Defending the Trinitarian Creed (Belief-Doctrine)

[Butch5]

Three individuals cannot be one individual, it's not a mystery,

Take three glasses of pure water.

Label them 1,2 and 3.

Pour the three glasses of water into one pitcher.

Now define for me within the pitcher, glasses 1,2 and 3, where they are.

It's one body of water.


The Spirit is likened to water.


JLB

Hi JBL,

I agree the Spirit is likened to water in the Scriptures. However, if you pour the three glasses of water into a pitcher you no longer have three glasses of water. This modern understanding of the Trinity didn't come into existence until the time of Augustine. The Nicene creed shows how the earliest Christians understood the Trinity, they didn't have this idea that three being are one being. They understood there was one God the Father, just as Paul said. They understood that Jesus was the Son of God begotten of God before the creation and that the HS proceeds from both the Father and the Son.

Matthew 12:18 KJV
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Hi Deb,

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, why did you post this passage?

 

[Deborah13]

Hi JBL,

I agree the Spirit is likened to water in the Scriptures. However, if you pour the three glasses of water into a pitcher you no longer have three glasses of water. This modern understanding of the Trinity didn't come into existence until the time of Augustine. The Nicene creed shows how the earliest Christians understood the Trinity, they didn't have this idea that three being are one being. They understood there was one God the Father, just as Paul said. They understood that Jesus was the Son of God begotten of God before the creation and that the HS proceeds from both the Father and the Son.

Matthew 12:18 KJV
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Hi Deb,

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, why did you post this passage?

Oh sorry Butch, you're not a mind reader, are you. I wanted your opinion about what this verse says as to the trinty.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Do you notice how the Trinity isn't mentioned throughout the Old Testament? That should put up a red flag on your "Trinity".

You're not thinking straight. Go ahead and defend your bogus concept of a Trinity.

This is the Age of the Internet. The "Trinity" is done, as arguments for an exclusively-human authorship of the Bible rapidly reach the masses.

 

[teddy trueblood]

Do you notice how the Trinity isn't mentioned throughout the Old Testament? That should put up a red flag on your "Trinity".

You should also notice that the trinity is not mentioned (nor described) throughout the NT. The closest to it is the late addition to scripture found in the KJV at 1 John 5:7. This has been proven to be a spurious addition by numerous trinitarian scholars. One has to wonder why the copyist who made it up felt the necessity to do so!

 

[farouk]

Do you notice how the Trinity isn't mentioned throughout the Old Testament? That should put up a red flag on your "Trinity".

You should also notice that the trinity is not mentioned (nor described) throughout the NT. The closest to it is the late addition to scripture found in the KJV at 1 John 5:7. This has been proven to be a spurious addition by numerous trinitarian scholars. One has to wonder why the copyist who made it up felt the necessity to do so!

...but the truth to which the word Trinity refers - God in Three Persons - is overwhelmingly present in the Bible, especially the New Testament. Not least at the end of Matthew 28, John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 thru 17, John's First Epistle, etc.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Defending the Trinitarian Creed (Belief-Doctrine)

Do you notice how the Trinity isn't mentioned throughout the Old Testament? That should put up a red flag on your "Trinity".

You're not thinking straight. Go ahead and defend your bogus concept of a Trinity.

This is the Age of the Internet. The "Trinity" is done, as arguments for an exclusively-human authorship of the Bible rapidly reach the masses.

We are not proving Trinity here. It's already been proven. The thread is about Trinity V.S other Monotheistic Doctrines. So, the Trinity being bogus or not is irrelevant.

You should also notice that the trinity is not mentioned (nor described) throughout the NT. The closest to it is the late addition to scripture found in the KJV at 1 John 5:7. This has been proven to be a spurious addition by numerous trinitarian scholars. One has to wonder why the copyist who made it up felt the necessity to do so!

The Thread is about Trinity compared to other Monotheism Doctrines. If you have a doctrine that you feel better describes Monotheism, then share it with us. Putting down one, to make "what?" stand out is not the best way to go about this.

...but the truth to which the word Trinity refers - God in Three Persons

No, No, No..................... It's 3 persons in order the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person that are God, of God. These 3 persons are ONE, not One in 3 persons. Just like the scripture in John states. You just quoted a Modelist doctrine which I am trying to compare the Trinity Doctrine with.

It gets confusing............ I posted part of the actual Nicean somewhere up a few post. I attempted to write this without using any one Trinity version, but got busted on using each are Co-Equal which is not actually part of the original, but added by some denomination later.

Mike.

 

[Randy]

Do you notice how the Trinity isn't mentioned throughout the Old Testament? That should put up a red flag on your "Trinity".

You're not thinking straight. Go ahead and defend your bogus concept of a Trinity.

This is the Age of the Internet. The "Trinity" is done, as arguments for an exclusively-human authorship of the Bible rapidly reach the masses.

