dead churches, church split...

[Christ_empowered]

...how common are these issues in Protestant churches? Also, how common do you think apostate churches are?

 

[reba]

as long as there are people in churches there will be problems... Catholic churches have different factions. They keep them under the Catholic heading as others are under the Protestant heading. We are imperfect people we will have imperfections.

 

[Christ_empowered]

true.

 

[Chopper]

There will always be dead churches. I was raised Methodist. When I attended in the 50s it was Gospel preaching. Now, most are dead. There are a few who have a little life in them but not much IMO.

Split? Sometimes for the better but a lot of times it's because of Christians that simply can't get along. One of the churches that I was the pastor split. The ones who could not stand preaching right out of the Bible which was convicting these "so called Christians" left. After that, the Church grew Spiritually, many were saved.

 

[Mike S]

There will always be dead churches. I was raised Methodist. When I attended in the 50s it was Gospel preaching. Now, most are dead. There are a few who have a little life in them but not much IMO.

Split? Sometimes for the better but a lot of times it's because of Christians that simply can't get along. One of the churches that I was the pastor split. The ones who could not stand preaching right out of the Bible which was convicting these "so called Christians" left. After that, the Church grew Spiritually, many were saved.

Yes, dead churches and split churches are common. That's why there are more than 30,000 Protestant denominations around the globe.

I've been a Methodist all my life, still am. There are traditional conservative congregations - mine is such - but, you're correct, the Methodist church is generally a liberal denomination losing membership in the U.S. The good news is that Methodism is not a local or regional church, it's a global church, and gaining membership in Africa, Asia, and South America where it's a conservative evangelical church.

 

[for_his_glory]

Dead churches are like that of the Sardis church in Rev 3:1-6 that God gives them a warning of coming upon them like a thief to completely steal the little they do have. A lazy church is an unproductive church that becomes repetitious in all it does and leaves the flock to seek out greener pastures.

 

[Gary]

I believe what we are witnessing today is the "falling away" that is mentioned Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,


Before the man of sin is revealed, the physical church needs to replace the Gospel with something of their own making. It needs to twist the truth into something more comfortable. Something that requires less dedication, spiritually. While the outside appears clean and righteous, the inside is polluted, contaminated by the workings of man.

Isaiah 29
13 Therefore the Lord said:

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,


As Bob Dylan puts it, The times, they are a-changin.
.

 

[Sailingflutist-SF]

This subject touches my pet peeve of denominationalism. As I read God's Holy Word I see that the church is NOT the RCC or the Methodists, or the Pentecostals or the Baptists or the Nazarenes or the Presbyterians or the Amish or the... : it is the Body of Christ, who have recognized their wretched lot and turned to God receiving Jesus' propitiation (substitutionary taking the penalty for our sin upon Himself) and redeeming us before God, the Father in heaven, as if we were white as snow, without sin. And in their/our gratitude of such an unmerited gift they/we exhibit a transformation toward the exemplification of Christ's mindset and of His behavior. If we were doing this church splits would be to a minimum or gone.

Our COMMAND is to love each other but pride gets in the way and we feel the need to think that the group of which we belong is the right one and others are in error. This is a common attribute of ANY human social grouping. It is called Ethnocentrism. It is what gives any group of humans an Identity, uniformity, a sense of belongingness and/or significance, personal safety and protection, and the like. Unfortunately this natural social force, regardless of the benefits, with the self-centered focus and invisible (sometimes VERY visible) wall it creates is NOT of Christ and we see this in His character in how and who He chose to relate with humanity. He, a Jew and God, related with an adulterous woman and a forbidden race, Samaritans, tax collectors, lepers, and many other people who, by human wisdom, had no place for relations with a Jew or God. Satan loves it when we divide: divide and conquer, so it goes. Some say splits are good in order to accommodate diversity in the BODY; but doesn't seem at all to be the mindset of the 1st century church. I see Paul going to great lengths to squelch any division in the Body. Christ urgently wanted the church to be of mind and Spirit.

Dead churches are an autrocity but they will always be around as long as there are those who think church is there to serve their needs and to provide a place to feel safe and comfortable. The shepherds and leaders of those churches will have an accounting for having allowed such complacency and self-serving ventures.

We Christians NEED to learn effective means of conflict resolution (NOT quenching but accommodating and processing in an air of cooperation and love--BOTH sides) grounded in God's Word for our churches and to employ, if need be, someone who is gifted/skilled/trained in Organization Development. There are degrees specifically dedicated to OD. The Body of Christ IS an organization, regardless of how disorganized it is and demands someone who can actively and proactivly minister to the needs of such an organization with the full gambit of group and personal development dynamics. Pastors, do learn some Bus Admin BUT very little compared to what one learns who majors in the OD degree; esp if it is a Mater's degree fortified with a Bachelor's in Human Resources or the like. One gift of the Holy Spirit is Preaching and another, Administration, I do believe. Pastor's who have to wear both hats, whether they love it or not, are stifled from focusing upon shepherding their flocks as they ought.

