[_ Old Earth _] Death Before Sin

[bibleberean]

If the death that is being spoken of is physical death, then Christ didn't conquer it. We all still physically die. However, throught Christ, we have been made spiritually alive. We will have eternal life in Christ, but not in our physical perishable bodies, which were never meant to be immortal.

Our physical bodies do become immortal in the future.

Our bodies were meant to be immortal but Adam sinned and forfeited his life and the lives of his offspring.

Our physical bodies will be resurrected incorruptible.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

We will be like Jesus. Jesus has a physical body which is immortal

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So will we.

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

12 The Resurrections
Rightly Dividing the Word, by Clarence Larkin, 1920

Chapter 12: The Resurrections

The Scriptures speak of three kinds of resurrection. 1. NATIONAL. This refers to Israel who are now nationally dead and buried in the "Graveyard of the Nations," but who are to be revived and restored to their own land. Ho 6:1-2. See the Chapter on "The Jews."

2. SPIRITUAL. This refers to those who are spiritually dead in "Trespasses and Sins." Eph 2:1-6; 5:14; Ro 6:11. This is a "Present Resurrection" and is going on continually. Every time a soul is "born again" there is a passing from "death" unto "life," a "Spiritual Resurrection." Joh 5:24.

3. PHYSICAL. This is of the dead body. The "Spirit" of man does not die, it goes back to God who gave it. All that goes into the grave is the body, and all that can come out of the grave is the body. See the Chapter on the "Spirit World."

THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY

Jesus clearly and distinctly taught a resurrection "from the grave."

"Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good unto the `Resurrection of LIFE,' and they that have done evil unto the `Resurrection of DAMNATION.'" Joh 5:28-29.

Here Jesus teaches the resurrection of both the "Righteous" and the "Wicked." The Apostle Paul taught the same thing.

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the Dead, both of the just (justified), and of the Unjust (unjustified)." Ac 24:15.

"For as in Adam all die (physically), even so in Christ shall all be made alive (physically)." 1Co 15:22.

That the Apostle means "physical" death, and "physical" resurrection here is clear, for it is the body, and not the spirit that he is discoursing about, and so the Universalist has no "proof text" here for the doctrine of "Universal Salvation."

These passages clearly teach that there is to be a resurrection of "all the dead," and if we did not look any further, we would be led to believe that the Righteous and the Wicked are not only to rise, but that they are to rise at the "same time." But when we turn to the Book of Revelation we find that the Righteous are to rise "before" the Wicked, and not simply precede them, but there is a space of a 1000 years between the two Resurrections. Re 20:4-5.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them."

This refers to the saints of the First Resurrection, who, represented by the "Four and Twenty Elders" of Re 4:4, are seen seated on thrones surrounding the Throne of God.

"And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped The Beast, neither His Image, neither had received His Mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they LIVED and Reigned With Christ a THOUSAND YEARS."

These are the "Tribulation Saints." John first saw them in their "martyred" condition (as souls), then he saw them rise from the dead (they lived again), and they, with the First Resurrection Saints, reigned with Christ a Thousand Years.

"But the rest of the dead (the wicked), lived not again until the `Thousand Years' were finished."

The rest of the verse-- "This is the `First Resurrection,'" refers not to the "rest of the dead," but to those in verse 4, who lived and reigned with Christ for a 1000 years, for:

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the First Resurrection. on such the Second Death (the doom of the Wicked, Re 20:14-15), hath no power, but they shall be Priests of God and of Christ, and shall Reign With Him a THOUSAND YEARS." Re 20:6.

That the Dead are to rise in different bands or cohorts, with an "interval of time" between, is beautifully brought out in 1Co 15:22-24.

"For as in Adam all die (physically), even so in Christ shall all be made alive (physically). But every man in his own order."

The word translated "order" is a military expression, and means a band, cohort, brigade or division of an army. Paul then gives the order:

1. "Christ the First Fruits."

2. "Afterward they that Are Christ's At His Coming."

3. "Then cometh The End."

Now we know that between "Christ the First Fruits," and they that "are Christ's at His Coming," there has already been nearly 1900 years, and as we have seen there will be 1000 years between the resurrection of those that "are Christ's at His Coming" and the "Wicked dead," therefore there is not to be a simultaneous resurrection of the Righteous and the Wicked. Already there has been an "OUT Resurrection" from "among the dead." When Jesus expired on the Cross "the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many BODIES OF THE SAINTS which slept AROSE, and came out of their graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION (they could not precede Him), and WENT INTO THE HOLY CITY (Jerusalem), AND APPEARED TO MANY." Mt 27:50-53. They with Jesus made up the "FIRST FRUITS," and they are now in their resurrection bodies with Him in glory. See Chart The Resurrections.

It has been objected that the passage in Re 20:4-5, is the "only" place in the Bible where a "length of time" is given between the resurrection of the Righteous and the Wicked, and that it is not fair to base such an important fact upon a single statement found in such a symbolic Book. But we do not have to depend on Re 20:4-6 to prove that there is to be an "out" Resurrection "from among the dead." There are a number of passages referring to the resurrection of the dead that are unexplainable only on the supposition that there is a "time space" between the resurrection of the Righteous and the Wicked.

