Deism

[reznwerks]

Re: acts

Who knows? It certainly wasn't Jesus. As I said before Paul made claims that only he was witness too since no one can witness anothers vision.[/b]

how many people need to witness or be privy to something? just one other, atleast 1/2 the population or just you? :P

Paul wasn't the only one to have visions. John had visions. who was john inspired by? and if you say "I don't' know", they just make an educated guess.

It's not very hard to understand. Do you believe everyone that says that they have visions? If so a job in psychiatry is not for you as hospitals are overflowing with people that have visions and claim God talks to them. As to John having visions lets look at his lifestyle. He wandered in the desert eating whatever he found on the ground practiced a life of denial etc. Did you ever think that maybe his lifestyle contributed to his visions? As to Paul who knows if he had a vision or why. Maybe he had a guilty consiounce. Was the vision real? Maybe to Paul. We only have Pauls word for it and nothing more. Paul hijacked Christianity this is plain. Why? Perhaps for power and prestige. Back then there was a lot of power in the politics of religion. Power means money as well. Look at the John who wrote revelation. He did so while being banished on Patmos for years. You don't think this could have been the cause of his irrational writing?

 

[nuhmmie]

this is what I find so endearing about this thread:

the way inwhich most of your "rational" alternative theories/speculations as to what something must be to make logical sense to the outlandish idea that something has equal to or more the probability that it could be exactly what it says it is. ROFL

Paul had a vision. period. simple.

but the rational way of thinking about Paul had a vision is not that he had a vision but that he was lying or the victim of a gnostic conspiracy or that John the Baptist was delusional due to diet and exposure and that John the apostle was a victum of political corruptionso powerful, it induced maddness.

Yeah, that all makes much more sense, and it is far more rational to grasp as those straws then to just go with ....Paul had a vision. John the Baptist had a vision. John had a vision.

what's even better is that none of you come across as believing the crap you're spewing anymore then I do. You just seem to like to throw out "possibilities" that rationally should be closer to "the truth", in which even YOU wouldn't be convinced. :P

:smt116 <is this guy picking his nose? seriously, what is this smily doing? anyone?

 

[reznwerks]

rofl

this is what I find so endearing about this thread:

the way inwhich most of your "rational" alternative theories/speculations as to what something must be to make logical sense to the outlandish idea that something has equal to or more the probability that it could be exactly what it says it is. ROFL
If anyone is laughing it is I. What you are saying is that the ILLOGICAL makes perfect sense more often than not.

Paul had a vision. period. simple.
Fine , so what? Do you think it means anything? That is the issue. Can you somehow rationalize that Pauls claim to a vision means something for you? If so why? Is this logical?

but the rational way of thinking about Paul had a vision is not that he had a vision but that he was lying or the victim of a gnostic conspiracy or that John the Baptist was delusional due to diet and exposure and that John the apostle was a victum of political corruptionso powerful, it induced maddness.
Fine again. However are you working in your spare time to free all those locked up in mental institutions that claim God speaks to them and is trying to warn or communicate with us.

Yeah, that all makes much more sense, and it is far more rational to grasp as those straws then to just go with ....Paul had a vision. John the Baptist had a vision. John had a vision.
No again , I suppose it makes more sense to believe the illogical than the logical. All those you mention were subject to some severe stressors which could easily and probably cause one to have visions or halucinations.Thats not stretching it that is a likely scenario. Even if they did have visions why do you think it means anything for anyone else? This is wishful thinking on your part.

what's even better is that none of you come across as believing the crap you're spewing anymore then I do. You just seem to like to throw out "possibilities" that rationally should be closer to "the truth", in which even YOU wouldn't be convinced. :P
On the contrary I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. I don't think most of these people even lived let alone had visions that were meant as communication for everyone else on the planet. The possibilities are probabillities and the visions are not provable let alone warnings and advice for all of mankind. If a God exists he would be able to make known to one and all what his intentions are if he so desired and at the very least he would do it through people that would be believed, not people that would be considered odd to the society they lived in.

