Death and the Hope of Heaven

[VirginShallConceive]

It's this simultaneous fear coupled with constant proclamations in anticipation of Heaven that is learned by the child.

We don't give children enough credit, me thinks. (that's my grandson speaking Yoda). Uncle Mike was a Christian we believe we will see him in heaven. But the way Uncle Mike died was a slow and awful existence. At 50 he suffered a stroke the paralyzed him on one side. He could no longer speak or eat (feeding tube). His wife took care of him at home for three long years. He finally died in his sleep.
I would not want to die this way, a burden on my family. I have a Christian friend who said she was afraid to die. I asked her why, because she is afraid it might be painful.
If our children do not understand it is because we have failed to explain it.

What I have a problem with is telling a child who has lost their parent, that God needs them in heaven. Then that child will wonder why God would need their daddy more than they do? After all, I'm just a little child, God is all powerful, why couldn't He use someone else. And what could he possibly be doing in heaven for God?
Now that's just making things up and confusing a child. It's better just to say, you don't know why they died, than to give them nonsense. Children are not stupid. But sometimes adults don't want to admit they just don't know right now. Maybe someday they will see.

Well, no matter what excuses you would like to tell yourself, I certainly see that the actions and proclaimed beliefs of the overwhelming majority of Christians do not match up. Earlier in this thread, you have an honest and warranted suspicion about Christians and their actions:

Keeps me wondering. If we expect death to be an improvement, then why is it we christians aren't the most deathwishing, suicidal bunch on earth? Okay, maybe because God doesn't want fr us to commit violence against ourselves, so suicide is out of question. But I never heard any christian say that they secretly wish they'd die soon so they can be with Christ, like Paul did.

That's why I'm suspecting many christians don't really believe in what they say they believe.

Then, you have two others agreeing-- because it is plain to see when honestly looking.

Death isn't the only type of instance in which Christians don't back up their proclamations with their actions. Another huge example that flaunts itself at every turn of the corner is how Christians proclaim that God has the authority over everything and how important it is to obey God(in whatever way each individual Christian interprets the message of what it is, exactly, that God wants them to do). But, you see these Christians stop speeding when they spot a traffic cop-- every single time. In a lame excuse for their sins against God, you might hear them say "We are sinful by nature". And sure, maybe it is natural to speed when you are tying to get somewhere. But, as soon as they realize the cop with the radar gun is watching, they always slow down . . . ALWAYS. Then, they'll turn around and say that God is always watching.

Turn that 100% obedience to the traffic cop who is watching into the 100% refrain from sinful physical actions against God who is always watching, and then we can talk. (I couldn't include thought crimes in my comparison because the cop can't give you a ticket just for wishing that you could speed.)

Until then, they don't act like it.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

It's better just to say, you don't know why ................, than to give..........nonsense.

As a species we struggle mightily with this. I venture to say that many of the lies we tell are often because we refuse to simply say I don't know. We have a horrible habit of making things up that serve to appease and/or bring momentary comfort when in fact the momentary comfort that was brought may be counterproductive as it could get in the way of us seeking genuine answers to that which will apparantly aren't willing to admit that we just don't know.

Children are not stupid. But sometimes adults don't want to admit they just don't know right now. Maybe someday they will see.

Maybe someday we will. I sure hope so.

 

[Deborah13]

Then, you have two others agreeing-- because it is plain to see when honestly looking.

All I can comment on is what I have seen. I don't like to speculate too much about what is in someone else thoughts, heart, and faith.

Turn that 100% obedience to the traffic cop who is watching into the 100% refrain from sinful physical actions against God who is always watching, and then we can talk. (I couldn't include thought crimes in my comparison because the cop can't give you a ticket just for wishing that you could speed.)

Well I hear what you are saying. It's because God is not right there to thump you immediately when you disobey. I think the wise person remembers that some day all those things will be brought up again. But some of us are like children wanting what we want today and not being serious about tomorrow.
It's like the kids Santa song, you better watch out, you better not cry, you better not pout......he knows when you've been bad or good.....He's Coming....

(I couldn't include thought crimes in my comparison because the cop can't give you a ticket just for wishing that you could speed.)

wishing, lol

The only time one can be sure of not getting a ticket for speeding, is when you are following a cop that is speeding with no emergency lights or siren.

But seriously, no Christian is perfect God said so. It's a process. Hopefully we get wiser as we get older. That only happens by trusting Him and listening.
There are some Christians who are very good at being good, 99.999999% of the time.

We just can't lump all people in a group together as to behaviors, isn't that discrimination? All Christian behave this way, all unbelievers are totally evil and never do good, All men have huge egos, All women are whiners and nags.......all of that IS an untruth/lie.

