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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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farouk
Member
- Nov 17, 2010
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I think, when we talk of the Trinity, it's good to remember that it's a doctrine that is in the Bible already, and not something that the church merely reads into it.
For example, we see it clearly at the end of Matthew 28, and in John's gospel, especially chapters 13 thru 17, in John's First Epistle, etc.
For example, we see it clearly at the end of Matthew 28, and in John's gospel, especially chapters 13 thru 17, in John's First Epistle, etc.
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Brother Mike
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- #23
This is why I made the post. Many claiming to believe in Trinity but they continually mix other non-trinitarian doctrines with it. Niacin or Anathansian is a matter or Wording and those that followed. We all know each is worded a bit different.
This Website whom a Certain Mod kept getting on me about speaking against the Trinity post this Websites TOS.
We believe in One God that Manifest himself in 3 different persons.
I have had a hard time trying to convey that, that is not anything close to the Trinity Doctrine.
This is wonderful and my point. The Trinity Doctrine already states it can't be explained. The Catholics called it the Mystery of faith. Southern Baptisted said it is not understandable by finite man. The Methodist in said it is a Puzzle of a sort.
That is the problem Modelist have. They get in their minds that somehow, someway it can be explained by scripture. It can't, because to explain it in scripture, you have to change the doctrine. If you keep the Doctrine, then it all lines up with every single scripture. It's been tested for hundreds of years, and no need to change it with some Modelist theory like God came down incarnate in the flesh. That is not Trinity and has many scripture contradictions. This is what makes the Trinity Doctrine so fascinating.
Who came down in the flesh? Jesus the Son of God, who is God.
Who does Jesus pray to? The Father, the 1st person in the Trinity who had a higher position than Jesus on earth at the time.
Who called down to the son saying I am well pleased? The 1st person called down to the 2nd person.
If there is only one God, why two thrones. There are two thrones because Jesus and the Father occupy them as One.
Who created everything? Jesus, (Word) God the father, with the Power of the 3rd person Holy Spirit. One God created everything. For everything was made by and through, being for Jesus with the Power of the Holy Spirit. One God.
No contradictions anywhere with the Trinity Doctrine.
How can 3 that are God just be one God????????
That is the mystery of Christian faith and must be revealed. Each are God, of God........ Niacin Council............. There are 3 doing different things, as One God.
The only thing left to explain with no contradictions is the Mystery of part, the Puzzle part, the thing finite man can not understand part. How does 3 God's become one. That part needs to be revealed by God, through faith.
It's those that try to explain it, it's they that beat up the Trinity Doctrine and become Modelist without even knowing it because they don't understand the doctrine.
It is an amazing Doctrine, and makes more sense than all the Oneness, and modelist theory's. That was the purpose of my post, to defend the Trinity Doctrine and leave no scripture contradictions.
Mike.
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
- 5,372
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I agree, that is not the Trinity doctrine, it is Modalism.
Hi Mike,
I understand what you're saying but I disagree that it is something that cannot be understood. The reason many call it a mystery and claim it cannot be understood is because the modern doctrine of the Trinity, the one in the Anthanasian creed is a contradiction. Three individuals cannot be one individual, it's not a mystery, it's a contradiction. The Scriptures are clear there is "One God, the Father" That is what the Scriptures say. There is one Lord the Son. The confusion comes into play with the word "God". The Greek word is "Theos" and it means deity. The Father is deity or divine, Jesus being of the same substance and the Son of the Father is also divine. The Anthanasian creed claims that the Father, Son, and HS are all coequal. That is "NOT" the understanding of the original Trinity doctrine, it is a later development that came along because later Christians didn't look to what was originally taught. Jesus said, "the Father is greater than I". That never has nor ever will change. The Father will always be the supreme being, the Son is always subject to the Father. Paul said,
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:5-6 KJV)
That the Father is always above the Son can be seen in Paul's words.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. (1Co 15:27 KJV)
Additionally, that the Father is supreme can be seen from Paul's words to Timothy when he says that the Father alone has immortality.