:

 

[nuhmmie]

Re: rofl

Fine again. However are you working in your spare time to free all those locked up in mental institutions ....

well, if I ever decide to, don't give up hope, one day, you'll be free. :wink:

... he would do it through people that would be believed, not people that would be considered odd to the society they lived in.[/color]

cut the crap rez. you STILL wouldn't be convinced and you know it, just admit it! who fits the "believable" catagory? and how many other people would be sitting there spewing crap as you are now because THEY didn't believe that the "believable" people were believable. that's illogical, captain.

it all boils down to the fact that you just don't want to believe. that's it. you aren't bringing up local reasons not to, you just think it sounds good enough to pass for 'reasoning'. but the real reason is, you just plain don't want it.

and the truth is, one day, this may all change. who knows. but you don't have anything figured out. you're like a prisoner born in a cell with no windows who scoffs at the prisoner who's talking about the sky. it's illogical and irrational because it doesn't exit, for if it did, you would have seen it from your cell.

relax man. the more you complicate things the less rational your 'logic' becomes. you're going to give yourself an aneurism. simplicity is the key to complexity.

breath! 8-)

 

[reznwerks]

Re: rofl

[

cut the crap rez. you STILL wouldn't be convinced and you know it, just admit it! who fits the "believable" catagory? and how many other people would be sitting there spewing crap as you are now because THEY didn't believe that the "believable" people were believable. that's illogical, captain.

it all boils down to the fact that you just don't want to believe. that's it. you aren't bringing up local reasons not to, you just think it sounds good enough to pass for 'reasoning'. but the real reason is, you just plain don't want it.

LOL! Wanting to believe and having reason to believe are entirely two different animals. If you readily believe the supernatural routinly associates with humans that is up to you. If you believe the laws of nature are routinely suspended to suit your desires that is up to you as well. If you believe all those fantastic storied in the bible without any outside evidence that is up to you as well. I guess you also make it a habit to grab the scandal sheets before you leave the grocery store to get caught up to date with the latest "truth" inside. As to your claim of "not wanting" to believe you couldn't be further from the truth. As I have said many times before if Christianity were true that is some deal. Who in their right mind would reject it? You walk the straight and narrow , claim to believe some fantastic tales even convince yourself they are true and when you die you live forever in la la land where all your problems have been solved. Really who would not go for that deal?

and the truth is, one day, this may all change. who knows. but you don't have anything figured out. you're like a prisoner born in a cell with no windows who scoffs at the prisoner who's talking about the sky. it's illogical and irrational because it doesn't exit, for if it did, you would have seen it from your cell.

No the truth is you are in a prison and Christianity tells you this. You are told that one day you will be free from your body and all the earthly problems you endure. As for illogical tell me where this la la land is and all the entities that inhabit it.

relax man. the more you complicate things the less rational your 'logic' becomes. you're going to give yourself an aneurism. simplicity is the key to complexity.

Complications? What is complicated is trying to make sense of Christianity. Can you tell me why a God who is all powerful can't make a creation without having an underling cut him off at the pass. Can you tell me how it makes sense that a God after being cut off at the pass has to send his son to die on the cross so he can save the rest of his creation. Can you tell me how killing Jesus paid any price and TO WHOM WAS THE PRICE PAID? WHO demanded that Jesus DIE? DO you understand what I am asking? When someone demands a price be paid there is a debtor. So how does Jesus dying solve the so called problem of mans sin?
Now tell me how does claiming to believe in the illogical make someone special and why? Now tell me why some 1400 different denominations can't all agree on what one book says and why the God of the universe could not cause a book to be written so all would understand it the same? I can go on and on but those questions should keep you busy for awhile.

breath! 8-)[/quote]

 

[nuhmmie]

Re: rofl

Complications? What is complicated is trying to make sense of Christianity. Can you tell me why a God who is all powerful can't make a creation without having an underling cut him off at the pass. Can you tell me how it makes sense that a God after being cut off at the pass has to send his son to die on the cross so he can save the rest of his creation. Can you tell me how killing Jesus paid any price and TO WHOM WAS THE PRICE PAID? WHO demanded that Jesus DIE? DO you understand what I am asking? When someone demands a price be paid there is a debtor. So how does Jesus dying solve the so called problem of mans sin?
Now tell me how does claiming to believe in the illogical make someone special and why? Now tell me why some 1400 different denominations can't all agree on what one book says and why the God of the universe could not cause a book to be written so all would understand it the same? I can go on and on but those questions should keep you busy for awhile.

breath! 8-)

okay, first things firt :
1. you are commanding me with "tell me". so, let's set the tone a wee bit more appropriately, okay?! because you are not actually in a position of authority over me. you ask, you don't tell me. :wink:

2. if I were inclined to answer just those questions you've posted, what are you offering me for my efforts? consideration? convesion? nothing? more "yeah, okay, but what about THESE NEW sets of question"? more arguments?