 

[Deborah13]

As a species we struggle mightily with this. I venture to say that many of the lies we tell are often because we refuse to simply say I don't know.

You are surely correct about this being the case sometimes. I was just thinking too, that adults feel like they should have the answers for children so that the children can feel secure. Does that make sense? We are desperate to give them something to make them feel better. "I don't know" may honest but not very reassuring.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Well I hear what you are saying. It's because God is not right there to thump you immediately when you disobey. I think the wise person remembers that some day all those things will be brought up again. But some of us are like children wanting what we want today and not being serious about tomorrow.
It's like the kids Santa song, you better watch out, you better not cry, you better not pout......he knows when you've been bad or good.....He's Coming....

Good points.

 

[Maedchen]

Hi all.

I just wanted to throw a thought into your interesting discussion. I really hope not to stop or hinder your thoughts by that.

I agree that many self declared Christians do not really act according to what they testify with their mouths.
And I admit that I am probably one of the most severe ones of those, because often I see no other way than breaking one of Jesus' rules, in order to live. That makes me much ashamed of myself, and I would like to change that, but I just do not know how. I do not only mean driving faster than allowed.

Consequently Hebr. 10:26,27,31 seems to apply to me: "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries....It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Yet, regarding Isaiah 66:2, I hope that God, who is love, will look mercifully on me, "but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."
Hence, I still look forward to meet Jesus face to face, although I know for sure that I never fulfilled his expectations.
I trust that "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev. 21:4)
I am looking so much forward to that day.

To those of you who are no believers, and who do not fear death but only a painful dying, I might address one more question:
Isn't the uncertainty of what will come after death even more disturbing than physical pain?
You know, by physical law, energy can't just vanish (kinetic energy transfers to thermal energy, etc.). So logically, our earthly existence must be followed by some after-death existence. How do you endure this terrible uncertainty?

Maedchen

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

And I admit that I am probably one of the most severe ones of those, because often I see no other way than breaking one of Jesus' rules, in order to live

Hi Maedchen, do not fret, the Lord is on the way!
As Paul tells us in Romans 14:4;
"You will stand, for the Lord is able to make you stand".
You are certainly not going through anything more than the rest of us go through.
I know that I will stand in the end by the power of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Amen

 

[Maedchen]

And I admit that I am probably one of the most severe ones of those, because often I see no other way than breaking one of Jesus' rules, in order to live

Hi Maedchen, do not fret, the Lord is on the way!
As Paul tells us in Romans 14:4;
"You will stand, for the Lord is able to make you stand".
You are certainly not going through anything more than the rest of us go through.
I know that I will stand in the end by the power of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Amen

:*-)

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Hi all.

I just wanted to throw a thought into your interesting discussion. I really hope not to stop or hinder your thoughts by that.

No problem, Maedchen. You will certainly not be viewed as an unwelcome intruder.

Great thread, by the way.

To those of you who are not believers, and who do not fear death but only a painful dying, I might address one more question:
Isn't the uncertainty of what will come after death even more disturbing than physical pain?
You know, by physical law, energy can't just vanish (kinetic energy transfers to thermal energy, etc.). So logically, our earthly existence must be followed by some after-death existence. How do you endure this terrible uncertainty?

Maedchen

Well, I fear death. Even the ones who don't "fear" death almost always want to continue living. I mean, at what point along the spectrum does "desire" become ------------> "indifference" ------------> "undesire" ------------> "fear". Just like many words, I guess, the terms "fear" and "don't fear" don't, by themselves, adequately pinpoint where one stands along that spectrum in regards to a potential or inevitable event.

For the people who believe in an Eternal Bliss after this life, the most important thing is that it brings them happiness. One's happiness is the most important thing there is. It would even be fine to teach to children that there exists an Eternal Bliss after this life, as long as you could somehow guarantee that they would never come to a different conclusion for the rest of their life.

The problem is that you can't guarantee that a child will keep that thought without ever thinking too deeply about what it claims.

When I was a child, I was taught that when I die, I will be happy in Heaven with Jesus and all my loved ones for Eternity.

Now, I see things differently. I see it for what it is-- as far as I know. There is much that can't be surely known. I was born into a world where there are plants and animals. I happened to be born a human, the most intelligent life-form that we are aware of. We are not the strongest, the fastest, nor the longest-lived. But, we are the smartest. I also know that humans invent stories. Humans have invented countless stories over the years to tell one another. The farther you go back in time, the more far-fetched of a story humans were willing to believe, so it seems.