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1Ti 6:14-16 KJV)
I think what is so confusion to many is when people say one God in three persons. People look at the word "God" as a being and then try to conjure up how three beings can be one being, they can't. That is the contradiction. However, when we understand the word God as deity there is no problem. The Father, Son, and HS are all deity. In the majority of places in the NT that the word God appears is it referring to the Father, however, it is used of the Son one several occasions. If we understand the term as meaning deity instead of a being there is no confusion. Take for instance John 1.
KJV John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1 KJV)
If read it as deity there is no confusion. In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God (The Deity) and the word was God (deity). It makes perfect sense. There is no need for Scriptural gymnastic trying to fit three beings into one.
Here is the Nicene Creed, notice it does not say three persons are one God. It says the Son is true God from true God. It is speaking of essence or nature, not the same person.
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
- Nov 23, 2012
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Brother Mike
Guest
- Thread starter
- #26
I see where you coming from Butch...... I did use what the Niacin Creed uses. The 1st person Father, 2nd person Son, and 3rd person Holy Spirit in that order.
They are not coequal but by Nature God.
Theos just means any deity of uncertain affinity. Jesus even called us Theo's, but be glad i am not God and in charge of anything. Created like God, in God's image, immortal spirits, the offspring of God, each seed produces after it's own kind, born of the word.... We are also theos.........
but there is your problem. When you say the Word God, Christians get a silly look of confusion on their face. It's a class of something, not a person.
Still, The Trinity Doctrine gets beat up by those that claim to believe it. Those that say they believe it don't even know what it is. That was the point of my post. I did combine all the version into one to show a position against Modelism, and oneness.............. I did not go deep enough to separate any version of the Trinity Doctrine and tried my best not to favor any one position.
My position was against Modelist, and oneness.............. Not really against the different version of the Trinity Doctrine.
Great post.
Mike.
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Guest
Guest
- Thread starter
- #27
@Brother Mike If you think about it, if the glory of the Holy Spirit was the same diety of the glory of God the Father, we wouldn't be able to withstand his glory, and it would crush us.
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Brother Mike
Guest
- Thread starter
- #28
Well, not sure about what that has to do with Trinity, but I have felt the Power of the Holy Spirit one time where it was a bit hard to walk. I am not sure how others you see on TV just fall down all the time, but I do remember that one time.
I can imagine standing in the throne room at the front of the Father's chair in a flesh body would last about a nano second before we were a puddle on the ground. Some of Kenneth Copeland meetings the anointing was so strong it drained all the battery operated things in the auditorium. Just working for one meeting I could feel the power of God coming through the walls and cars passing by just pulling in because it drew them there.
I am not sure I would be able to explain the power and glory that radiates off God, I can imagine it would kill us instantly if we were not shielded in some way.
Mike.
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Guest
Guest
- Thread starter
- #29
That's why he sends the Holy Spirit to us, so his glory doesn't kill us instantly. :D
- Jul 13, 2012
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Take three glasses of pure water.
Label them 1,2 and 3.
Pour the three glasses of water into one pitcher.
Now define for me within the pitcher, glasses 1,2 and 3, where they are.
It's one body of water.
The Spirit is likened to water.
JLB
- Jul 13, 2012
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teddy trueblood
Member
- Jul 10, 2011
- 293
- 1
Post #7 by Ted:
Brother Mike:
Ted:
First, saying that something cannot be proved but also CANNOT BE DISPROVED means it is true is completely false. (Try to DISPROVE that unicorns, or that fairies - like Tinkerbell, or mermaids, etc. existed.)
Second, where is the legitimacy of “defending the trinity doctrine” when I and others are not allowed to answer trinitarian 'proofs' or defend the non-trinity doctrine of God???
……………………………….......
