Deism

[reznwerks]

Re: reason

[

You believe in spite of the evidence not because of it

yes that's correct, and what happen to you not enough belief? And what makes you think that your not lost?
shalom and love in the mane of YESHUA coming soon in spite of what you think
chana

I don't think you quite understood what I wrote when you said you agreed. Without the bible you have NO first hand evidence for anything you believe in. The rest of your reasons to believe center simply on circular reasoning. Why is the bible true? Because the bible says so. Why is God good? Because the bible says so. Did you ever disect the passage from the bible that explains what faith is. "the evidence of things not seen". Faith is only belief and nothing more than that. It has no proof or evidence to support the belief and belief doesn't make something true.If it were a fact it wouldn't be a belief but a fact. In answering you question of being lost the answer is that I am not lost. No one is lost as far as I am concerned. If there is a God and a heaven it is available to one and all alike. I don't believe the creator of the universe if one exists has nothing better to do than sit behind a desk fielding requests from his creation to make him change his mind or come up with all kinds of riddles for his creation to dabble with and try to figure out if and when he is going to come back and save them. The creator of the universe is not racist favoring one tribe over another (jews). The creator of the universe is not an ego maniac demanding we acknowledge his presence by organized dogma and the creator of the universe is not a referee looking down on us with a whistle waiting to blow it for every percieved infraction.

 

[YESHUA]

Re: reason

[

You believe in spite of the evidence not because of it

yes that's correct, and what happen to you not enough belief? And what makes you think that your not lost?
shalom and love in the mane of YESHUA coming soon in spite of what you think
chana

I don't think you quite understood what I wrote when you said you agreed. Without the bible you have NO first hand evidence for anything you believe in. The rest of your reasons to believe center simply on circular reasoning. Why is the bible true? Because the bible says so. Why is God good? Because the bible says so. Did you ever disect the passage from the bible that explains what faith is. "the evidence of things not seen". Faith is only belief and nothing more than that. It has no proof or evidence to support the belief and belief doesn't make something true.If it were a fact it wouldn't be a belief but a fact. In answering you question of being lost the answer is that I am not lost. No one is lost as far as I am concerned. If there is a God and a heaven it is available to one and all alike. I don't believe the creator of the universe if one exists has nothing better to do than sit behind a desk fielding requests from his creation to make him change his mind or come up with all kinds of riddles for his creation to dabble with and try to figure out if and when he is going to come back and save them. The creator of the universe is not racist favoring one tribe over another (jews). The creator of the universe is not an ego maniac demanding we acknowledge his presence by organized dogma and the creator of the universe is not a referee looking down on us with a whistle waiting to blow it for every percieved infraction.

NO my friend I came to believe in GOD or should I say I have always believe in HIM even before I have ever read the Bible and non of my family were Christian and I NEVER MEET ANY CHRISTIANS UNTIL 1990 and then I started to read the Bible in 1992 and guess what it was real all of it every word I have been told by the HOLY SPIRIT and I think you should stop because you have no idea what your talking about, and your statement about who GOD is has no meaning because YOU DO NOT know who he is do you? Do you have a personally relationship with him have you ever talked to him have you ever heard his voice? I have and I believed and guess what when I read the bible I found out that what HOLY SPIRIT said to me way back in 1966 was not only true but it was recorded actually word for word in the bible so stop before you really make a fool out of yourself I believe before any evidence was presented to me so I believe because I was convinced by the HOLY SPIRIT not by man can you understand? That’s why I agreed with what you wrote.
And nobody is lost as fare as you concern great so we all go to heaven do we? And you don't believe the CREATOR of the universe exist and then you go on ranting about what HE is and what HE isn't make up your mind is HE or isn't HE you can't have it both ways either there is a Creator or there isn't so which is it? And what makes you think that GOD favor on tribe over another, it is written that whosoever believeth in JESUS will be saved Jew or Gentile alike no different there do you agree?
chana

 

[reznwerks]

Re: reason

NO my friend I came to believe in GOD or should I say I have always believe in HIM even before I have ever read the Bible and non of my family were Christian and I NEVER MEET ANY CHRISTIANS UNTIL 1990 and then I started to read the Bible in 1992 and guess what it was real all of it every word I have been told by the HOLY SPIRIT and I think you should stop because you have no idea what your talking about, and your statement about who GOD is has no meaning because YOU DO NOT know who he is do you?
Of course I don't know him. If God presented himself to you then fine. He has not presented himself to me. Until then it is Gods fault if I do not believe.