How do you answer this question as asked by Jesus? "Who do you say that I am?"

Randy

 

[Randy]

@Brother Mike I have a good question for ya. Do you think..

a) the son manifested himself into flesh or
b) god the father manifested the son into flesh

Blessings - Dave

I am defending the Trinity Doctrine here!!!!

Also -

Was Jesus God's Son, Before He became flesh?

Same to you JBL, I am defending the Trinity Doctrine here.

The doctrine Clearly states that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are 3 different persons. The son of God has always been the Son of God, with or without flesh. The Father has always been the Father and the Holy Spirit has always been the Holy Spirit. These 3 bear record and witness of heaven and all things made by and through them being ONE GOD.

Mike.

God is Spirit. How can the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Holy Spirit or Spirit of Truth be different then the mind of the Spirit? The one who sits on the throne. The Father. So its clear the Father didn't give birth to the HS as its His own Spirit and in that context that Spirit is the Fathers to give and take. The HS speaks what He hears from the will of the mind of the Spirit as in, "those that listen and learn from the Father go to the Son". I don't see any language that states the HS has a different mind. The language I read is "mind of the Spirit" The HS searches the deep thoughts of God as our spirit knows/searches our mind and thoughts. The Father can keep knowledge to Himself such as the day and hour of the 2nd coming that even the Son didn't know but I don't know how the Father could keep that from His own Spirit who searches the deep thoughts of God? Whats clear is Jesus didn't know the day and hour. I bet the HS does but won't tell because the HS conveys the Will of the mind of the Spirit.

Jesus called the Father the One true God. Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit "MY SPIRIT". If Jesus is not a offspring of the Father (as I read Firstborn of all creation) and has always been and has always been God how then do you believe in One God? Using mystery to defend your position weakens (not strengthens) your case. I assume from the point Jesus was before the world began that the Fullness was in Him and a Jesus apart from that fullness has never existed. The Father is in Him always and forever as Jesus always does what pleases the Father.

Its One God in all including the One and Only Son who was also given the fullness as in "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" That makes Jesus a image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. In that context Jesus is all that the Father is. (God) Jesus has always been the Son and in that context He is not God. It is the Father in Him that is God. We do baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit as Jesus instructed.

I maintain this position to the question is Jesus God?

He never dies as He lives forever by the Living Father.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Start with what you know to be true. There is only One God and Jesus called the Father His God and our God, His Father and our Father.

 

[JLB]

We do baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit as Jesus instructed.

What is the name of the Father, that we baptize in?

Father is not His name but His title.

What is His name?




JLB

 

[JLB]

We believe in one God the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

This is not a scriptural statement!

The mystery part, is how is there only ONE GOD? It's in the doctrine that it's a mystery, so you can't say the Doctrine is wrong, because it already told you.

31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32

How does the two become "one flesh".

The two are made one in the offspring.

The offspring contains both the Father and the Mother.

The offspring contains the "fullness" of the Father and the Mother as well as Himself.


This is a great Mystery concerning Christ and the Church.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

I maintain this position to the question is Jesus God?

He never dies as He lives forever by the Living Father.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Start with what you know to be true. There is only One God and Jesus called the Father His God and our God, His Father and our Father.

Jesus has always been the Son and in that context He is not God.

Randy, Satan was called god, we were called god.............. So in any context Jesus is also God, but the son of God.

The trinity Doctrine states each person is God of God. So that makes a 3 persons God according to the doctrine.

Whats clear is Jesus didn't know the day and hour. I bet the HS does but won't tell because the HS conveys the Will of the mind of the Spirit.

Jesus does not have to know. He is the 2nd person of the trinity. The 1st person of the trinity knows. No contradiction here.

That makes Jesus a image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being.

Even as He is, so are we in this World. That makes us an exact representation of God, (Or should once we all come to the fullness of Christ and grow up) When people ask us things about God, they ask because we represent God. I am not sure how this is related to Trinity though.

as I read Firstborn of all creation

Well, sort of........ He was the firstborn of many.............. our number is in there somewhere. It almost sound as if this was before man.........

and has always been and has always been God how then do you believe in One God? Using mystery to defend your position weakens (not strengthens) your case.

??????????? We are not defending what I believe, or anyone else. We are defending the Trinity Creed, and the Trinity creed clearly says there is just ONE GOD. If you don't understand how 3 persons God of God can be One God, then the Creed tells you that it's a Puzzle (Methodist) Something finite man can't understand (Southern Baptist) a Mystery of Christian faith (Catholic)

Since the Doctrine itself covers your question, then the Doctrine is solid. It's already made provisions for this questioning.

If you are a Polytheist and believe Jesus is fully God, just like His Father, and been with the Father from the start as Jesus stated of the glory his father gave to him before the foundation of the World and not to be just slammed into some big ball of goo finally called "GOD" then your making the wrong argument here. I am defending the Trinity Doctrine over other monotheistic doctrines.

