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Definitive Answer on Legalism & Judaizing

glorydaz said:
Genesis 9:2-4 said:
Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

I noticed a few things right off. The noun used to describe every moving thing can be translated as 1.) creeping creature, 2.) swiftly moving creature, 3.) any moving creature and 4.) a reptile. Point 1, 3 and 4 all bear the same implications, but point 2 can mean wild game. At any rate, let's disregard what is permissible for a moment and just take a look at what is right.

We see from the context that there is a distinction even at this point in time from what animals are clean and from what animals are unclean. It has been said that this terminology of clean and unclean only denotes what is sacrificially acceptable and what is sacrificially unacceptable. But there is no Scripture to prove this. While the context seems to uphold the idea that clean animals are the only animals acceptable to be sacrificed it does not dismiss any further implications that we later find in Leviticus 11:44. That is, touching unclean dead animals or eating unclean animals is unholy behavior.

Was there a standard of clean and unclean back then? Yes. Were clean animals the only animals acceptable to God as a sacrifice? Yes, it seems that way. Would what God deems as holy also be holy for us? He is the ultimate standard, so yes. We should be holy as God is holy, right? Yes, God said as much. Did God later reveal that eating unclean animals was unholy behavior? Yes. So if God declared some animals unclean back then, revealed that eating such animals was unholy behavior and we know there was no evidence to the contrary in Noah's time, then would it be unholy behavior even back then to eat unclean animals? Yes.

In Deuteronomy 14:21 we see that God allows his People to sell impermissible meat to those who are not his People. So he seems to allow for the flaws of those who are not his People as he had all along. However, God's standards are holy and are for all mankind (e.g. Sodom & Gomorrah). It's not that the Gentiles and unbelievers were not held to the standard of his Law. If that were the case then no Gentile or unbeliever would need Christ. Rather, the Gentiles and unbelievers simply did not know the full extent of God's Law and could not conduct themselves in a holy manner. He meant for his People to be an example to the lawless of how they should live (Deuteronomy 4:6). But we, who know what is holy behavior, should not act in an unholy fashion.

I cannot speak with certainty on this passage without knowing for sure that all animals did not refer to all untamed, swift-moving game. However, the context seems to suggest that all animals includes that which is unclean. So in this instance I believe that God would understand if you ate an unclean animal to keep from starving. I would have a tendency to do as much, myself. ;) But his allowance to eat meat comes with stipulations in the same way that his allowance to eat plants came with obvious stipulations. For example, we should not eat Poison Ivy or Holly berries. In the same way we should not attempt to eat poison dart frogs or puffer fish, both of which are unclean. One of the stipulations that came with the allowance to eat meat was abstinence from unclean animals. So God never intended for us to make a habit out of eating mice, crabs, lobsters or arachnids. Nor, I think, did he view it as acceptable, holy behavior.

Should we have our Eastre goddess ham or our Passover Lamb? Your thoughts?
 
Something interesting I read recently had to do with phyla such as nematoda, bryozoa and platyhelminthes. That is, hookworms, moss animals and tapeworms. It is doubtful whether any of them have blood. So it seems problematic to assign them to the context of "all creatures" which God permits us to eat when he gives the further command to drain out the blood of said creatures before we eat them. Bryozoans (moss animals) have a certain fluid that carries nutrients, though not through a circulatory system, but not oxygen and other gasses that they retrieve through the wall of their bodies. If one wanted to call this blood, then I suppose they should drain it out before they ate the creature. But the position that all creatures are clean and acceptable for food becomes increasingly dubious.
 
Packrat said:
Something interesting I read recently had to do with phyla such as nematoda, bryozoa and platyhelminthes. That is, hookworms, moss animals and tapeworms. It is doubtful whether any of them have blood. So it seems problematic to assign them to the context of "all creatures" which God permits us to eat when he gives the further command to drain out the blood of said creatures before we eat them. Bryozoans (moss animals) have a certain fluid that carries nutrients, though not through a circulatory system, but not oxygen and other gasses that they retrieve through the wall of their bodies. If one wanted to call this blood, then I suppose they should drain it out before they ate the creature. But the position that all creatures are clean and acceptable for food becomes increasingly dubious.
hmm you eat something similar to blood when you eat meat.

hmm, i wonder if donate you blood or recieve blood transfusions. as that is a sense consuming blood.
 
jasoncran said:
hmm you eat something similar to blood when you eat meat.

hmm, i wonder if donate you blood or recieve blood transfusions. as that is a sense consuming blood.

I'd say that more often than not people consume minor quantities of cooked blood that has been left in their meat. But as a rule it should be drained out. I'm curious whether our focus should be on not consuming blood in this case or on the act of draining the blood out of the animal. We all know that blood is the life of an animal. I've heard it explained that God wanted us to realize that we were draining the life out of a part of his creation in order that we may continue to live. After all, we were never meant to eat animals to begin with. We were meant to take care of them. Killing them so that we could live should not have been taken for granted. I tend to believe that's the point God wanted to get across with this law.