Post #9 by Brother Mike:
……………………….
I have received warnings and infractions here simply because I posted honest scriptural evidence which challenges a ‘trinity-proof’ scripture. Most of those posts have been deleted also (most recently in “The ‘I AM’ debate final put to rest” discussion).
The reason given for these actions is that I violated the 'Terms of Service' part 2.1.
“2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read (Statement of Faith):”
The part of Statement of Faith which pertains to my warnings, infractions, and deletions:
“We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
So, either I misunderstand your quote above, or it is very wrong.
……………………..
Brother Mike continued:
………………………………...
I’m not sure I understand your statement above. But if you are saying that the traditional statement of the trinity doctrine by the Roman Church in the fourth century A.D. must be taken as truth without question, I disagree.
I believe that no mere tradition of men should be taken as the word of God. Only SCRIPTURE, when honestly translated, should be our guide to the truth. And scripture (and comments concerning Scripture by TRINITARIAN scholars) is, most often, what I have been using.
If you care to respond to me about this you better copy this quickly. It will most likely be deleted very soon after being posted.
Brother Mike:
Ted:
First, saying that something cannot be proved but also CANNOT BE DISPROVED means it is true is completely false. (Try to DISPROVE that unicorns, or that fairies - like Tinkerbell, or mermaids, etc. existed.)
Second, where is the legitimacy of “defending the trinity doctrine” when I and others are not allowed to answer trinitarian 'proofs' or defend the non-trinity doctrine of God???
……………………………….......
Post #9 by Brother Mike:
……………………….
I have received warnings and infractions here simply because I posted honest scriptural evidence which challenges a ‘trinity-proof’ scripture. Most of those posts have been deleted also (most recently in “The ‘I AM’ debate final put to rest” discussion).
The reason given for these actions is that I violated the 'Terms of Service' part 2.1.
“2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read (Statement of Faith):”
The part of Statement of Faith which pertains to my warnings, infractions, and deletions:
“We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
So, either I misunderstand your quote above, or it is very wrong.
……………………..
Brother Mike continued:
………………………………...
I’m not sure I understand your statement above. But if you are saying that the traditional statement of the trinity doctrine by the Roman Church in the fourth century A.D. must be taken as truth without question, I disagree.
I believe that no mere tradition of men should be taken as the word of God. Only SCRIPTURE, when honestly translated, should be our guide to the truth. And scripture (and comments concerning Scripture by TRINITARIAN scholars) is, most often, what I have been using.
If you care to respond to me about this you better copy this quickly. It will most likely be deleted very soon after being posted.
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
- 5,372
- 295
Hi Mike,
I agree the doctrine does get abused but I think that is because of the modern understanding of it. When most Christians say three persons are one God, I believe most are thinking three beings are one being and they try to reconcile that concept which cannot be reconciled because it is a contradiction. Therefore they turn to the idea that it is a mystery that man cannot understand. If you look at church history you will find that the earliest Christians didn't this problem of understanding the Trinity the way people do today. I agree with what you've said about Modalism.
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
- 5,372
- 295
Hi JBL,
I agree the Spirit is likened to water in the Scriptures. However, if you pour the three glasses of water into a pitcher you no longer have three glasses of water. This modern understanding of the Trinity didn't come into existence until the time of Augustine. The Nicene creed shows how the earliest Christians understood the Trinity, they didn't have this idea that three being are one being. They understood there was one God the Father, just as Paul said. They understood that Jesus was the Son of God begotten of God before the creation and that the HS proceeds from both the Father and the Son.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
- Thread starter
- #36
Thank you Teddy. I would like to make this very clear though...
This Forum "Christianforums.net"
DOES NOT BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY DOCTRINE!!! ANY INFRACTION OR WARNING FOR SPEAKING AGAINST THE TRINITY IS AN ABUSE OF POWER, AND HYPOCRISY!!!!