Like I said, I was born into this world. I don't remember being born, let alone remember any existence I might have had before this life. I don't know where I am going when I die. Some non-believers find some comfort by relating their "non-existence" after this life to their "non-existence" before this life. If you ask me, I would rather have Eternal Bliss with my family, friends, and countless interesting people that I haven't met yet, including the Creator or Creators of the Universe. But, just because I would prefer that, it doesn't mean that it is my actual circumstance. For me, I am unable to tell myself that Eternal Bliss is even significantly probable, but I still hope for it. And . . . who knows?

 

[Infinity]

To those of you who are no believers, and who do not fear death but only a painful dying, I might address one more question:
Isn't the uncertainty of what will come after death even more disturbing than physical pain?
You know, by physical law, energy can't just vanish (kinetic energy transfers to thermal energy, etc.). So logically, our earthly existence must be followed by some after-death existence. How do you endure this terrible uncertainty?

Maedchen

Even if we believe in an after life or not, I honestly see no reason why would we just assume it's something bad and be scared of it.

 

[Brother Mike]

I was just thinking too, that adults feel like they should have the answers for children so that the children can feel secure.

I had to deal with a young teen girl who lost her brother. She was told that God took her brother because God needed him in Heaven to help out with the Children. The devil killed her brother, I was there through the whole thing, and I know how and why the devil got a place. This Church lied to her, but I could not tell her why either because it was her mothers fault.

If we don't know the why, then I don't know is a good answer. I can tell you who was not involved and that was our great Father in Heaven who does not even take pleasure in the death of the wicked, let alone the death of a child who's parents have made Jesus Lord. Children share the same covenant and faith the parents share, so you can always look back and ask for wisdom, God does reveal the why of things.

One Christian women always told her daughter to be careful driving so she does not get into a car crash and die. She would have her daughter call her every time she left to make sure she arrived at her destination. Soon the daughter was talking about not wanting to get in a car crash and this went on every since the girl started to drive and she was in her 30's.

Guess how she died?

The mother was upset at God, she prayed all the time that her daughter would not die in a car crash. (Sounds a lot like Job)

I am convinced that if we listen to the Holy spirit we can avoid all these reaching Heaven early experiences. God is faithful and will put that check in your heart before allowing your kid to do something or go someplace. Will put that check in your heart to keep the child home that day. God is not asleep at the Job, we are. I can tell you first hand when we ignore those promptings and go through with things anyway, it don't end well.

God does not use fear to alert us, so many miss it, and it don't end well.

As for death, I will complete all that God has planed before I die if the Lord tarry a bit longer. We have work to do, and need to stick around doing everything we have been called to do.

Mike.

 

[Vaccine]

Are you looking forward to that day when you will go to be with Christ, "which is better by far"?

Yes, absolutely!!!
My wife has many health problems and longs to be with Christ. Me and our kids is the only thing that keeps her going. I know she is in pain everyday but she is still a good mother and wife. She really struggles with wanting to die. Some days are better than others, but we pray and take it one day at a time.

I can tell you who was not involved and that was our great Father in Heaven

[MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION] Isn't God sovereign?

 

[Brother Mike]

@Brother Mike Isn't God sovereign?

I forgot about this thread. There is no scripture saying God is Sovereign. The problem is that when you hear the Word sovereign in a Christian discussion, then that really means God does what he wants, to who he wants and when he wants. God becomes a outlaw because if people were God that is what they would be.

So, Sovereign to the religious world that does not know God personally, never hears God, never talks to God expecting Him to answer back things Sovereign means God breaks his Word when He feels like it on some mysterious whim that nobody can know or fathom because His ways are just so much Higher than our ways. After all, we are just stupid humans, right?

For example, for God to have given permission to Satan to destroy Job and murder His Children, do you realize that God would have had to break about 5 of his other scriptures to do that? yet to a religious person, God is God and God does what he wants despite what he said.

We are talking about a child here.......... You might get this, you might not. We will see.

Jesus said......... If anyone hurt one of these little ones, it would be better for them to put a millstone around their neck and jump into the sea. Their Angel shall behold the face of my Father.

Now, God would have anything to do with harming a child? have anything to do with giving the devil permission to murder that child? Make a decision to kill that child? Just sit back and even watch as that Child dies doing nothing If He could?

Let me tell you something, God is not going to be fitting himself with a millstone, ever. Nor will the Angels fly by saying hypocrite........

Mike.

 

[Vaccine]

Jesus said......... If anyone hurt one of these little ones, it would be better for them to put a millstone around their neck and jump into the sea. Their Angel shall behold the face of my Father.

If my son hurt a little one, will the millstone go on my neck or his?