3. are you giving me the task of convincing you of God, Jesus, the state of man and lala land? seriously, are you trying to keep me "busy" for a good reason, or are you just employing yet another diversionary tactic.

4. what's the point? if you aren't willing to believe anything now, what is a compelling reason that if any of the questions were answered that you'd just suddenly snap to believing? you make all of these 'conditions' for people and things to be considered 'believable' to yourself, and all you have to do is say "you" (the person) or "it" (the thing) somehow doesn't qualify. you can ajust the bar to what ever you want and thus refuse for whatever reaon to 'believe'. that's just basic psychologly. there, so far, is no evidence that you'd actually be "fair" in your considerations.

oh yeah, and wanting and having reason are not a completely different animals for if you don't want to, then you'll see no reason to. you're heart convinces your mind, not the other way around.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: rofl

Complications? What is complicated is trying to make sense of Christianity. Can you tell me why a God who is all powerful can't make a creation without having an underling cut him off at the pass. Can you tell me how it makes sense that a God after being cut off at the pass has to send his son to die on the cross so he can save the rest of his creation. Can you tell me how killing Jesus paid any price and TO WHOM WAS THE PRICE PAID? WHO demanded that Jesus DIE? DO you understand what I am asking? When someone demands a price be paid there is a debtor. So how does Jesus dying solve the so called problem of mans sin?
Now tell me how does claiming to believe in the illogical make someone special and why? Now tell me why some 1400 different denominations can't all agree on what one book says and why the God of the universe could not cause a book to be written so all would understand it the same? I can go on and on but those questions should keep you busy for awhile.

breath! 8-)

okay, first things firt :
1. you are commanding me with "tell me". so, let's set the tone a wee bit more appropriately, okay?! because you are not actually in a position of authority over me. you ask, you don't tell me. :wink:
Get up on the wrong side of the bed today? LOL

2. if I were inclined to answer just those questions you've posted, what are you offering me for my efforts? consideration? convesion? nothing? more "yeah, okay, but what about THESE NEW sets of question"? more arguments?
Those questions are for you not for me. I know the answers.

3. are you giving me the task of convincing you of God, Jesus, the state of man and lala land? seriously, are you trying to keep me "busy" for a good reason, or are you just employing yet another diversionary tactic.
No , I am not giving you the task of convincing me of God or Jesus as I know that task would be impossible. Even encyclopedae Brittanical only uses the bible as reference as nothing else exists and no claims of proof is offered . The same is true if you look up Hercules. No one has ever been able to offer proof of God or Jesus that is why you must have faith. If it was real faith would not be needed.

4. what's the point? if you aren't willing to believe anything now, what is a compelling reason that if any of the questions were answered that you'd just suddenly snap to believing? you make all of these 'conditions' for people and things to be considered 'believable' to yourself, and all you have to do is say "you" (the person) or "it" (the thing) somehow doesn't qualify. you can ajust the bar to what ever you want and thus refuse for whatever reaon to 'believe'. that's just basic psychologly. there, so far, is no evidence that you'd actually be "fair" in your considerations.
If you have any reliable evidence for your claim please present it. The world has had 2000 years at the very least and so far it proof hasn't been provided. Yes people try to acknowledge a deity but that deity is strangly absent when it comes time to walk the walk. I have never seen God intervene in a court of law , or stop tragedy and when one prays to God whatever the result is always Gods will. The same results occur when one prays to a rock.

oh yeah, and wanting and having reason are not a completely different animals for if you don't want to, then you'll see no reason to. you're heart convinces your mind, not the other way around.
No you have it backwards again. My mind has convinced my heart based on a lack of believable evidence. I would love to have proof of the supernatural and the possibility of living forever. Its just not there.

 

[nuhmmie]

rez,

you're just playing games. :wink: