Debating with atheists? Should we?

[Tri Unity]

I also want to know why you advocate creation, and such... Maybe we should make another thread?

I would be happy to talk science with you in another thread. BTW, I was only playing around with you. I didn't mean to offend you if I spoke down to you. I have elephant feet at times.

 

[TRussert]

Faith is not evidence.

If I have unconditional faith in wizards, is that evidence of wizards?

Call me A2, its what my friends call me.

I do not choose to believe anymore. I need to be convinced of its truth. I think choosing your beliefs is not something you should do.

The reason why people think they know ( I don't claim I know) that tomorrow will apear is because nothing has happened before.

There is nothing to indicate that it won't happen, so we can assume it will continue on like normal.

Hello A2 (thank you for that BTW ),

On this we disagree, for faith is evidence.

If you had a sincere faith in wizards, then yes, that would be evidence of them for you. There are people who do believe in wizards even though there is no proof of them.

The is no proof of evolution, yet many claim there is an abundance of evidence. Why? They have faith in that evidence.

A2, life is nothing but the opportunity for us each to make choices, based upon what we each find evidence for, what we have faith in.
You are where you are now because of the choices you have made.

Now think about what you typed above about choosing not to believe, but needing to be convinced. How can anyone here do that when you have already decided not to believe?

Maybe you just aren't ready to believe yet. We each are on a journey. We are learning what we want to have in our lives and what we don't. No one knows what tomorrow will bring, so perhaps
it will be best for you to keep questioning and see what happens.

I can guarantee you this, while you may have given up on your faith in Christ, He most definitely has not given up on you.

You don't have to respond to this. I realize you will only focus on what you object to here. I would however request that from time to time you do reflect on our correspondence.

I do hope and pray I get to meet you in the next life, in God's eternal life.

Sincerely
Cheers A2

 

[cleanfreak]

Faith is not evidence.

+1
This is a true statement and I was skeptical once.

However, there have been things in my life that have happened after I trusted in this faith and prayed. These prayers were answered and in the meantime this also builds your faith.

The things I asked for were very specific and science nor any other means could explain. These things I speak of are not just happenstance and I only can only describe them as a God answered prayer.

I am sure their are many here with similar situation and that is why they so firmly believe in this faith we speak of.

I will admit, if it were not for me trying and if the answers did not come, I would be in the same boat as you are.......but at least I tried as I was desperate.

 

[Atothetheist]

But faith is not solely a religious word. The example you've highlighted in bold shows faith being present in science. If you do not have faith in the scientific process and believe that the world can be made sense of (belief is an intrinsic part of faith) you will not be a scientist for 5 minutes. As Paul Davis puts it:

“Even the most atheistic scientist accepts as an act of faith that the universe is not absurd, that there is a rational basis to physical existence manifested as a lawlike order in nature that is at least in part comprehensible to us. So science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological worldview.â€

This faith is justified by the evidence. But belief is part of faith as demonstrated in the above definitions. As I've shown, faith in God is faith in a person. This is what Christians mean by faith in God. Again, the definitions above show different contexts including a religious one but note it does not say that religious faith is belief without evidence. Indeed the example given for the "belief without evidence" is a science one that the hypothesis would be proven to be true. The example for the religious one t mentions trust and as I asked before, do you trust someone on the basis of no evidence?

If you look at the definitions for fides from which the word faith is derived you see evidence explicitly mentioned. So the question really is what is the evidence that makes faith in God justified in the same manner of what makes my faith in my fiance justified? Or the faith in my friends justified?

We both have beliefs; you believe there isn't a God, I believe there is.

I never made the claim Faith is only a religious word. I was just outlieing that when we ( atheists) talk about having no faith in a Deity, that is the definition we use.

There is no scientific evidence that can be applied to the deity, yet you still believe in Him, thus you have faith, and we do not.

I don't believe there is no God, I don't believe there IS one.

 

[Atothetheist]

+1
This is a true statement and I was skeptical once.

However, there have been things in my life that have happened after I trusted in this faith and prayed. These prayers were answered and in the meantime this also builds your faith.

The things I asked for were very specific and science nor any other means could explain. These things I speak of are not just happenstance and I only can only describe them as a God answered prayer.

I am sure their are many here with similar situation and that is why they so firmly believe in this faith we speak of.