 

[reba]

G935
βασιλεύς
basileus
bas-il-yooce'
Probably from G939 (through the notion of a foundation of power); a sovereign (abstractly, relatively or figuratively): - king.

 

[Brother Mike]

If my son hurt a little one, will the millstone go on my neck or his?

Mar_9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

First I did not say that, Jesus did and if that is the best you can do..........."What if my son hurt a child, Does my son get a Millstone..... OH MY" How old are you? Just amazing. ............Does my son get a Millstone......... ??

Just, never mind.

Mike.

 

[Maedchen]

Dear [MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION], you wrote, "There is no scripture saying God is Sovereign."

In Luke 2:29, Acts 4:24 and Rev. 6:10 the word "Lord" is used by the following:
G1203 (Strong)

δεσπότης

despotēs

des-pot'-ace

Perhaps from G1210 and πόσις posis (a husband); an absolute ruler (“despot”): - Lord, master.

I think "absolute ruler" is a synonym for sovereign.

God may bless you. Maedchen

 

[Vaccine]

C'mon Mike, don't read into it so much. I think this is important and relevant to the OP. The original question I asked was "Isn't God sovereign?", not "Isn't God responsible?".

When you said God isn't involved with death, that isn't true. True, God is not involved with a persons decision to take the life of another human being or harm children. However, God is involved in death, It is APPOINTED a man should die once. Heb 9:27.

Who made that appointment?

Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance;
And in thy book they were all written, [Even] the
days that were ordained [for me], When as yet
there was none of them. Psalm 139:16
I believe God can be sovereign and loving without violating his promises or our free will.


@maeschen thanks for clarifying that!

 

[stovebolts]

Death for the believer is distinctly different from what it is for the unbeliever. For us, it isn't something to be feared or shunned, for we know death is but the shadowed threshold to the palace of God.
( Billy Graham)

"I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far."
(Philippians 1:23)

Are you looking forward to that day when you will go to be with Christ, "which is better by far"?

Hi, and you ask some good questions. If I'm honest, I think like a child in this area because I'm not ready to really think about dying and the whole heaven and hell idea wasn't my main focus... it was always about how to live a better life. One free from sorrow and pain. A life that was full of better decisions and less consequences due to poor choices. Sin hurts, and I was my own worst enemy.

If I'm honest, I don't look forward to the day when I take my final breath. Scripture says that I am currently united with Christ and that I am living the resurrected life (Romans 6) Not only that, but I am already a new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5). That being said, even with all of life's disappointments, heartaches and tears I haven't lost my hope for a better life both for myself and my family. However, having all of my tears wiped away (I have many) and being in a place of no more sorrow, no more suffering is a place I long for.. a place I think we are tasked with creating here on earth "Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven". But I know this is a never ending task and a task that produces thorns even when we try our hardest. Still, I am not at the place Paul was quiet yet. I'm not ready to throw in the towel and through all the pain and sorrow, life is still good. It's not perfect, but it's still good.

So I am torn. I do so crave to have my tears wiped away, but I crave the time with my family even more. There is work that is left un-done that I pray for, and I would like to see them answered before I die. I'm sure Simeon in Luke 2 had his reasons for wanting to see the Messiah before he died, I have a hope too that I want to see before I die if that makes any sense.

So sorry for the ramble.

 

[Maedchen]

[MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION]:

Dear brother,

I do sincerely hope that I did not offend you by my last post. I simply used my old concordance of Jehovah's Witnesses, who translated the word "Lord" very often with Sovereign Jehovah, although they did not distinguish between the appropriate Greek vocabularies. So I was simply sensitive for this word "sovereign", because I heard it so often in my past, and I knew there are verses where it is used with good reason.

Please forgive me for appearing as if I would know better. Actually I don't.

And what you wrote is something that many may have asked themselves:
"Now, God would have anything to do with harming a child? have anything to do with giving the devil permission to murder that child? Make a decision to kill that child? Just sit back and even watch as that Child dies doing nothing If He could? "

You know, in the book of Job it is made clear that God allowed Satan to take away from Job everything that was dear to him. So the children were included.
My own trust in God's love and compassion makes me believe, that God gave those children of Job a death without pain ( the house collapsed, so death may have come instantly). So these children did not suffer, but were transferred from earthly life to the wonderful life in heaven, "which is better by far"(Philippians 1:23).

Thus we can still believe that God would never do anything bad as the word "despot" = sovereign = absolute ruler, would imply.
In the contrary, because God is love (1.John 4:8), he finds always a way to protect and comfort his children, even if it is finally in death.

Again, please forgive my seemingly superior attitude. I did not mean it.

Maedchen