[_ Old Earth _] Death Before Sin

[Asimov]

I posted this over on CF.com...but I also wanted to see what you people over on the cf.net had to say as well.

I just have something I need to try and clarify. God created the Garden of Eden, he made things grow there that were good to eat, and put Adam in there whom he formed. God also planted two trees in the Garden, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the Tree of Life. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, God found out and Adam and Eve were cursed.



Now, YEC's assume that there was no death before the fall. They back this up by quoting Scripture that seem to suggest that physical death in ALL things did not happen until Adam sinned. Logically, one would assume that YEC's believe Adam was meant to live in the Garden forever. If I am wrong about this, then please correct me.



Now, where I am fuzzy, is where God Himself says in Genesis 3:22-24:

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God sent Adam from the Garden of Eden, because he didn't want Adam to have eternal life. If Adam was meant to live forever, then why was God saying that Adam had to eat from the Tree of Life to live forever? If death indeed did not exist until Sin, and Adam was meant to live forever, then why was there a Tree of Life?



If he wasn't meant to live forever, the surely he, and other creatures had to die. To not live forever means to die.



Please clarify this for me YEC's...

 

[Guest]

You should be looking for TRUTH and not arguing with very silly people about a very silly fable from a very silly book !!!! Hint : Ever heard of EVOLUTION ????





Cheers

 

[Asimov]

You should be looking for TRUTH and not arguing with very silly people about a very silly fable from a very silly book !!!! Hint : Ever heard of EVOLUTION ????

thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanks......no, I've NEVER heard of evolution.

 

[Featherbop]

IIRC, Adam would only live forever if he ate of the tree of life. Diet is important. Eat healthy and live longer.

Note: Noone was there, so noone can say for sure. duh.

 

[cubedbee]

Here's the two possibilities I see. Both are possible, since with God anything is possible, but scenario 2 makes much more sense. In scenario 1, the tree of life serves no discernable purpose. In scenario 2, the tree of life grants Man physical immortality when we were spiritually alive, and is taken away once we spiritually die.

Scenario 1
1) God created all life, which was initially immortal
2) God created a tree which would bring knowledge of good and evil, but also physical death 3) God created a tree which would give the eater immortality
4) Man ate from the Good/evil tree and brought death into creation
5) God, not wanting knowledgable man to have immortality, guarded the tree of life

Scenario 2
1) God created all life, which was initially mortal
2) God created a tree which would bring knowledge of good and evil, but also spiritual death 3) God created a tree which would give the eater immortality
4) Man ate from the Good/evil tree and brought spiritual death unto himself
5) God, not wanting knowledgable and spiritually dead Man to have immortality, guarded the tree of life

 

[Asimov]

IIRC, Adam would only live forever if he ate of the tree of life. Diet is important. Eat healthy and live longer.

Note: Noone was there, so noone can say for sure. duh.

No one was there, but I'm going by what it says in the bible. And what it says in the bible contradicts YEC claims that there was no death before the fall. If life was created immortal, then there would be no need for a tree of life.

If life was created mortal, then maybe there would be need for a tree of life, if God wanted Adam to become immortal. However, it begs the question "if God is omniscient, and he knew Adam would screw up anyway....why plant the tree of life???

 

[Featherbop]

Why this why that whatever why.

Everyone wonders why anything and whatever happens. Not the topic, so yeah, maybe YECs(not all, but many perhaps?) are claiming something non-Biblical? And just what is/was the tree of life? Was it a real tree? Maybe it was something symbolic? or perhaps it wasn't a tree, but something else.

Questions gotta love em.

 

[Asimov]

Not the topic, so yeah, maybe YECs(not all, but many perhaps?) are claiming something non-Biblical?

That is the point.

And just what is/was the tree of life? Was it a real tree? Maybe it was something symbolic? or perhaps it wasn't a tree, but something else.

Questions gotta love em.

Maybe...I personally don't care if the Tree of Life was a supercomputer. YEC's claim there was death before sin, this shows that this view is not true.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Someone's been watching Ah Megamisama

 

[Featherbop]

[quote="Darck Marck":3ee52]Not the topic, so yeah, maybe YECs(not all, but many perhaps?) are claiming something non-Biblical?

That is the point.

And just what is/was the tree of life? Was it a real tree? Maybe it was something symbolic? or perhaps it wasn't a tree, but something else.

Questions gotta love em.

Maybe...I personally don't care if the Tree of Life was a supercomputer. YEC's claim there was death before sin, this shows that this view is not true.[/quote:3ee52]

I thought you said YECs(most) claim there was no death before sin entered? Which is it?

 

[Asimov]

Sorry about the typo, I mean that they did not believe there was death before Sin.

 

[goliwog man]

The result of sin is death.........just as the result of stupidity is of coarse believing evolution . So if you didnt sin u couldnt die just as if men werent stupid they wouldnt believe evolution. if there was death there would have to be sin.

Also two ppl were there adam and eve

 

[B]

Um, a query.
If there was no death in the garden of eden originally, then how did lions, tigers, etc get their food?

Tofu?

Answers, YEC?

 

[Sophistress]

The result of sin is death.........just as the result of stupidity is of coarse believing evolution . So if you didnt sin u couldnt die just as if men werent stupid they wouldnt believe evolution. if there was death there would have to be sin.

Also two ppl were there adam and eve

You might want to proof read before you call anyone else stupid.

 

[B]

Nicely said!
:

 

[Grace Alone]

Um, a query.
If there was no death in the garden of eden originally, then how did lions, tigers, etc get their food?

Tofu?

Answers, YEC?

Yep, tofu....they will say that all animals were herbivores before the fall.

 

[mh13]

As they will be again...

 

[Asimov]

The result of sin is death, just as the result of stupidity is of course believing in evolution.

Good thing evolution is not a belief then.

So if you didn't sin you couldn't die just as if men weren't stupid they would believe evolution. If there was death there would have to be sin.

What kind of death though?? If it were meant to be a literal death, then plants, bacteria, animals. We couldn't eat anything, because plants are alive. Spiritual death makes much more sense. You didn't answer my questions in the OP though, you just sat there grinning. It says in Genesis that Adam wasn't immortal before he sinned, because he hadn't eaten the fruit.

 

[Asimov]

Um, a query.
If there was no death in the garden of eden originally, then how did lions, tigers, etc get their food?

Tofu?

Answers, YEC?

Yep, tofu....they will say that all animals were herbivores before the fall.

We have to eat organic material, some animals eat other animals, some animals eat plants. Plants are organic material, they are alive, in every sense that animals are. Eating a plant is killing life.

 

[bibleberean]

Plants do not have a living soul. Animals and plants are not treated the same in the bible.

All animals ate plants before the fall.

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Genesis 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

When Chirst returns all animals will again eat plants.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.