Do you have a personally relationship with him have you ever talked to him have you ever heard his voice?
Sorry but I have never heard voices unless someone was standing there.


I have and I believed and guess what when I read the bible I found out that what HOLY SPIRIT said to me way back in 1966 was not only true but it was recorded actually word for word in the bible so stop before you really make a fool out of yourself I believe before any evidence was presented to me so I believe because I was convinced by the HOLY SPIRIT not by man can you understand? That’s why I agreed with what you wrote.

When the Holy Spirit talks to you can others hear him as well?

And nobody is lost as fare as you concern great so we all go to heaven do we?
As I said if heaven exists it is open to one and all alike. Personally I don't believe in heaven as a reward for anything and I don't think anyone is going anywhere when they die.

And you don't believe the CREATOR of the universe exist and then you go on ranting about what HE is and what HE isn't make up your mind is HE or isn't HE you can't have it both ways either there is a Creator or there isn't so which is it?
No , what I said is that IF a creator exists he is a far bigger character than to act petty and childish and pick one tribe as superior over all others. Yes I can have it both ways. Either their isn't a God or the if their is he is NOT the God of the bible.

And what makes you think that GOD favor on tribe over another, it is written that whosoever believeth in JESUS will be saved Jew or Gentile alike no different there do you agree?

I think that the bible is pretty clear in that the Jews are the chosen people. If you read your bible and understand it you will discover the reason Jesus (if he existed) used parables. To save you some time I will tell you now but you can verify it with your pastor. Jesus used parables to hide the truth from the GENTILES. Jesus came for the Jew not the gentile. The Christianity you talk about came about from Paul whos job it was to gain converts. You might be reading your bible but you don't understand it.
chana

 

[nuhmmie]

Re: reason

Do you have a personally relationship with him have you ever talked to him have you ever heard his voice?
chana

yeshua, do you know I forgot all about that?! may be a great topic for a new thread if you feel inclined. I've heard His voice too. His sheep will know His voice.

wow, man. seriously. thanks! that sentence just leaped out at me. what a wonderful thing to remember. :wink:

 

[nuhmmie]

Re: reason

NO my friend I came to believe in GOD or should I say I have always believe in HIM even before I have ever read the Bible and non of my family were Christian and I NEVER MEET ANY CHRISTIANS UNTIL 1990 and then I started to read the Bible in 1992 and guess what it was real all of it every word I have been told by the HOLY SPIRIT and I think you should stop because you have no idea what your talking about, and your statement about who GOD is has no meaning because YOU DO NOT know who he is do you?
Of course I don't know him. If God presented himself to you then fine. He has not presented himself to me. Until then it is Gods fault if I do not believe.
You've said "presented" Himself, what, like a clown at a birthday party? Would you entertain the notion that you never listened? Not heard, but listened. Just a thought. And if that would be the case, then it would be YOUR fault. Since you went with the context of blame vs. a choice. As in, I heard but I'm choicing not to listen.

Do you have a personally relationship with him have you ever talked to him have you ever heard his voice?
Sorry but I have never heard voices unless someone was standing there.
You don't work in an office with cubicles, I take it. LOL I heard His voice. I heard His voice in a dream. And I wasn't saved for years later. You heard something that made you say "yeah, that's right, I can get out of it by making it all God's fault". But, that's another topic and not worth entertaining at the present. Let's drop this one. :o

I have and I believed and guess what when I read the bible I found out that what HOLY SPIRIT said to me way back in 1966 was not only true but it was recorded actually word for word in the bible so stop before you really make a fool out of yourself I believe before any evidence was presented to me so I believe because I was convinced by the HOLY SPIRIT not by man can you understand? That’s why I agreed with what you wrote.

When the Holy Spirit talks to you can others hear him as well?
now you're just being rude. there was no point in saying that.

And nobody is lost as fare as you concern great so we all go to heaven do we?
As I said if heaven exists it is open to one and all alike. Personally I don't believe in heaven as a reward for anything and I don't think anyone is going anywhere when they die.
and why is this so? what if anything do you have against rewards? what causes you to reject an afterlife? just askn'.

