[_ Old Earth _] Death Before Sin

[Asimov]

Plants do not have a living soul. Animals and plants are not treated the same in the bible.

Extra-biblically, there is no evidence whatsoever, for the presence of a soul. Biblically, only humans have souls. When God created animals, he didn't give them a living soul as he did Adam. Humans and animals are not treated the same in the bible either. Humans have a soul, animals do not.

All animals ate plants before the fall.

This is impossible, because that is death. If there was no death before the fall, plants could not die.

When Chirst returns all animals will again eat plants.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

This is metaphorical and poetic, for peace and prosperity.

 

[goliwog man]

goliwog man wrote:
The result of sin is death, just as the result of stupidity is of course believing in evolution.


Good thing evolution is not a belief then.

To agree with evolution is to believe it is true.

Quote:
So if you didn't sin you couldn't die just as if men weren't stupid they would believe evolution. If there was death there would have to be sin.


What kind of death though?? If it were meant to be a literal death, then plants, bacteria, animals. We couldn't eat anything, because plants are alive. Spiritual death makes much more sense. You didn't answer my questions in the OP though, you just sat there grinning. It says in Genesis that Adam wasn't immortal before he sinned, because he hadn't eaten the fruit.

Gen 1v29 And God said, behold I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yeilding seed: To you it shall be for meat God also gave fruit to animals in the next verse. He made it and it was good. You must also remember that without sin there is no death this means no expirey date on food. Eat of the Food of God and you will never hunger it will never run out ( i'm gunna catch up with that old post.....)

 

[Asimov]

To agree with evolution is to believe it is true.

No, to agree with evolution is to accept that it happens. It has nothing to do with religious belief, or faith.

God also gave fruit to animals in the next verse. He made it and it was good. You must also remember that without sin there is no death this means no expirey date on food. Eat of the Food of God and you will never hunger it will never run out ( i'm gunna catch up with that old post.....)

So you're saying that food would not die. That's what an expiry date is. How do thing grow, if things don't die?? Life is dependant on death. If things did not die, things could not live.

 

[bibleberean]

Plants do not have a living soul. Animals and plants are not treated the same in the bible.

Extra-biblically, there is no evidence whatsoever, for the presence of a soul. Biblically, only humans have souls. When God created animals, he didn't give them a living soul as he did Adam. Humans and animals are not treated the same in the bible either. Humans have a soul, animals do not.

All animals ate plants before the fall.

This is impossible, because that is death. If there was no death before the fall, plants could not die.

[quote0584]When Chirst returns all animals will again eat plants.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

This is metaphorical and poetic, for peace and prosperity.[/quote0584]

According to the bible plants do not have a spirit. The point is bible believers do not believe that plants die in the same way as animal life.

It doesn't matter to us what you believe. You don't have to believe the bible.

 

[bibleberean]

Quote:
When Chirst returns all animals will again eat plants.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.


This is metaphorical and poetic, for peace and prosperity.

Nope, this is literal and meant to be taken that way.

 

[cubedbee]

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked

So Jesus actually has a rod coming out of his mouth and poisonous breath? How do you know which parts are literally true and which parts are symbolic? I would say the animal passage, which includes a mythological creature, is definitely symbolic of the peace of Christ's reign.

 

[Asimov]

According to the bible plants do not have a spirit. The point is bible believers do not believe that plants die in the same way as animal life.

According to the Bible, neither do animals! Show me one scripture which says that animals have a soul. The point is, that what you believe is irrelevant to the fact that plants are alive as much as a mouse is alive.

 

[bibleberean]

According to the bible plants do not have a spirit. The point is bible believers do not believe that plants die in the same way as animal life.

According to the Bible, neither do animals! Show me one scripture which says that animals have a soul. The point is, that what you believe is irrelevant to the fact that plants are alive as much as a mouse is alive.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Job 12:7 But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:

Job 12:8 Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Plants are meat for the living. They neither have soul nor Spirit.

Genesis 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

30. a. life: Heb. a living soul side not KJV translators

Plants are not the same as man and animals. God says so.

You are over ruled.

 

[goliwog man]

God didnt create death until adam produced sin....

Another intersting thought is how there there is no mention of God creating weeds in the frist 7 days. it didnt come till sin in gen3 v 18

 

[Featherbop]

There was no human death before the fall.

 

[Asimov]

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ok, I admit, this onepassage supports animals having spirits. It's not the same Spirit as humans, it's nothing like humans, there's a differentiation.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

But this also supports that a plant may have soul. Every living thing includes everything that is alive.

Plants are meat for the living. They neither have soul nor Spirit.

Prove that they neither have soul nor spirit.