I will admit, if it were not for me trying and if the answers did not come, I would be in the same boat as you are.......but at least I tried as I was desperate.

What did you ask for? What could possibly defy normal science that you needed to be answered?

The sun to stand still? Or maybe for it to move? For you to fly?

What exactly did you ask that made it one hundred percent certain that it couldn't have happened any other way.

 

[Danus]

The type of faith we describe as Christian faith, is more than just a belief in God. It's more than just faith in faith, or believing for the sake of believing without evidence. I would never suggest anyone simply believe in God with no basis for that belief. However, this is how I describe Christian faith to my children.

Recently I was reading a bit of Romans to my 9 year old and we came to this verse. Romans 1: 17, 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

"What is faith?"; I asked her. "I can't quite explain it"; she says.

We where sitting on her bed at the time, and I said; "do you have faith that this bed holds us up three feet off the ground?";

My daughter: yes, because I know it does. I can see it and I know it.

Me: You know it because you have seen it, and you have experienced it, but what if it was invisible, and you did not see the bed. An invisible bed.

My daughter: Well if I could not see it then I would have to rely on my experiences with the invisible bed holding me up.

Me: True, but if you experienced the invisible bed holding you up over time you'd run and jump up and down on it just like I tell you not to do now, right?

My daughter: Sure!

Me: What if your friend came over and had never seen your invisible bed and you said; "hey lets go jump on my bed!", and you ran in here to the invisible bed and began jumping on it. Would your friend just do the same?

My daughter: probably not. If she's never seen or experienced it, she would not know what to think.

That is what faith in God is like to the believer and the unbeliever. the faith that a believer has is not baseless. It's real and it comes from experiencing God. The unbeliever doe s not see it because they have not experienced it, and they have a hard time trusting in what they do not know.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Should we debate with atheists?

No.

Only talk to them if they are humble. Look for signs of humility.

If you try to talk to those who do not have humble and seeking hearts you will get hurt when they "turn and tear you to pieces." (Matt. 7:6 NASB), just as Jesus said will happen. Remember, they are playing by the world's rules, not God's. They have no reason to be polite and respectful...or even to tell the truth. In fact, my experience has shown the non-humble unbeliever and atheist to be exactly what Jesus said the Pharisees were: children of the devil who speak their father's language, the language of deceit. Don't get entangled in their schemes.

Generally speaking they are angry, defensive, manipulative liars...do what Jesus said. Stay away from them.

(If any atheist or unbeliever doesn't fit in that category then I'm NOT talking about you.)

Sorry, but Jethro Bodine calls 'em likes he sees 'em. I've learned the hard way you only talk to humble people who don't take offense so easily and can talk calmly and rationally, and who don't have to hate and attack you just because you believe the Bible and want to live accordingly. The truly sad and pathetic part about it is, they are probably looking for you.

 

[Tri Unity]

Generally speaking they are angry, defensive, manipulative liars...do what Jesus said. Stay away from them.

Today "atheism" is a trend, a fad. People say they are atheist without even knowing what it means. We must be careful not to lump every "atheist" in with the same dirty bath water.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Today "atheism" is a trend, a fad. People say they are atheist without even knowing what it means. We must be careful not to lump every "atheist" in with the same dirty bath water.

I had noticed that, too.

Some will say, "I'm an atheist", and, "I think God is...", in the same breath. I usually restrain myself from pointing out that they are not really atheist.

Most unbelievers I've heard speak about religion are actually agnostic.

True atheists, to me, have made a very definite decision that there is no god of any kind. That hardened determination is what I am saying we are to steer clear of in accordance with what Christ taught about sharing Biblical truths. And equally applicable to the hardened unbeliever and agnostic, too.

 

[WIP]

Today "atheism" is a trend, a fad. People say they are atheist without even knowing what it means. We must be careful not to lump every "atheist" in with the same dirty bath water.

I think the same holds true when it comes to christianity today (lower case intentional).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think the same holds true when it comes to christianity today (lower case intentional).

Very true. And since I, by God's grace, don't act like them, I'm not offended when unbelievers and atheists speak negatively about them...for I know they're not talking about me.

 

[SpagLard]

Should we debate with atheists?

of course we should.
well maybe not anyone too uninformed about what an atheist beleives,
but anyone who can hold his ground and explain his/her faith certainly should !