“We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
THIS IS NOT TRINITY!!!!!!!!! NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!!!
You can't warn someone for putting down something you don't believe in anyway, and make a statement about being Christian.
You don't agree...... fine. I did not take any one Doctrine, but just wrote it out with them all in mind. The Thread is called Defending the Trinitarian Creed. If I went out of line with one of the many Trinity doctrines then I am sorry. I was going for a separation of Oneness........ (Like this website) as opposed to Trinity.
We are defending the Trinity Creed. In that Creed I have proved that the Trinity Doctrine leaves no scriptural contradictions. It is a perfect Creed that has developed over a few hundred years.
In the Doctrines themselves.
The Nicean Creed which was really first throughly formed version only comments outside the doctrine about the Mystery. It was the Cathloic Church, the first organized church to adopt the doctrine and added the Mystery of the Christian faith. You find this language of the mystery in most other Creeds following.
You are correct, just like that. We are defending the Creed itself. In the creed there are no scriptural contradictions. We have 3 persons of the Trinity, in the order they belong. The father over Jesus over the Holy Spirit. 1st, 2nd, 3rd person, which are God.
We believe in one God
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
Everything was made for and because of Jesus, Jesus not the creator like the word said and not the Father. The real Trinity Doctrine matches every single scripture!!!!
The mystery part, is how is there only ONE GOD? It's in the doctrine that it's a mystery, so you can't say the Doctrine is wrong, because it already told you.
The real Trinity Creed sits Jesus at the right hand of the Father. The oneness and Modelist Doctrines remove any distinction from the 3, and lump them into a God machine. In fact the terms Co-equal are not in the Original Trinity Creed.
Now Ted........... There is nothing wrong with the Trinity Creed. It can't be refuted. There are no scripture contradictions, none of the nonsense you see about Jesus being creator as the 2nd person in the Trinity. The Doctrine covers everything!!!!
If you want to say the Doctrine is nonsense, then that is a different story. Even though all 3 are very different persons, there is still only ONE GOD. If you have an issue with the Mystery part I can't help you there. IN this thread I am defending the Trinity Doctrine against Modelism, Oneness, syabellism, and Nestorianism, and Monophysitism.
If your not buying into Monotheism and believe that Theos and all the other Words of God defined more of a nature of something then a person, then there is another thread somewhere "Who was Jesus praying to." that has a long discussion about this.
I am defending the Trinity Doctrine from the other Monotheism doctrines, which are full of scriptural contradictions.
Mike.
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Guest
Guest
- Thread starter
- #37
[MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION] I think you've maybe invested too much energy into explaining the trinity, to people who are already saved? It's even harder explaining it to a non believer, if you know what I mean. The Holy trinity subject should be in the same category as masturbation and homosexuality, because the debates go nowhere.
teddy trueblood
Member
- Jul 10, 2011
- 293
- 1
Mike, I want to defend the original (and only) scriptural monotheistic doctrine: God (ho theos or Elohim) is a single person, the creator, God Almighty, the Father alone who has the personal name YHWH (in Hebrew). This single person who created his firstborn Son (who came to earth to be a savior and king over kings of the earth) is the Most High (Psalm 83:18, KJV).
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Brother Mike
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- #39
Dave, I am not debating the Trinity Doctrine, or anything... In fact this thread has laid dormant and I am surprised anyone has taken any interest in it. In fact, I don't buy into the Trinity Doctrine, If I had to choose though, I would pick it over the other Monotheist doctrines.
So, that would not be the Trinity Doctrine? That is fine Ted. Is this a (printed up) doctrine what is this? Was Jesus created as in the flesh only by the spoken word that made Mary pregnant, or this more of a
Monophysitism view that Jesus is the actual Word of God? Was Jesus always here? Or created as in His spirit being also made, then sent to a body?
Mike.
Deborah13
Member
- Nov 30, 2012
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Matthew 12:18 KJV
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.