And you don't believe the CREATOR of the universe exist and then you go on ranting about what HE is and what HE isn't make up your mind is HE or isn't HE you can't have it both ways either there is a Creator or there isn't so which is it?
No , what I said is that IF a creator exists he is a far bigger character than to act petty and childish and pick one tribe as superior over all others. Yes I can have it both ways. Either their isn't a God or the if their is he is NOT the God of the bible.
well, would you entertain the notion that one tribe was chosen as one point of focus for the rest to "observe"? If God chose more then one "people", could you keep track of it all? could anyone?

And what makes you think that GOD favor on tribe over another, it is written that whosoever believeth in JESUS will be saved Jew or Gentile alike no different there do you agree?

I think that the bible is pretty clear in that the Jews are the chosen people. If you read your bible and understand it you will discover the reason Jesus (if he existed) used parables. To save you some time I will tell you now but you can verify it with your pastor. Jesus used parables to hide the truth from the GENTILES. Jesus came for the Jew not the gentile. The Christianity you talk about came about from Paul whos job it was to gain converts. You might be reading your bible but you don't understand it.
I think what isn't understood is not history or scripture, but of a relationship with a friend. Because if you don't have it, then you wouldn't understand it. that's usually the root of it all. for you can argue history and argue scripture, but you can't argue a relationship.

night all :P

 

[reznwerks]

Re: reason

NO my friend I came to believe in GOD or should I say I have always believe in HIM even before I have ever read the Bible and non of my family were Christian and I NEVER MEET ANY CHRISTIANS UNTIL 1990 and then I started to read the Bible in 1992 and guess what it was real all of it every word I have been told by the HOLY SPIRIT and I think you should stop because you have no idea what your talking about, and your statement about who GOD is has no meaning because YOU DO NOT know who he is do you?
Of course I don't know him. If God presented himself to you then fine. He has not presented himself to me. Until then it is Gods fault if I do not believe.
You've said "presented" Himself, what, like a clown at a birthday party? Would you entertain the notion that you never listened? Not heard, but listened. Just a thought. And if that would be the case, then it would be YOUR fault. Since you went with the context of blame vs. a choice. As in, I heard but I'm choicing not to listen.
Yes , like a clown if that is what it would take. Whenever a message is not delivered have you ever heard the receiver take the blame?

Do you have a personally relationship with him have you ever talked to him have you ever heard his voice?
Sorry but I have never heard voices unless someone was standing there.
You don't work in an office with cubicles, I take it. LOL I heard His voice. I heard His voice in a dream. And I wasn't saved for years later. You heard something that made you say "yeah, that's right, I can get out of it by making it all God's fault". But, that's another topic and not worth entertaining at the present. Let's drop this one. :o
Talk about LOL. I suppose you have totally discounted the possibility of your over active imagination.

I have and I believed and guess what when I read the bible I found out that what HOLY SPIRIT said to me way back in 1966 was not only true but it was recorded actually word for word in the bible so stop before you really make a fool out of yourself I believe before any evidence was presented to me so I believe because I was convinced by the HOLY SPIRIT not by man can you understand? That’s why I agreed with what you wrote.

When the Holy Spirit talks to you can others hear him as well?
now you're just being rude. there was no point in saying that.
Thats not rude. He made a claim and I was trying to validate it. If he claims God is talking others should be able to hear or at least provide info that no one else has. Otherwise we only have his word for it. Hmm? Sounds like the apostle Paul all over again.

And nobody is lost as fare as you concern great so we all go to heaven do we?
As I said if heaven exists it is open to one and all alike. Personally I don't believe in heaven as a reward for anything and I don't think anyone is going anywhere when they die.
and why is this so? what if anything do you have against rewards? what causes you to reject an afterlife? just askn'.
I have nothing against rewards and in fact I love to be rewarded for job well done. However there is absolutely nothing that would lead me to beleive that a reward is due for believing the impossible or adhering to a certain set of dogma. This is a value for humans made by humans. I don't reject an afterlife and hope their is one but there is absolutely no reliable evidence that one exists. Again if there is one it is open to one and all.

And you don't believe the CREATOR of the universe exist and then you go on ranting about what HE is and what HE isn't make up your mind is HE or isn't HE you can't have it both ways either there is a Creator or there isn't so which is it?
No , what I said is that IF a creator exists he is a far bigger character than to act petty and childish and pick one tribe as superior over all others. Yes I can have it both ways. Either their isn't a God or the if their is he is NOT the God of the bible.
well, would you entertain the notion that one tribe was chosen as one point of focus for the rest to "observe"? If God chose more then one "people", could you keep track of it all? could anyone?
Why would God even need one tribe to track anything. He is all powerful. This is silly. God can do anything so he can end evil , evict Satan and never had a need to send Jesus to die for anything. To whom was the price paid when Jesus died? You are new and so far no one has answered that question. Who demanded that Jesus die and how does his death somehow free the rest of mankind?