Not wanting / shunning debate is a sure sign of weakness / fear / stupidity,
anyone should be able to stand up and defend what they believe in when challenged.
And Atheists can be very challenging...

 

[ColdBlooded]

Why not?

It's comes with the position of majority. You belong the the largest group of theists who claim absolute knowledge about our creation and existence, of course you will be met with questions and scrutiny. It's a heavy burden to bear but you can be assured that you are correct and everyone else is absolutely incorrect.

Generally speaking they are angry, defensive, manipulative liars

Well that's quite a massive generalization. From what source of credible, unbiased, and well tested knowledge did you draw such a conclusion from?
I wouldn't be surprised that atheists tend to be defensive, considering such massive scrutiny that will befall them when they separate themselves from the bronze age ideology.

Asserting your ideals against what is generally known and supported by science is required if your ideals are to be considered true. You, as the once asserting a competing theory, must act twofold in both pointing out the flaws in the opponents theory while maintaining an intellectually sound theory yourself.

Your assertion must be both sound from scrutiny and a better theory when it comes to what is closer to the truth as we perceive it.

This process is long and arduous but is designed to maintain the high standards
of the Scientific Method. This is why theories such as Evolution, The Big Bang, and Heliocentric are scientifically and logically sound.

As a theist who has ideals that conflict with this well tested, scientific knowledge, you must prove with absolute certainty that the conflicting ideals are wrong and that your theory is correct.

 

[Tri Unity]

True atheists, to me, have made a very definite decision that there is no god of any kind. That hardened determination is what I am saying we are to steer clear of in accordance with what Christ taught about sharing Biblical truths. And equally applicable to the hardened unbeliever and agnostic, too.

I agree. I think it is dangerous to us in ways we do not realise when we are young in the faith. It's like smoking; it stunts our growth

 

[WIP]

Not wanting / shunning debate is a sure sign of weakness / fear / stupidity,

I respectfully disagree. Did Christ debate with unbelievers? They tried many times to drag him into debates but he would not let them.

 

[txgirlmaddy]

Yes we should debate atheists. But we should also be kind and show them love because by showing love, we are really being the best representatives for God. Lots have come in and out of my Church and I've debated with some of them, but I always try to just be a loving friend in Christ and invite them out with my friends to lunch or something. Thats the way I wanna deal with it.

 

[Chris1981]

Should we debate with atheists? Should we try to intellectually make them broaden there horizion?

Yes, yes and yes, please do! I am an atheist, and that is precicely the reason I am here - to broaden my horizon. I want to learn everything I can, not to cause trouble or arguments, but to expand my knowledge. How can I reasonably talk to others if I don't understand the facts. It's that simple.

So please debate, chat or even just send me a string of abuse (providing you make some kind of point) I will gladly respond and hope to understand and learn from even anyone who will give me the time.

 

[txgirlmaddy]

Yes, yes and yes, please do! I am an atheist, and that is precicely the reason I am here - to broaden my horizon. I want to learn everything I can, not to cause trouble or arguments, but to expand my knowledge. How can I reasonably talk to others if I don't understand the facts. It's that simple.

So please debate, chat or even just send me a string of abuse (providing you make some kind of point) I will gladly respond and hope to understand and learn from even anyone who will give me the time.

okay very cool. i believe in God for lots oof reasons, mainly because I was born christian but also because take a look around you. the people places in your life, do you really think this happened by accident? Smell a flower. Really? No higher power in the world? Just look at how we are blessed. This is what I always say. But ya, I totally agree. We need to debate but also show our love to atheists, this isn't about judgement, and I hope I am a good representative of God for you. I want to show love, not judgement or despair.

 

[Chris1981]

Me cool? I don't often get that

I believe that the people I meet, I meet through a series of random events. I met my partner through one such moment. Maybe as we met it was ferimones or the number of things we had in common that brought us closer... The smell of flowers? I put that down to evolution, The flower has evolved that smell to attract pollinators to further their genetic line. I'm sure this is an all too familiar story, but thats where i stand at the moment at least.

 

[Tri Unity]

I am an atheist, and that is precicely the reason I am here - to broaden my horizon. I want to learn everything I can, not to cause trouble or arguments, but to expand my knowledge.

I commend you on your openness to learn. May God open doors for you.

Blessings.
Tri