This is not a scriptural statement!

Pay attention............. It's in the Niacean Creed. What does being scriptural have to do with it?
Jesus never made himself to be creator. His father made everything for and through (Because of) His son Jesus and gave him all things by which we are Joint heirs to. That is scripture and what the Creed states. It don't matter though, we are defending the Trinity Doctrine.

Mike.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Pay attention............. It's in the Niacean Creed. What does being scriptural have to do with it?
Jesus never made himself to be creator. His father made everything for and through (Because of) His son Jesus and gave him all things by which we are Joint heirs to. That is scripture and what the Creed states. It don't matter though, we are defending the Trinity Doctrine.

Mike.

So, God helps men make books that will ultimately become His Word. And, just for the lulz, He makes sure that these books aren't absolutely clear, so that different people interpret them differently. Then, He is present during the creation of the Nicene Creed so that He can clear up some of the confusion. But, He still leaves some of the confusion, because . . . well . . . what fun would it be without some confusion?

I get it. Thanks.

 

[Brother Mike]

So, God helps men make books that will ultimately become His Word. And, just for the lulz, He makes sure that these books aren't absolutely clear, so that different people interpret them differently. Then, He is present during the creation of the Nicene Creed so that He can clear up some of the confusion. But, He still leaves some of the confusion, because . . . well . . . what fun would it be without some confusion?

I get it. Thanks.

That is pretty much how it worked. I am not sure God gave them the Nicene Creed, it might have been something they made up. However, The Doctrine of the Trinity (The right one) covers all scriptures, Makes Jesus subject to the Father, and gives us ONE God only to believe in. Then it covers the (How the heck 3 God's of God can just be One God) with the clause of the Mystery. So the Creed itself covers all it's tracks.

Mike.

 

[Randy]

If you don't understand how 3 persons God of God can be One God, then the Creed tells you that it's a Puzzle

I was steered to Jesus from birth but show me a creed and I'll search the scriptures to see if its true. What I found I stated. Jesus is the Son (firstborn)

Randy

 

[Brother Mike]

I was steered to Jesus from birth but show me a creed and I'll search the scriptures to see if its true. What I found I stated. Jesus is the Son (firstborn)

Randy

Why am I having a hard time getting this point across. We are not examining if the Creed is true or not true. That is not the important thing here. Now if we had a thread to discuss the Trinity Doctrine as being true, that would be different. Right now the thread assumes that it is true.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Why am I having a hard time getting this point across.

It's that darn special female Greek noun teaching thing, coming back to bite you bro.

You know the one...


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

It's that darn special female Greek noun teaching thing, coming back to bite you bro.

You know the one...

Can't I just defend the Trinity Doctrine here? Anything wrong with that? Many people defend this Doctrine without going through the drama. Why can't it be like that for me?

Mike.

 

[Randy]

It's that darn special female Greek noun teaching thing, coming back to bite you bro.

You know the one...

Can't I just defend the Trinity Doctrine here? Anything wrong with that? Many people defend this Doctrine without going through the drama. Why can't it be like that for me?

Mike.

Defend a creed? Where lies the importance? I uphold Jesus as Lord and the Christ of God. There is no other name in one can be saved. Jesus is the way to the Father.

Jesus is not the deity. He is the Son. The fulness of the deity of God was pleased to dwell IN Him. Note that distinction. Father In Son. There is only One Spirit. We have that same Spirit in us sent in Jesus name. One God in all. That does not take away from Jesus. Jesus was not ashamed to state the truth that He is Gods Son and the Father is greater than Him. Why do you think Jesus has reverence and Love for the Father? Why do you think Jesus calls the Father His God even in REV? Why do you think Jesus received authority as opposed to being a God who always was and had that authority? Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne. Jesus serves in His Fathers house. Jesus remains in the Fathers love because He always does what pleases the Father. Not the other way around.

R.

 

[Brother Mike]

Defend a creed? Where lies the importance? I uphold Jesus as Lord and the Christ of God. There is no other name in one can be saved. Jesus is the way to the Father.

This thread Randy I am defending the Trinity Creed as Written by man. There are reasons behind this, a motive if you will. On another thread I might agree with you, but this thread I am sticking with the Trinity Creed as it is originally written with the thought and idea's behind it.

Mike.

 

[Randy]

Defend a creed? Where lies the importance? I uphold Jesus as Lord and the Christ of God. There is no other name in one can be saved. Jesus is the way to the Father.

This thread Randy I am defending the Trinity Creed as Written by man. There are reasons behind this, a motive if you will. On another thread I might agree with you, but this thread I am sticking with the Trinity Creed as it is originally written with the thought and idea's behind it.

Mike.

Now that is a mystery.

Jesus's message method was to just use truth. Many didn't like His answers but that didn't make His answers a lie. Follow Him.

Randy