And what makes you think that GOD favor on tribe over another, it is written that whosoever believeth in JESUS will be saved Jew or Gentile alike no different there do you agree?

I think that the bible is pretty clear in that the Jews are the chosen people. If you read your bible and understand it you will discover the reason Jesus (if he existed) used parables. To save you some time I will tell you now but you can verify it with your pastor. Jesus used parables to hide the truth from the GENTILES. Jesus came for the Jew not the gentile. The Christianity you talk about came about from Paul whos job it was to gain converts. You might be reading your bible but you don't understand it.
I think what isn't understood is not history or scripture, but of a relationship with a friend. Because if you don't have it, then you wouldn't understand it. that's usually the root of it all. for you can argue history and argue scripture, but you can't argue a relationship. Children have make believe friends that helps them adjust to their surroundings and psycologists say this is healthy. I didn't know they extended this thinking into adulthood. Doesn't the bible say something about when I was a child I did things as a child and now that I am an adult I put away childish things?

night all :P

 

[nuhmmie]

Re: reason

Yes , like a clown if that is what it would take. Whenever a message is not delivered have you ever heard the receiver take the blame?
But that's the point. If the message is delivered and you refuse to listen or even hear it, it's YOUR fault. I suppose you just up an convert if the message was delivered by a clown. :wink:

Talk about LOL. I suppose you have totally discounted the possibility of your over active imagination.
I figured you'd get a kick out of it, that's why I left it in. :P And no, I dont' discount the possibility of having an over active imagination. But imagination didn't have anything to do with it. So, I can't count it either. But, that's neither here nor there.

Thats not rude. He made a claim and I was trying to validate it. If he claims God is talking others should be able to hear or at least provide info that no one else has. Otherwise we only have his word for it. Hmm? Sounds like the apostle Paul all over again.
what do you mean? someone should say "everyone listen up, God just told Herman in the third row....". what if the purpose was just for Yeshua to hear. ?

I have nothing against rewards and in fact I love to be rewarded for job well done. However there is absolutely nothing that would lead me to beleive that a reward is due for believing the impossible or adhering to a certain set of dogma. This is a value for humans made by humans. I don't reject an afterlife and hope their is one but there is absolutely no reliable evidence that one exists. Again if there is one it is open to one and all.
what's impossible about it? who's dogma? you set parameters in places God didn't. God never said, "you can enter if you follow the southern baptist dogma and that's that!". what "value"? and you think you could qualify for a value set by God? okay, here's one, Perfection. Be Perfect. Okay, let me know how it goes. LOL. What do you consider "relaible"? It is open to all. Everyone has the same offer. It just so happens there is only one entrance way. You follow that way in, your in, you try to find another route and you won't get in. And it applies to everyone.

Why would God even need one tribe to track anything. He is all powerful. This is silly. God can do anything so he can end evil , evict Satan and never had a need to send Jesus to die for anything. To whom was the price paid when Jesus died? You are new and so far no one has answered that question. Who demanded that Jesus die and how does his death somehow free the rest of mankind?
read it again, I said "point of focus for the rest". I never said it was for God to keep track. LOL Well, I can tell you how it was explained to me in a way that made sense. You may not "agree" but it made sense anyhow. God paid the price to Himself. Here goes: You are standing in traffic court, the judge finds you guilty of speeding. The fine is $300. You have to pay right then and there. But you don't have $300 dollars. The judge, takes off his robe *no longer in role of judge*, comes down, and hands you $300 to pay him. Goes back to the bench, puts back on his robe and declairs your debt paid. Jesus paid our debt by dying in our place because God required a "perfect" sacrifice and none of us qualify because we're born of adam and are already tainted meat. Jesus' wasn't born of a human father. "The Lamb". Legalities. I didn't answer everything you asked, but this is getting too long. LOL

[/color] Children have make believe friends that helps them adjust to their surroundings and psycologists say this is healthy. I didn't know they extended this thinking into adulthood. Doesn't the bible say something about when I was a child I did things as a child and now that I am an adult I put away childish things?
oh yes, putting away childish things is correct. But no one is making Jesus up. You require flesh and blood or something you can see. But doesn't also say, blessed are those who have not "seen" and believed.?

and now.........LUUUUUUUNCH! I'm famished.