Plants are not the same as man and animals. God says so.

Animals are not the same as man either! God says so.

You are over ruled.

Overruled...?

 

[Asimov]

God didnt create death until adam produced sin....

This is not true, as I have said before, Adam was never meant to be immortal, he wasn't created immortal, he was going to die eventually.

 

[bibleberean]

[quote="goliwog man":6e73f]God didnt create death until adam produced sin....

This is not true, as I have said before, Adam was never meant to be immortal, he wasn't created immortal, he was going to die eventually.[/quote:6e73f]

That is true there was no death until Adam sinned.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Guess what believers get?

Yeehaw!

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No more pain. That means unless a skeptic repents he cannot be part of that company because atheists and skeptic are a royal pain.

Guess what skeptics get?

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, ...

:angel:

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

I've been meaning to ask: What in the name of Azathoth has this thread got to do with the evolution vs creationism debate?

 

[Asimov]

I've been meaning to ask: What in the name of Azathoth has this thread got to do with the evolution vs creationism debate?

Sorry Syntanx, you know how these things can get.

My OP was directed at YEC's who posit that there was no death before the fall. My point was that since Adam hadn't eaten of the tree, he was never immortal, so there would have been death.

 

[bibleberean]

I've been meaning to ask: What in the name of Azathoth has this thread got to do with the evolution vs creationism debate?

Sorry Syntanx, you know how these things can get.

My OP was directed at YEC's who posit that there was no death before the fall. My point was that since Adam hadn't eaten of the tree, he was never immortal, so there would have been death.

Adam died in sin the day he ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

His body became subject to death. By eating from the tree of life his body would have lived but his soul and spirit would be separated from God forever.

No details are given as to exactly what the consequences of living in that state would be but no doubt God kept man away from that tree with his best interests in mind.

If you think you have disproved the bible or found some great new truth you are mistaken.

Evolution is evilution. Man is not rising but falling.

Mankind is always moving closer to self destruction.

There was no death until Adam sinned.

God did not give plants pneuma (spirit).

The observable evidence proves that life could not have started by chance.

Life cannot spring from non-life.

Genesis 1:11-12 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

 

[Asimov]

Adam died in sin the day he ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

His spirit did.

His body became subject to death. By eating from the tree of life his body would have lived but his soul and spirit would be separated from God forever.

No details are given as to exactly what the consequences of living in that state would be but no doubt God kept man away from that tree with his best interests in mind.

If you think you have disproved the bible or found some great new truth you are mistaken.

When did I ever say that I was trying to disprove the bible. That's very arrogant of you to think that your interpretation is the true one.

Evolution is evilution. Man is not rising but falling.

Evolution doesn't say that man is rising.

Mankind is always moving closer to self destruction.

There was no death until Adam sinned.

You keep sayin it, but God never meant Adam to be immortal.

God did not give plants pneuma (spirit).

Where does it say that?

The observable evidence proves that life could not have started by chance.

Life cannot spring from non-life.

What does this have to do with evolution?

Nice list, now can we have a conversation?

 

[goliwog man]

Animals are not the same as man either! God says so.

hey Did you or anyone else post on the old thread are humans animals (in general talk) what was the result?

 

[bibleberean]

Adam was not meant to die. No man was meant to die.

Sin is what brought death and corruption.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;...

Adam and Eve could only die by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That is why Christ had to become a man and shed His innocent pure blood on man's behalf.


Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Adam's blood was corrupt from sin.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All Adams offspring were born in sin.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Man lost eternal life in the Garden. Christ gained eternal life for man on the cross.

again:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Plants are not alive by God's definition of life.

That is why plants were given for food.

Plants do not have blood.

Genesis 9:3-4 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

That is why Cain's sacrifice was not acceptable and Abel's was accepted.

Genesis 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Genesis 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Abel shed blood for a sacrifice and Cain offered the fruit of the field.

Plants are living only in the sense that they can reproduce and have an system that responds to the environment but they do not have blood.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Man's blood became corrupt through sin. Man can only have eternal life by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

"What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus."

Animals and man both have blood.

Life is in the blood. The shed blood of Jesus cleanses man from sin.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

I apologize for assuming that The Tuatha'an was trying to disprove the bible. His or her knowledge of the bible and the fundamental doctrines of the faith are so abysmal I could only conclude he or she was totally ignorant of the scriptures and an unbeliever.

My assumption was only partly true.

Sorry Tuatha'an.

 

[cubedbee]

If the death that is being spoken of is physical death, then Christ didn't conquer it. We all still physically die. However, throught Christ, we have been made spiritually alive. We will have eternal life in Christ, but not in our physical perishable bodies, which were never meant to be immortal.