So while we would consume particles of cooked blood in any meat we're going to eat it's a general rule that we're not supposed to eat blood; we're supposed to drain it out. It is doubtful, however, that God would consider receiving blood transfusions to be consuming blood. The Law was meant to protect and help humans while furthering their relationship with God. We should always try to follow the Law when able. One of the reasons I talk about it so much on these forums is because I know not everyone realizes this and it is often portrayed as bad. This is a perversion.

Did Jesus give us any ritual laws when he told us to participate in baptism or communion? The first answer seems to be a yes, but that is not entirely true. Baptism was used as a means of ritual cleansing as found in the Law. John simply used an existing law to teach a spiritual truth - the same truth, arguably, it was supposed to teach all along. Communion was not a new law either. It was an existing law called the Passover. My guess is that it was called Passover for quite a while until later when it was renamed "communion." Then there comes tithing, but I'm a bit foggy on that subject.

Would anyone describe being baptized, participating in communion or tithing as being burdened or as being legalistic? If not then I think it becomes a little easier to understand my perspective. David loved God's Law. I think we can join him in his sentiment when we realize the significance these rituals serve in our lives.
 
actually that blood you think is meat isnt, it the called myoglobin, when its o2 rich it looks like blood when its grey it has co2 or no o2 on it.

you brought blood as a health, and science has confirmed that jewish dietery laws may have spared them from those curses in exodus, as some of those things were due living in filth,

blood born pathogens that you get from transfusions

aids,myoplasma, hepatitis, malaria, herpes, to name a few

alot easier to get them from transfusion then eating the blood.
i dont eat blood, and i cant give blood for health reasons. but i would if i could

i will adress the tithing thing later.
 
jasoncran said:
actually that blood you think is meat isnt, it the called myoglobin, when its o2 rich it looks like blood when its grey it has co2 or no o2 on it.

Heh. Never heard of it. Interesting... I wasn't referring to myoglobin, though. I was pointing out the fact that at a purely molecular or chemical level there's going to be traces of blood in the tissues when we consume them unless God himself has completely removed them or they've somehow chemically broken down.

jasoncran said:
blood born pathogens that you get from transfusions

Yeah. It seems like a health risk. Would not getting a blood transfusion when you need one be a health risk, too? Healthiness aside, God still didn't say to abstain from blood transfusions. I think this is one of those gray areas spoken about by Paul when he said that if one person thought it was wrong then for them it was wrong. If your conscience convicts you to not get a blood transfusion because it might be linked to the prohibition against consuming blood in God's Law, then that would be a matter for you to bring to God. But to aid you in such a decision it would be good to keep in mind that the Torah hangs on love. If you take love out of the Law then you defeat the spirit of the Law. So you can ask yourself, "Would it be loving to God if I refused a blood transfusion? Would it be loving to myself to refuse a blood transfusion?"
 
did you ever wonder why the lord didnt want the isrealites not to eat and blood and also noah, pagans used to also eat blood of their animals or hunted one in order to gain its power.

btw blood plasma transfusion is better then blood transfusion as the risk of diseases. is lower.
 
jasoncran said:
pagans used to also eat blood of their animals or hunted one in order to gain its power.

Yup. I've heard berserkers drank the blood of bears because they thought it gave them their strength. Probably just ended up making them sickly.
 
bersercker that is a word i havent heard since the days d&d.

i think the lord did that to seperate his people from the pagans mainly, and als to point to the cross and how we should see the blood of the cross.
 
jasoncran said:
bersercker that is a word i havent heard since the days d&d.

Never played the game. I was thinking about it once before a friend of mine gave me two or three novel-length game manuals to read in order to learn the basics. :D

jasoncran said:
i think the lord did that to seperate his people from the pagans mainly

I certainly think that could be part of it since Leviticus 19:26 lists the prohibition of not eating blood in close proximity to the prohibition against practicing sorcery. I also tend to believe it had something to do with keeping his people healthy and respecting the extinguished life that was once part of his creation. At any rate, it's always been my belief that observing God's Law and meditating on it eventually yields spiritual insights.
 
yeah but you endorse transfusions and go on to say that is ok and it the page eating blood is bad. inconsisent.
i wont eat blood. but if you are going to say that its bad to eat blood but ok to donate and recieve blood transfusions on a health note. thats inconsistent.

because while blood donation is safe, but some like me and other cant donate due to lifestyles(former) and also certain diseases(malaria, temporary, mad cow exposure, and herpes and hepatisits)
made cow is very communicable outside of blood intake

i'm for blood donation.
 