 

[WIP]

Your point is good but I think has a flaw. How will we fallible and sinful humans decide who that "OD" will be? There are people holding a Ph.D. at the head of nearly every denomination on earth. A Bachelor's, Master's, or Ph.D. does not guarantee wisdom, integrity, honor, or Godly discernment. In the end, no matter whom we might choose to fill this role you've described, we would still be subject to the imperfection of this person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There will always be dead churches. I was raised Methodist. When I attended in the 50s it was Gospel preaching. Now, most are dead. There are a few who have a little life in them but not much IMO.

Split? Sometimes for the better but a lot of times it's because of Christians that simply can't get along. One of the churches that I was the pastor split. The ones who could not stand preaching right out of the Bible which was convicting these "so called Christians" left. After that, the Church grew Spiritually, many were saved.

I honestly think true, dedicated Christians are so few in number that it is impossible to organize them in a system of churches like we have now. So, basically, what we have is a system of churches for unbelievers.

This being true is the only reason I think 'having church' for the sake of getting people saved is fitting, instead of what church is really for--building up and encouraging the people of God, those already saved. Church, by virtue of it's very name, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

It's impossible for me, personally, to attend a church that has dedicated itself to just one of the missions that Christian's fulfill--evangelism. Those of us who don't excel in this area of evangelism are expected to go hungry while the church feeds the babies because they say that's what being a Christian is ALL about (that is, evangelism). And this is, IMO, a big reason for this crazy divisive spirit in the church. We think church is for unbelievers. It is the multitude of unbelievers that are causing the problems.

"19 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit." (Jude 19 NASB)

Now don't get me wrong. Evangelism is a necessary and important function in the Church. But ironically, that is the ministry of choice for false teachers. For obvious reasons you usually won't find false teachers creating ministries that build up the body into the character of Christ (who then go out and reach unbelievers).

 

[reba]

The churches should be equipping the Christians for evangelism.. Way to often the guy in the pew just wants to hear he is a good boy and go off to his real life...

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

We have forgotten that once we get people into church we need to disciple them. I think most churches today are dead churches because the fail to disciple their followers. They "tickle their ears" and that is about it.

 

[Gary]

We have forgotten that once we get people into church we need to disciple them. I think most churches today are dead churches because the fail to disciple their followers. They "tickle their ears" and that is about it.

They teach what they were taught.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They teach what they were taught.

Which is why I say the crisis in our churches is a crisis of leadership.

 

[Gary]

They teach what they were taught.

Which is why I say the crisis in our churches is a crisis of leadership.

Jesus said:

Matthew 15
13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus said:

Matthew 15
13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.
14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
.

I have learned a lot from that passage.

Because of this passage I only get my undies in a bunch about false churches and their followers when they try to make inroads directly into the true church. Jesus didn't try to eradicate false religion in the world, why should I? There is an appointed time when that will happen. Until then the wheat and the tares grow together.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

They teach what they were taught.

Not all the time. Have you ever gone to Bible school? I did and I found the teaching to be very good for the most part. Some of it was great and I always wondered why pastors didn't teach this stuff. All I can figure out is they get into their churches and in order to keep their giving base up they have to say what the congregation wants to hear.

 

[Gary]

Not all the time. Have you ever gone to Bible school? I did and I found the teaching to be very good for the most part. Some of it was great and I always wondered why pastors didn't teach this stuff. All I can figure out is they get into their churches and in order to keep their giving base up they have to say what the congregation wants to hear.

That's called greed. They don't say it because they have to, they say it because they want to.

1 Timothy 6
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
.

 

[Chopper]

Not all the time. Have you ever gone to Bible school? I did and I found the teaching to be very good for the most part. Some of it was great and I always wondered why pastors didn't teach this stuff. All I can figure out is they get into their churches and in order to keep their giving base up they have to say what the congregation wants to hear.

You are absolutely right Sandy. Usually, the men coming out of Bible Colleges these days are young and with no experience in standing up to the leadership of a church that they have been called too, just ends up to be pushed around by these leaders who are in charge of money coming in, and attendance. Unless this new preacher is convinced that Jesus has installed him in that church, he will buckle down to the desires of the leadership.

If on the other hand, since he knows Jesus installed him, he can stand up to the leadership and preach and lead the church the way Jesus is prompting him. The only problem with that is he will face a battle over who is in charge....I know because I've been there! I chose to lead the leadership instead of the leadership leading me. That is the what happens.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've been developing my understanding of churches, and being a pastor over the last several years.

Two things I've decided are true if you want to be a true, godly servant of God who does not compromise:

1) Don't become a pastor thinking that this is your career choice and how you'll get a piece of the American dream. Nothing wrong with having a skill that pays the mortgage and lets you have special things in your life, but because the true church of God is so small it's unreasonable to count on a person devoting themselves to this small group of God's real people, and having a million dollar budget church that pays a good salary, at the same time. It's not realistic for the pastor who wants to keep the body of Christ pure and keep the tares out.

2) Churches really are centered around the pastor who's leading it. I've resisted this notion for so many years, but am now convinced that God does not establish churches and then rotates men in and out of them to lead them. He gifts various men to minister his truth in power to his people. The anointing follows him, not the church building/ministry established to house him.

Simple observation proves this, but we just won't allow ourselves to believe it.