied to the day itself? and secondly, "Can we shorten the day" or can this only be done by God. If Scripture shows that "we can" do so, how?

~Sparrowhawke
"The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."