I haven't read this whole thread, almost none of it actually. But does that mean some of you won't eat a medium cooked steak? That still has blood in it. I don't eat meat so I don't have to worry about it but I'm just curious.
 
faithtransforms said:
I haven't read this whole thread, almost none of it actually. But does that mean some of you won't eat a medium cooked steak? That still has blood in it. I don't eat meat so I don't have to worry about it but I'm just curious.
:shrug not blood thats called myoglobin as relative of hemoglobin that carries oxygen to muscles cells. when its red it oxygen rich and when its grey it oxygen depleted, both hemoglobin and myoglobin are iron based.
 
jasoncran said:
but if you are going to say that its bad to eat blood but ok to donate and recieve blood transfusions on a health note. thats inconsistent.

I can't remember ever supporting blood transfusions. I can, however, remember agreeing with you that there may be some health risk involved in getting one. My only stance on this subject is that God never told us not to get blood transfusions. He told us not to consume (i.e. eat, drink) blood. My purpose here is not to advocate the holiness of blood transfusions but the validity of God's Law. Here is the breakdown on this situation:

Both consuming blood and getting blood transfusions have some risk. Getting a blood transfusion is sometimes necessary, but consuming blood more often than not is unnecessary. So would I advocate consuming blood when God tells us it is wrong and there is no reason to? No. Would I advocate getting a blood transfusion in order to save life? Well, if it were mine I'd probably take the blood transfusion. I could live with the risk. In this case it would be impossible not to.

So how far you go in observing the Law should be determined by love: love of God and love of Man. Some don't realize that the driving force behind the Law is love; otherwise they'd realize that it's best for them and obey it regardless of whether the obligation to obey it was done away with or not. And if everyone realized that love was the driving force behind God's Law, including the Jews, only a rare few would go to such lengths as to say that blood transfusions are wrong and people should rather die than receive one. And that's just about the level of misguided analytical thought that so-called Jews act on.

In conclusion, one can assess my behavior any way they like, but it doesn't say anything about the Law of God. And in this case I do not believe it to be an accurate representation of the way I have conducted myself. But I enjoy the insights you've given.
 
faithtransforms said:
But does that mean some of you won't eat a medium cooked steak? That still has blood in it.

I'd certainly try not to consume meat with blood in it. If it's unnecessary I have no business doing so.
 
jasoncran said:
faithtransforms said:
I haven't read this whole thread, almost none of it actually. But does that mean some of you won't eat a medium cooked steak? That still has blood in it. I don't eat meat so I don't have to worry about it but I'm just curious.
:shrug not blood thats called myoglobin as relative of hemoglobin that carries oxygen to muscles cells. when its red it oxygen rich and when its grey it oxygen depleted, both hemoglobin and myoglobin are iron based.

I don't think I get it :confused When I used to eat steak, a properly cooked medium steak had blood in it. At least I think it did. Maybe it was just the color of the flesh that made me think there was blood in it? When you've got just a raw cut of meat, isn't there blood in it?

Were the hebrews able to get ALL blood out of the meat they ate?
 
faithtransforms said:
jasoncran said:
faithtransforms said:
I haven't read this whole thread, almost none of it actually. But does that mean some of you won't eat a medium cooked steak? That still has blood in it. I don't eat meat so I don't have to worry about it but I'm just curious.
:shrug not blood thats called myoglobin as relative of hemoglobin that carries oxygen to muscles cells. when its red it oxygen rich and when its grey it oxygen depleted, both hemoglobin and myoglobin are iron based.

I don't think I get it :confused When I used to eat steak, a properly cooked medium steak had blood in it. At least I think it did. Maybe it was just the color of the flesh that made me think there was blood in it? When you've got just a raw cut of meat, isn't there blood in it?

Were the hebrews able to get ALL blood out of the meat they ate?

So the red stuff in meat is just myoglobin?
 
faithtransforms said:
jasoncran said:
faithtransforms said:
I haven't read this whole thread, almost none of it actually. But does that mean some of you won't eat a medium cooked steak? That still has blood in it. I don't eat meat so I don't have to worry about it but I'm just curious.
:shrug not blood thats called myoglobin as relative of hemoglobin that carries oxygen to muscles cells. when its red it oxygen rich and when its grey it oxygen depleted, both hemoglobin and myoglobin are iron based.

I don't think I get it :confused When I used to eat steak, a properly cooked medium steak had blood in it. At least I think it did. Maybe it was just the color of the flesh that made me think there was blood in it? When you've got just a raw cut of meat, isn't there blood in it?

Were the hebrews able to get ALL blood out of the meat they ate?
no, that is actually the substance called myoglobin(on they veins carry blood) they allow stuff to pass through now blood.

google myoglobin
 
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