 

[nuhmmie]

just a side note. I don't want you or anyone else to get uptight over my laughing. But it's the easiest way to convey to you that I'm not looking to argue or fight.

just converse. know what I'm sayn'? :fadein:

 

[Chupacabra]

You seem like a real expert on Deism. Just out of curiousity, where did you get your information? Did it refer primarily to English or French Deism?

 

[nuhmmie]

you sound might angry with me

 

[Chupacabra]

Not really angry. I admit I was frustrated at first, but now its become somewhat amusing. While the first sentence in my last post was clearly sarcastic, the questions were serious. Because it seems that you consider yourself such an expert on Deism as to know what I believe better than I do, I'd assume you would have done a great deal of objective research, lest your expertise in the subject is little more than a facade of arrogance.

 

[nuhmmie]

Because it seems that you consider yourself such an expert on Deism as to know what I believe better than I do, I'd assume you would have done a great deal of objective research, lest your expertise in the subject is little more than a facade of arrogance.

interesting. who would have believed the shoe fitting the other foot? who knew?! :o

okay, that was sarcastic, but since sarcasm seemed to be the common opener, I figured I aughta get with the program. (I can't believe I used that phrase, :smt078 )

if you want to talk about your pent up hostilities towards (fill in the blank), that's cool. I am equally guilty of taking frustration out on others. So, I can take it. I know what it's like. But I'm offering you a chance to talk instead a wasting your time and your life by poorly baiting me into a battle of pride. I'm not feeln' it.

let's start over, shall we? let's start by you posting your "tenants" (or whatever basic out line you prefer), give us your backround and we'll go from there. I take it from one of your posts that there's some room to play in deism. some go this way, others go that way. a mini ala carte if you will. a measure of picking and choose what you like and what you don't. you tell me.

does this sound like a more amicable way of approaching things to you? Less frustrating? :smt054

 

[Chupacabra]

My religious backround: I suppose I didn't really believe in or care about a god until about seventh grade or so (I'm a junior in high school now). At that point, I arbitrarily decided to study the Bible. I read it every day and purchased a several books to aid me with me study. About six months later, I became "saved" and began attending church regularly. During this period, I was the biggest fundamentalist you could ever imagine. When I reached high school, however, my brain got in the way and I began seriously questioning what I believed and why I believed it. At this point, I made the segue from fundamentalist Christianity to what I referred to as "rational Christianity"; I no longer believed in Young Earth Creationism and stopped feigning anger towards homosexuals, among other things. Last spring, I began yet another period of pondering until I reached that conclusion that I believe that some being or force that I call god created the super condensed ball of matter that would become the universe and served as an impetus for its explosion. I don't believe god has interferred with the universe since.

What Deism is to me: Whereas English Deists still do contend that god does care about and at least to a degree interferes with the events of the universe, French-style Deists like myself disagree. Quite simply, we believe god created the universe and that's the whole of the supernatural. Deism is by no means a worldview, as Humanism is. Humanism refers to a gargantuan group of philosophies, most of which are barely related. For example, nearly every Renaissaince painter drew upon a Humanist tradition. To this day, Christian Humanists exist. Thomas Aquinas and his scholasticism movement were both of a religious Humanist nature. I'll assume that by "Humanist" you were speaking of Secular Humanism. I'll also assume you were joking or being sarcastic by saying Humanists worship the brain. Like Humanists, I emphasize the individual and believe reason and empathy, instead of faith or dogma, should guide belief systems. While I respect their freethought, I disagree with many of their theories on self-esteem. While some self-esteem is essential to happiness and the courage to think for oneself, the practices promoted by Rogers and others lead can lead to narcissism. I also feel that his diagnosis that most social problems arise from low self-esteem in individuals is severely flawed. I also differ with Maslow's hierchy of needs-- while it is a good idea, it is ridiculous to suggest that someone without security cannot love or that someone cannot be happy unless he or she achieves all of his or her dreams in the self-actualization phase. Perhaps one of the things that I disagree with humanists the most about is the potential of mankind. I see all humans as having a potential for great intelligence, compassion, creativity, and goodness. I also feel that a large if not preponderant number of human beings over the years have been ostentatious, ignorant, intolerant, malicious, and misguided. For such an optimists' creed as Humanism, that last sentence is a hard pill to swallow and is almost never conceded.