In the reply that Jesus made to the Sudducees in answer to their question as to whose wife the woman would be in the next world who had had seven husbands in this, He said--

"They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (Age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage; neither can they die any more (Second Death); for they are equal unto the angels; and are the `Children of God' being the children of THE (out) Resurrection." Lu 20:35-36.

This is a very important statement. The use of the Greek word "Aion," translated "world," but which means "Age," shows that Jesus is speaking of a "class of dead" who are to be raised "before" the next or "Millennial Age," and that those thus raised can "die no more," there is no "Second Death" for them. Why? Because they are "equal unto the angels" and are the "Children of God," having been "born again," and are the "Children of THE Resurrection," the "Out FROM AMONG The Dead" or FIRST RESURRECTION, for only the "Children" of the "First Resurrection" shall live again "before" the Millennium.

In Lu 14:14 Jesus speaks of a "special" resurrection that He calls the Resurrection of the "JUST." This is an "Out Resurrection" from "among the dead," and is only for the "Justified," and must refer to the "First" Resurrection.

The writer to the Hebrews (Heb 11:35) speaks of a "better" Resurrection, and it is a significant fact that the Apostles preached through Jesus the Resurrection "from the dead." Not the Resurrection "of" the dead, that they always believed, but the Resurrection "from among" the dead, that was a "New Doctrine."

There is no question but that Paul believed in the resurrection "of" the dead, and that he expected to rise "some time," but in his letter to the Philippians (Php 3:11) he expresses the hope that he might "attain unto `THE' resurrection of the dead." Paul must therefore have had in mind some "special" Resurrection. What Paul meant is clear when we turn to 1Th 4:15-17, where he speaks of the resurrection of the "dead in Christ" and "translation of the living saints," at the Second Coming of the Lord, and as Christ is to come back to usher in the Millennium, then that event must "precede" the Millennium, and be an "Out Resurrection from among the dead," for the "rest of the dead" live not again until the 1000 years "are finished."

But the resurrection of the Righteous and the Wicked is not only to be different as to "time" but as to CHARACTER. They that have done "good" (the Righteous) shall rise unto the "Resurrection of LIFE," while they that have done "evil" (the Wicked) shall rise unto the "Resurrection of DAMNATION." Joh 5:28-29. And we read in Re 20:12-15, that those who are raised at the Second Resurrection, or the "Resurrection of Damnation," must appear at the "GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT," and that their names shall not be found written in the "Book of Life," and they shall be cast into the "Lake of Fire," which is the "SECOND DEATH."

 

[bibleberean]

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[bibleberean]

To deny the resurrection of the body is to deny the gospel.

Believing all the gospel is essential to salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The resurrection was physical. Jesus body will die no more.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Adam's body was meant to be immortal. Death has been conquered but
death itself still has power over the physical body until the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

During the thousand year reign death will still be present until the very end.

Revelation 20:13-15 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Adam was meant to be immortal. The only way he could die was to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There was no death until Adam sinned.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

[Asimov]

I'm withdrawing from this stupid exchange. I don't wish to read through reams and reams of quotes that are too vague to have anything but multiple interpretations.

 

[Sophistress]

Yes, I think you may have gone a bit over the top with the quotes bibleberean. It's very difficult to address a single point when you barrage your debater with quotes, many of which having little or no relevence to the original debate.

 

[Quath]

I wonder if there was cancer in the Garden. After all if there were sunlight, there was radiation. Radiation could knock out components of DNA and cause cells to replicate without stopping. So was there cancer or were the laws of physics so different back then or did God just heal any person or animal that suffered radiation damage?

Quath

 

[bibleberean]

I wonder if there was cancer in the Garden. After all if there were sunlight, there was radiation. Radiation could knock out components of DNA and cause cells to replicate without stopping. So was there cancer or were the laws of physics so different back then or did God just heal any person or animal that suffered radiation damage?

Quath

You are lying. You are not wondering if there was cancer in the Garden.

You don't believe there was a Garden or that God created it.

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

 

[Asimov]

You are lying. You are not wondering if there was cancer in the Garden.

I think he just wrote that...so you're wrong.

You don't believe there was a Garden or that God created it.

I know Quath doesn't believe that, but assume much??

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

yea, you missed out the last part "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. But swamp him with useless Scripture quotes and pretend it means something."

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

I wonder if there was cancer in the Garden. After all if there were sunlight, there was radiation. Radiation could knock out components of DNA and cause cells to replicate without stopping. So was there cancer or were the laws of physics so different back then or did God just heal any person or animal that suffered radiation damage?

Quath

You are lying. You are not wondering if there was cancer in the Garden.

You don't believe there was a Garden or that God created it.

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Someone doesn't understand the concept of suspension of disbelief, and their name rhymes with diblederean.

 

[bibleberean]

I wonder if there was cancer in the Garden. After all if there were sunlight, there was radiation. Radiation could knock out components of DNA and cause cells to replicate without stopping. So was there cancer or were the laws of physics so different back then or did God just heal any person or animal that suffered radiation damage?

Quath

You are lying. You are not wondering if there was cancer in the Garden.

You don't believe there was a Garden or that God created it.

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Someone doesn't understand the concept of suspension of disbelief, and their name rhymes with diblederean.

I know someone who's name rhymes with diblederean too.

He understands strait forward questions.

I love that guy!

 

[Quath]

You are lying. You are not wondering if there was cancer in the Garden.

You don't believe there was a Garden or that God created it.

Ummm. I hope I have not given the impression that I am a creationist. I just thought it would be interesting to introduce this concept. It would just be boring if I said "Nope. Doesn't exist. Lets's move on."

What I am interested in is how creationists deal with such issues. So do any creationists have answers about cancer was in the garden?

Quath

 

[bibleberean]

You are lying. You are not wondering if there was cancer in the Garden.

You don't believe there was a Garden or that God created it.

Ummm. I hope I have not given the impression that I am a creationist. I just thought it would be interesting to introduce this concept. It would just be boring if I said "Nope. Doesn't exist. Lets's move on."

What I am interested in is how creationists deal with such issues. So do any creationists have answers about cancer was in the garden?

Quath

Nope. I know you are not a creationist. It would not have been boring if you just straight up asked, "how do you explain the fact that the rays from the sun can cause cancer and was it present in the garden"?

Why would that be boring?

 

[Quath]

Nope. I know you are not a creationist. It would not have been boring if you just straight up asked, "how do you explain the fact that the rays from the sun can cause cancer and was it present in the garden"?

Why would that be boring?

Well, I just thought it would be more boring in presentation. I thought it came across cleaner if I didn't show doubt in the Garden story itself but in the explanation of the events within it.

So what do you think? Was there cancer in the Garden?

Quath

 

[bibleberean]

Nope. I know you are not a creationist. It would not have been boring if you just straight up asked, "how do you explain the fact that the rays from the sun can cause cancer and was it present in the garden"?

Why would that be boring?

Well, I just thought it would be more boring in presentation. I thought it came across cleaner if I didn't show doubt in the Garden story itself but in the explanation of the events within it.

So what do you think? Was there cancer in the Garden?

Quath

No, there wasn't any cancer in the garden. There was no disease at all.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I wasn't there. I am only 55 . (even though some people say "I get old fast") However the world was not under a curse until after the sin of Adam.

I don't believe Adam could get sick or die in the garden. He was created in the image of God. He was dead in sin the moment he listened to his wife and ate the fruit with her.

The wages of sin is death Romans 3:23. Adam began to die physically at that point.

The earth became cursed because of Adam.

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Genesis 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

No cancer no disease until this point. Sin brought death and suffering.

One day this will not be the case. No more death or suffering. It will be even better at the end than at the beginning.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[Quath]

So if there was no cancer, do you think that physics were different or that the human body did not use DNA for celluar reproduction or some other explanation? Or is it just a mystery of God?

Quath

 

[B]

Quote;
''I don't believe Adam could get sick or die in the garden. He was created in the image of God.''

I have a question dude, and I don't mean to be crude. If Adam was created in the likeness of God, that means that God had testicles. Testicles are purely for reproduction. Who has God been shacking up with?

 

[bibleberean]

Quote;
''I don't believe Adam could get sick or die in the garden. He was created in the image of God.''

I have a question dude, and I don't mean to be crude. If Adam was created in the likeness of God, that means that God had testicles. Testicles are purely for reproduction. Who has God been shacking up with?

You are crude and that was a shallow and disrespectful statement for a person in a Christian forum no doubt about that.

Jesus said this.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

God is spirit so Jesus did not mean that His physical body looked exactly like God. It meant that Jesus in His life and purpose was exactly the way God was.

Adam was created to have fellowship with God. After Adam sinned that fellowship was broken.

Those of us who are saved will one day be like our Father as well.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Adam would have lived in perfect health forever if he would not have succumbed to sin.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[B]

See, it was questions like these that could not be answered properly and logically that helped me realise that christianity was one big story.

God has balls or he doesn't. Simple as that. :roll:

 

[Featherbop]

No, God does not have those. I'm 99% sure.

It's more of a likeness than image, and even image may not emcompass the whole being of God.

I'm sure there were adsditions to humans, as well as somethings not given of God's.

Now, as for cancer in Eden, I am not an authority on that, so I can't say for sure, but i don't think they were there long enough to get cancer.

But, but, if they could get it, then I would think their bodies disposed of it quickly.

If it wasn't possible, then perhaps they had something that prevented themfrom getting cancers, or from dying from it.

 

[Asimov]

If it wasn't possible, then perhaps they had something that prevented themfrom getting cancers, or from dying from it.

Jesus strength sunblock?