So as you can see, Humanism and Deism can coincide, but do not have to.

 

[YESHUA]

Re: reason

NO my friend I came to believe in GOD or should I say I have always believe in HIM even before I have ever read the Bible and non of my family were Christian and I NEVER MEET ANY CHRISTIANS UNTIL 1990 and then I started to read the Bible in 1992 and guess what it was real all of it every word I have been told by the HOLY SPIRIT and I think you should stop because you have no idea what your talking about, and your statement about who GOD is has no meaning because YOU DO NOT know who he is do you?
Of course I don't know him. If God presented himself to you then fine. He has not presented himself to me. Until then it is Gods fault if I do not believe.


Do you have a personally relationship with him have you ever talked to him have you ever heard his voice?
Sorry but I have never heard voices unless someone was standing there.


I have and I believed and guess what when I read the bible I found out that what HOLY SPIRIT said to me way back in 1966 was not only true but it was recorded actually word for word in the bible so stop before you really make a fool out of yourself I believe before any evidence was presented to me so I believe because I was convinced by the HOLY SPIRIT not by man can you understand? That’s why I agreed with what you wrote.

When the Holy Spirit talks to you can others hear him as well?

And nobody is lost as fare as you concern great so we all go to heaven do we?
As I said if heaven exists it is open to one and all alike. Personally I don't believe in heaven as a reward for anything and I don't think anyone is going anywhere when they die.

And you don't believe the CREATOR of the universe exist and then you go on ranting about what HE is and what HE isn't make up your mind is HE or isn't HE you can't have it both ways either there is a Creator or there isn't so which is it?
No , what I said is that IF a creator exists he is a far bigger character than to act petty and childish and pick one tribe as superior over all others. Yes I can have it both ways. Either their isn't a God or the if their is he is NOT the God of the bible.

And what makes you think that GOD favor on tribe over another, it is written that whosoever believeth in JESUS will be saved Jew or Gentile alike no different there do you agree?

I think that the bible is pretty clear in that the Jews are the chosen people. If you read your bible and understand it you will discover the reason Jesus (if he existed) used parables. To save you some time I will tell you now but you can verify it with your pastor. Jesus used parables to hide the truth from the GENTILES. Jesus came for the Jew not the gentile. The Christianity you talk about came about from Paul whos job it was to gain converts. You might be reading your bible but you don't understand it.
chana

Great so now your telling me that I don't understand the Bible and thats coming from you thats really great.
And your telling GOD what HE is and what HE isn't. If HE is.
And Paul didn't start Christianity at least not the kind we have today.
He was a Hebrew, an orthodox Jew had he lived today, and he kept the law of Moshe, and in the beginning both the Jews and the Christians celebrated the same feast together and guess what they even celebrated Shabat together and now look at the mess we're in we left our roots not the other way around and you should be ashame of your self period my friend.

1 Timothy 4

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

You have never heard the voice of Jesus because even if you did you most likely wouldn't take heed or wouldn't believe anyway, have you ever
been a Christian? And if so how come your not one now?
Shalom and love in the name of YESHUA coming soon and HE is what the Bible say HE is and believed before I ever read the Bible so does my grandchildren neither one of them have read the Bible to believe in GOD I have told them about Jesus and GOD but that is not a guaranty they would believe that they would what I have said is true, their parents don't believe or should I say they believe that there is a force out there somewhere but thats it.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Chupacabra:

As quite a fan of yours on this site, please don't take my questions as offense...

I have traveled a fairly similar path as yourself...so I wanted to ask..

Why do you consider yourself a deist rather than an agnostic?

Now perhaps I didn't read your post well enough...but I am curious as to why you believe there must be a supernatural cause, as opposed to a natural cause, as to why the universe is the way it is?

While I ask this, I do not contend that you hold an untenable position...or that it is somehow wrong or illogical. Just that it seems unnecessary.

I'd appreciate if you expanded on it a bit...

 

[reznwerks]

Re: reason

[
chana

[/quote] Great so now your telling me that I don't understand the Bible and thats coming from you thats really great.
Yep
And your telling GOD what HE is and what HE isn't. If HE is.
Yep again.
And Paul didn't start Christianity at least not the kind we have today.
Oh yes he did. There isn't much arguement in that if you do the research. All we have is Pauls claim that he had a vision and the rest is history. Paul contradicts what Jesus said many times.
http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html

He was a Hebrew, an orthodox Jew had he lived today, and he kept the law of Moshe, and in the beginning both the Jews and the Christians celebrated the same feast together and guess what they even celebrated Shabat together and now look at the mess we're in we left our roots not the other way around and you should be ashame of your self period my friend.
I don't care what he was. He contradicted what Jesus taught and introduced the teachings to the gentiles. Jesus did not come for the gentiles and that is why Jesus spoke in parables. Jesus was a Jew and supposedly came for the Jew. That is what even the prophecies say. Read the book.

You have never heard the voice of Jesus because even if you did you most likely wouldn't take heed or wouldn't believe anyway, have you ever
been a Christian? And if so how come your not one now?
Trust me , if I heard a voice I would know it and others would be able to hear it too.
.[/quote]

 

[YESHUA]

Re: reason

And Paul didn't start Christianity at least not the kind we have today.
Oh yes he did. There isn't much arguement in that if you do the research. All we have is Pauls claim that he had a vision and the rest is history. Paul contradicts what Jesus said many times.
http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html

No he didn't

Atcs 21

17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
And show me explicit where in the Bible it says that Paul started Christianity and where it says that Jesus told Paul to start Christianity and don't give anything else than the word Christianity.

He was a Hebrew, an orthodox Jew had he lived today, and he kept the law of Moshe, and in the beginning both the Jews and the Christians celebrated the same feast together and guess what they even celebrated Shabat together and now look at the mess we're in we left our roots not the other way around and you should be ashame of your self period my friend.
I don't care what he was. He contradicted what Jesus taught and introduced the teachings to the gentiles. Jesus did not come for the gentiles and that is why Jesus spoke in parables. Jesus was a Jew and supposedly came for the Jew. That is what even the prophecies say. Read the book.

No Paul never contradicted Jesus at all.

You have never heard the voice of Jesus because even if you did you most likely wouldn't take heed or wouldn't believe anyway, have you ever
been a Christian? And if so how come your not one now?
Trust me , if I heard a voice I would know it and others would be able to hear it too.

No you wouldn't you wouldn't even hear Jesus if HE stood in front of you with a laudspeaker.
Shalom and love in the name of YESHUA
chana
.[/quote][/quote]

 

[YESHUA]

Re: reason

As I said if heaven exists it is open to one and all alike. Personally I don't believe in heaven as a reward for anything and I don't think anyone is going anywhere when they die.
I have nothing against rewards and in fact I love to be rewarded for job well done. However there is absolutely nothing that would lead me to beleive that a reward is due for believing the impossible or adhering to a certain set of dogma. This is a value for humans made by humans. I don't reject an afterlife and hope their is one but there is absolutely no reliable evidence that one exists. Again if there is one it is open to one and all.

So when we die we all go to heaven and do what? And in your opinion its open to everybody, just consider this if we all should go to heaven and being the same old sinner then we would be doing the same stuff up there as we did down here wouldn't we? And thats when you count me out I DECLINE TO GO AND SE PEOPLE DO THE SAME WICKED THINGS OVER AGAIN. do realize what your saying? In your heaven there will be rapist, pedophiles, murder, and GOD knows what else and then it wouldn't heaven would it? It would be hell all over for some people that have lived a hellish life down go use your GOD given brain that's why GOD gave you one

I think that the bible is pretty clear in that the Jews are the chosen people. If you read your bible and understand it you will discover the reason Jesus (if he existed) used parables. To save you some time I will tell you now but you can verify it with your pastor. Jesus used parables to hide the truth from the GENTILES. Jesus came for the Jew not the gentile.

Not so fast my friend Jesus did say that He had other sheeps as well and that was the Gentiles it couldn't have been the Jews HE was talking about since HE was talking to the Jews when HE said it.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
shalom and love in the name of YESHUA coming soon
chana

 

[reznwerks]

acts

Yeshua, Paul wrote Acts. Acts is accepted in he N/T as well as much of other books Paul wrote. Don't you get it? I clearly left a link that showed how Paul contradicted or should I say hi jacked Christiainity.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: acts

Yeshua, Paul wrote Acts. Acts is accepted in he N/T as well as much of other books Paul wrote. Don't you get it? I clearly left a link that showed how Paul contradicted or should I say hi jacked Christiainity.

Sorry Luke wrote acts.